I don't mean to beat a dead horse, I know that this question has been posted before but it's not to be found in the last 36 pages for double rifles, so here goes pandora's box being opened once again.

1. Both get the job done on dangerous game, some would argue that the 400 is too light for elephant. IMO if you hunted elephant on a yearly basis or every other year I might agree, an elephant hunt a couple times in a life time I believe it will get the job done, and quite well.

2. Best over-all hunting round-400 shines.

3. Reloading components, ammo, bullets 470 shines, although in a couple of years with the Hornady ammo, brass the 400 might make some significant gaines in this catagory.

4. Weight of rifle, 400 shines

5. Recoil and coming out of recoil for second shot, 400 shines.

6. Stopping caliber 470 has significant edge, but IMO that's why there are PH's and if you put it where it counts charge is terminated.

7. If hunting in Africa at the present time and ammo does not arrive, with 470 pay up the yang and get some. With 400 your up the creek, borrow PH's spare rifle if he has one.

Open for argument and other comparisons.

Seems you have most of it.

I would emphasize that the Ph may not always be able to help or be able to stop a problem.

Also rifle wieght. Imo, a nice weight for a 400 should be 9lbs to 9 1/2lbs and no more. Too many 10 plus pound 450/400's out there. If you can get a light one super, but I wouldn't want to carry a 470 all day but then only have a 400 to shoot when the moment came.

Also I don't see where the 400 has much over the 470 for "all 'round" capability, unless it has claw mounts.

No real recoil control issues with the 470, if you are accustomed to it, and it is of adequate weight either.

JPK

A 450/400 is TOUGH to find in a vintage U.K. built example

at 10 pounds or less, REALLY TOUGH! 10.5 pnd and up

several out there right now. To sit in a tree or

hide all day so be it at the heavy weight. But

to hike all day with it you might as well have

something with 1000 FP more energy. Certainly

fine on the occasional ellie track say those

informed on this matter.

I agree if the cartridge alone is taken into consideration, then with vitals bullet placement, one is no better than the other between the 450/400NE 3", and the 470NE! A close to the vitals shot, the 470NE is better, but not by much.

I agree with JPK, that if I'm going to have to carry a 10 1/2, or 11 pound rifle anyway I'd much rather have something larger in the barrels, but I'd go dirrectly to the 500NE, and never look back. I also agree that if one gets a double in the 9, to 9 1/2 pound range I'd rather have a 450/400 Jeffery than any chambering that has ever been chambered in a double rifle.

Make no mistake, the 450/400 Jeffery is pleanty capable of takeing care of any sittutaion you run into, if you do your part, and if you don't do your part a 600NE is not enough. Still, one must assume that when the time comes, to stop a determined charge to the death of one, or the other of the buff, or the shooter, he will be alone,because he often is. In many cases in the last few years, the PH was the first one hit, and the clean-up was left to the client hunter. I've never agreed with the PH will pull your nuts out of the fire, so use what ever you want.

The 450/400s are much more versatile than a 470NE even in the same weight rifle, because recovery time is greatly shorter for the 400, to get off the all important second AIMED shot. With a shorter time for the second shot,also mean better recovery time for a RE-LOAD, for three, and four, as well!

The 400 shoots much flatter than the 470NE, and is therefore more capable of long shots even with irons. With Hornady now makeing brass, and loaded ammo, the supply is not a problem it once was.

It all boils down to what you want in a double rifle! If it hadn't been for the 1909 law, the 470NE class cartridges wouldn't even exist today, and the .458 dia 450s have a lot to qualify them over all the 470 class cartridges, and will do anything the 470NE will do, cheaper.

I've owned three different 450/400 3" doubles over the years, and several of the 470 class chamberings as well, and I see absolutely no difference in the way the two kill Buffalo. I have a brand new 470NE today, and I'd trade it for a 75 yr old 450/400NE 3" like the A&N I last had, in a heart beat, and not worry one whit about takeing on elephant in thick jesse! My Army&Navy 450/400 Jeffery was a trim little 9, 3/4 pound rifle, that was as accurate as any iron sighted rifle I've ever owned, and accounted for lots of game, both from ten yds, out to 200 yds, with multiple flip-ups for down range shooting, it was like the mail man, same place every time you pulled the trigger!

If I could have only three double rifles they would be, a 9.3X74R,scoped, a 450/400NE 3",also scoped, and a 500NE, with maybe a 500/450 NE thrown in for good measure.

Like horses, and women, ye takes ye pick, and live with the choice! They all are the same basic design, and will serve the purpose intended, but some serve my purposes better than others!

These discussions always seem so silly.

Unless you are hunting extensively, what real difference does it make what caliber is used?

You could ask for the same comparison between the 500, the 470, the 450/400, the 375, the 9.3x74R, etc.

One goes on one buff hunt, manages to shoot the buff in the general area of the correct spot, and the buff croaks in a reasonable time. Does it really matter what reasonable caliber is used?

Afterall, most of these self-aggrandizing hunters in the videos one sees, they shoot the buff in the wrong place, despite the PH proclaiming "Great shot, Bubba. You really hit him good. Blah, blah, blah." The buff runs off and has to be hammered repeatedly. "Wow, I really needed that 500 Stomper."

On the other hand, if you hunt enough, eventually you may be faced with a real charge or other life threatening situation and then is a 450/400 just as good as a 470? I don't think so.

There are times when the big gun is needed, and the 450/400 is not as effective as a 470, or a 500, or whatever. Few PH's are carrying little guns, whether they can shoot or not. (One should be skeptical of their PH's ability to shoot well. Afterall, the guys that get killed or maimed had PH's by their side!!!).

For the once in a lifetime elephant hunt, what amazes me most is the ignorance of most hunters as to where to shoot one. I have seen very few videos where the guy has any clue.

So if the double is used mostly at the range and rarely sees any action on dangerous game, it matters little whether it is a 450/400 or a 470. For that matter, just get a 9.3x74R as many have done here. Fun to shoot, cheap to shoot, and relatively little recoil, and if you know where you are suppose to shoot the animal, it matters little.

But once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun!

MacD37, that is the best commentary I've heard on this subject.


Dutch


Damn the man who talks shoot but won't wager a nickle on his gun or ability.

What Mac said!

Thank goodness Bill stepped in to save me from making that 400 Jeffery mistake! Oops! Too late!

This recoil recovery time issue is WAY overblown. There just isn't any recoil or recovery delay from a 450-470 class when it fits, it is a reasonable weight and you are accustomed to your rifle. There is no substantial muzzle rise either if you are properly holding the barrels.

Shooting at DG is just not the same physically or mentally as shooting at paper. There is no rock and roll absorbing of recoil. Hell, there is just enough felt recoil to know the rifle has fired and omly a barely audible report from what at the range is a loud boomer.

So far as an all 'rounder, the 450/400 only comes in first if it is light. If it weighs the same as a 470, might as well shoot a 470. Trajectory isn't different enough to mean anything and a bigger hole is ALWAYS better than a smaller hole in the same spot.

For more than 100 years, the stopping class rifles started at 450 and went up. Nothing in that 100 years has changed the grade. A 450 or 470 is still much more rifle than a 450/400, if you ever need it for that purpose.

You 450/400 afficienados take offense where none is ever intended. But you also want to pretend that the 450/400 is something it isn't. The 450/400 filled the role of the 375H&H decades ago. This is the cartridge it should be compared to, NOT the 450-470 range of rifles.

JPK

you will always be far better off with the 470

that is why it replaced the 450/400's

despite their renaissance today they are no better than they were when they were superceded
ages ago.

it's just something "new" to sell

quote:

by JPK:
So far as an all 'rounder, the 450/400 only comes in first if it is light. If it weighs the same as a 470, might as well shoot a 470. Trajectory isn't different enough to mean anything and a bigger hole is ALWAYS better than a smaller hole in the same spot.

This is sound thinking to me.

i wonder if the guys who love their 450/400 just can't handle the 450 and up class rifles ?

maybe too much recoil for them ?? there is no comparison in the power of the bigger calibers.

that caliber was obsoleted ages ago.... but since it is now being loaded again - first time in probably 75 years - it is NEW

well it is something NEW to peddle by the ammo makers and the rifle makers.... who seem unable to come up with many original ideas of any

lasting merit

quote:

i wonder if the guys who love their 450/400 just can't handle the 450 and up class rifles ? maybe too much recoil for them ??

Tomo:
You're really showing your ignorance here, as well as your poor attitude.

Many of us own a number of doubles up to .577 or more, but often choose to hunt with a .400. Why? Unlike you, we know what the cartridge can do in experienced hands!

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
i wonder if the guys who love their 450/400 just can't handle the 450 and up class rifles ?

maybe too much recoil for them ?? there is no comparison in the power of the bigger calibers.

that caliber was obsoleted ages ago.... but since it is now being loaded again - first time in probably 75 years - it is NEW

well it is something NEW to peddle by the ammo makers and the rifle makers.... who seem unable to come up with many original ideas of any

lasting merit

Just because it's not available in the US doesn't mean it's not being loaded by people.
- and Superior Ammo in the US load it to whatever you want.

As to can't handle the recoil, ha !

Got plenty of guns above 450/400 and I shoot
ttem more than the 450/400's but the 450/400's are more than capable.

WOW, did i pull the tail of you aussie lads.

in truth guys, and you know it, there is nothing in oz that can't be handled with the 375 holland as well as the old 450/400 which it replaced about 95 years ago.

why is it 450/400 guys are so touchy about this ??

btw - i have a 450/400 rodda that shoots very well, but i would leave it in the rack and take the 450 or 470 for hunting anytime.
or my 577

Tomo577

There's nothing in Africa that can't be handled by the 450/400 either.

A US friend purchased a Sidelock 450/400 from me and then went to Africa and dropped Elephant, Buff (and Lion) all in one day, no problems.

quote:

WOW, did i pull the tail of you aussie lads.

Yes, I must admit I find it strange that none of your own countrymen are willing to call you out for posting crap, seemingly for sport.

I think you've been pulling your own tail...

...only it's not a tail!

quote:

Originally posted by Marrakai:

quote:

WOW, did i pull the tail of you aussie lads.

Yes, I must admit I find it strange that none of your own countrymen are willing to call you out for posting crap, seemingly for sport.


I think you've been pulling your own tail...
...only it's not a tail!

Marakai,It is more than evident you haven't been visiting Accurate reloading lately! There has been a running gun battle here between Tom, and 400NirtroExpress, and a couple others for some time, with Tomo577 on one side, and all the others on the opposite side! All involved were Americans.

IMO, the reason you haven't seen it here is because most don't think they can't hold a light for the Aussie to run by, when it comes to flameing!

For myself, I couldn't care less what anyone posts, as long as it doesn't slander ME personally, but it wouldn't matter to me if the person were American, or an Ossie, if I felt like retaliating! However, I wouldn't take them on or let them slide, simply because they were a FELLOW COUNTRYMAN, or Take them on because they weren't!

Packy

I have killed elephant and cape buff with a 450 No2, a 450/400 3 1/4", and a 9,3x74R.

When hit in the right place I cannot tell any difference in performance.
In fact the 9,3 killed the buff much quicker than the other two, with only one shot, same for the elephant, one shot.

I think the 450/400 is a great choice, [probably the best] for a sport hunter.

If I was a PH I would be perfectly happy with my 450 No2.

Also I would not be the least bit worried to hunt buff and elephant again with the 9,3x74R double.

MacD37 / packrattusnongratus

Thanks for the background. Didn't realise we were feeding trolls so will not take any more bait !

I really couldn't give a rats ass which country someone is from, Aust, US, UK, India, Africa Midle East, if it's bullshit, I say so.
same as 400NitroExpress who does the same regardless of who / what they are.

See you on another post !

Mac and others:
Thanks for the 'heads up'. I only visit the 'Double Rifles' forum on AR, as the others are just so full of sledging that the firearm and hunting stuff is almost impossible to differentiate, if present at all! There are plenty of quality posters here though, so I'm happy to contribute. I didn't realise that you guys had actually 'run out of puff' responding to tomo's rubbish!

He's now on my troll list too. Thanks again, guys.

I think many have missed the underlying current that is perhaps here ie, no one doubts that bigger is better when it comes to stopping big game, however, presumably these guns get used many more times at the range than they do in the hunting field. That is where recoil and comfortable shooting comes to the front. When I take a double out of the safe for "fun" shooting it is invariably the 9.3x74R and not the 450 x 3 1/4. If I do take the latter, I probably do not shoot more than 10 rounds through it at a time. You can call me a wuss if you like (Tomo?) but it is not as much fun to shoot as the 9.3. Hence, perhaps, the search for the minimum caliber.
Peter.

quote:

I really couldn't give a rats ass which country someone is from, Aust, US, UK, India, Africa Midle East, if it's bullshit, I say so.
same as 400NitroExpress who does the same regardless of who / what they are.

ah,
New nick, old member!

450/400 fans,

For all your hubris, don't forget that the cartridge to compare the 450/400 with remains, as it always will, the 375H&H. Nothing wrong with either, but neither is a big bore stopper, no matter how much wishful thinking involved.

450 - 470 = stopping rifle = different league than the 375 or 450/400's.

And the next time I read some more wanton BS about the supposedly better trajectory of the 450/400 Vs. the 470 from yey another arm chair expert, I will be forced to provide the different velocity and trajectory numbers that prove that the 470 beats the 450/400. (hint, 8.4" drop at 200yds vs. 10"+, which do you think wins - not that that difference is material 'cause it ain't)

JPK

quote:

velocity and trajectory numbers that prove that the 470 beats the 450/400. (hint, 8.4" drop at 200yds vs. 10"+, which do you think wins - not that that difference is material 'cause it ain't)

I'd be glad to see that! I'm having difficulty with my 450/400 3 inch at 200+ yards.
Nothing more exciting than swatting your cape buffalo at 200 yards with your trusty double rifle!

quote:

The 400 shoots much flatter than the 470NE, and is therefore more capable of long shots even with irons. With Hornady now makeing brass, and loaded ammo, the supply is not a problem it once was.

Rusty,

The quote above comes from a 450/400 afficienado, in this thread, regarding comparative trajectories and touting the supposed "all 'round" capabilities of the 450/400. Like much of the commentary surrounding the 450/400, it is plainly false.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a good myth.

JPK

JPK,
I'd be glad to see your findings!

JPK

have you noticed how touchy these affecinados of the old 450/400 are ??

it is almost like you were assulting their mother to say anything but high praise for the 450/400.

maybe they just live in the past and haven't been informed about the advances in caliber since ..... 1910 - 1912 when mssrs Holland brought out the venerable 375

why they are so touchy eludes me.... any ideas ?

A 450-400 is a fine client round, and a properly weighted rifle is a pleasure to carry and shoot. However, I doubt that I will ever use one for elephant or buffalo hunting because my preference is to get as close to the game as possible. For that, there is no doubt that the bigger bores have a decided advantage. Especially since I cannot be counted to hit the brain each and every time.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

The 400 shoots much flatter than the 470NE, and is therefore more capable of long shots even with irons. With Hornady now makeing brass, and loaded ammo, the supply is not a problem it once was.

Rusty,

The quote above comes from a 450/400 afficienado, in this thread, regarding comparative trajectories and touting the supposed "all 'round" capabilities of the 450/400. Like much of the commentary surrounding the 450/400, it is plainly false.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a good myth.

JPK

Why are you bothering Rusty with this, that is my quote you posted, talk to me! AFFICIENADO????? I don't even own a 450/400NE double, though I've owned three in the past, and am sorry I had to sell the last one I had.

You are correct, the trejectory is nearly identical between the two, And I worded my post incorrectly! I assume what ever I say you will take the opposite tack, anyway so it doesn't matter. However, I'd bet I can hold four shots at 200 yds with a good 450/400, in a tighter group on the target than you will with a 470NEBoth with identical sights!

I have owned and hunted with both, and pleanty other double rifles in the last 49 years since I bought my first double rifle,at the age of 22 yrs, and this may not be true for you, but I find the 450/400NE 3" to be a far better choice for all round hunting than any double rifle chambered for 470NE! The 450/400 has less recoil in even lighter rifles, and the 400 gr long slinder, by comparison, bullets pennetrate very well. The rifles are simply easier to shoot well by most people. There is no question larger is better in a close encounter, but close encounters are not ALL-AROUND sittuations. Even then when the CNS is hit, both kill equally quickly.

We all have choices in life, and in the rifles/chamberings we like, and that is mine! Regardless of choice, which, though being a little strange, in your case, it evidently works for you, so far. I have shot big animals with just about every chambering that is well suited for double rifles,and many more with bolt rifles, and if the bullets are placed properly, I see absolutely no difference between the 450/400NE 3", the 458 WM, the 470NE class rounds, and between the .400 calibers, and the 577NE, my choice would be the 500/450NE, over any of the other .450s, and the next stop would be a 500NE, skipping the 470NE class alltogether.

I consider all the 400s to be a better choice for an ALL-AROUND than any 450, or 470 class double rifles, they are better choices for North American game, and are fine for anything in Africa for up to Cape buffalo, and are more than adiquate for Elephant. Combined with a 9.3X74R double, the two make a world over pair. The only draw-back to the 450/400NE is so many are found too heavy for caliber, but that even dampens the recoil further, makeing recovery time even quicker!

This is, as ,most here reccognize, only my opinion, and is not binding on anyone!

If a double rifle chambered for 458 Win Mag, or 470NE is what floats you boat,and it seems to,at least in 458 WM, be my guest. I have a 470NE, and I don't have a 450/400NE plus larger, and smaller doubles. So it seems to me with the choices I have it would be a little strange to favor the 450/400NE if I didn't think it was a better choice!

Rusty,

If by "your findings" you mean the more rainbow arch trajectory of the 450/400 vs. the flatter 470, follow the links below.

So much for the myth.

The 10" drop of the 450/400 I earlier alluded to is from Hornaday's site, the 470's 8.4" drop from Federal's. Both rifles sighted the same, with sights the same distance above the bore.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=8243

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ballist...l=2150&bulletwgt=500


JPK

Mac,

I replied to Rusty's post because he replied to mine.

"The 400 shoots much flatter than the 470NE, and is therefore more capable of long shots even with irons."

Your inaccurate comment above wasn't incorrectly worded, it was flat wrong. Clap like your comment regarding the trajectory of the 450/400 is just often repeated wives tale commonly used to justify the 450/400 vs. other (ussually larger) cartridges. Even the 458wm has a flatter trajectory with 500gr bullets than the 450/400 with its 400gr bullets.

I don't share a poor opinion of the 450/400, merely those who invent facts in an effort to pretend that it is more than it is.

Invented facts:
The 450/400 is a stopping rifle.
It is flatter shooting than a 470.
It was John Taylor's favorite.
Recoil of a 450-470 class rifle makes a 450/400 faster to shoot.
A 10lb 450/400 is easier to carry than a 10lb 470.
After carrying a 1olb 450/400 all day its much easier to shoot than a 10lb 470.

The list goes on and on.

If you want to see a better "all 'rounder" look below.




Same rifle, opposite ends of the spectrum. But according to you only the 450/400's are all 'rounders.

JPK

1.6 inches greater bullet drop for the 450/400 at 200 yards. That's a mighty big "Rainbow".
As best as I can figure the 10 pound 470 would have almost 60 Ft/lbs of recoil and the 400 Jeffery would have just shy of 33 ft/bls of recoil.

If my calculations are correct, and using the data from the links you provided.

I've never attempted to kill anything at 200 yards with my 400 Jeffery. Have you killed anything at that range with your 470?

I've never considered the 450/400 3 inch a stopper.

As far as favorites the only one that counts is me!

I shoot a 400 Jeffery becuase I like the round and I like ability to shoot it more than I would a 470. Recoil is an issue for me and a 10 pound rifle in 400 Jeffery is a lot easier on me than a 10 pound 470.

I presume by your statement that your 470 (is it a Searcy?) weighs 10 pounds?

.....Boy, I wish you guys wouldn,t argue like that ... Someone would think one of you had just called anothers pet caliber a [girl,s gun]......But I do like the pictures.....I and probably most readers can endure lots for a good picture or 2 ..............Mac is the only one I,ve read who likes multi leaf express sights ...........I realy do too......I think the 450/400 is a great all around caliber .. Almost as good as a 500/416////But a 458 is a great all around round also......JPK shoots a quatro sinquentaee ocho ....

Oh, Gumboot we ain't really arguing.

To be honest about double rifle rounds the 470 NE is the double rifle round that all others are judged by. It's been there, done that, and kicked ass and bought the T-shirt.

It happens to have more recoil than I like. I reload a 475#2 Jeffery for my friend David Guitar and in his 11 lb. rifle it's on the cuff of what I can tolerate. I detest a 500 NE, it beats me up! Especially in a 10 Lb. Merkel.

I chose the 400 Jeffery because it suits me and my hunting needs. It's just right for me! It is a good balance of performance vs recoil for me. I wouldn't expect anyone to share my views. I think they would like the round if they had a chance to use it as I have.
Just my opines.

As far as arguing goes, just a bunch of bulls pawing the ground!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

I replied to Rusty's post because he replied to mine.

"The 400 shoots much flatter than the 470NE, and is therefore more capable of long shots even with irons."

Your inaccurate comment above wasn't incorrectly worded, it was flat wrong. Clap like your comment regarding the trajectory of the 450/400 is just often repeated wives tale commonly used to justify the 450/400 vs. other (ussually larger) cartridges. Even the 458wm has a flatter trajectory with 500gr bullets than the 450/400 with its 400gr bullets.

I don't share a poor opinion of the 450/400, merely those who invent facts in an effort to pretend that it is more than it is.

Invented facts:
The 450/400 is a stopping rifle.
It is flatter shooting than a 470.
It was John Taylor's favorite.
Recoil of a 450-470 class rifle makes a 450/400 faster to shoot.
A 10lb 450/400 is easier to carry than a 10lb 470.
After carrying a 1olb 450/400 all day its much easier to shoot than a 10lb 470.

The list goes on and on.

If you want to see a better "all 'rounder" look below.

Same rifle, opposite ends of the spectrum. But according to you only the 450/400's are all 'rounders.

JPK

Well! I guess you told me!

Your just miffed because I don't like you 458 Win Mag in a double rifle, and you have to have something to come back with, that's all. Only the one item makes the 470NE less of an ALL ROUNDER and that is recoil. In a ten pound 470NE you gonna get kicked, and the 450/400NE 3" is a pussycat in the same weight rifle! You can talk till you are BLUE, and that will not change!

By the way, Nice ELE!

Rusty,

I don't own a 470, and as Gumboot pointed out my rifle is a 458. It weighs 10 1/2lbs. You can see my rifle in the two photos I posted above. IMO, 10-10 1/2lbs is right for a 450-470.

Your two most recent post are a refreshing review of good and real reasons for someone to own and love a 450/400, and are quite different than the litany of inventions often used, such as the trajectory bunkum.

If I needed to shoot something at 200 yards I would switch rifles with a tracker, as I have in the past, and shoot it with my scoped 375H&H pushing a 300gr bullet at 2550fps. Why handicap yourself? 200yds is a damn long shot for me and I've only killed a handful of game at that range.

The furthest I have shot a living creature with my double is the klipspringer pictured above. I shot him at 75yds from the sitting position. I used a North Fork 450gr solid.

How 'bout you, what is the longest range you have shot an animal with your double?

JPK

I really did'nt want to get in on this thread because to me calibers are kind of like open end wrenches they all have there application.

The first time I hunted klippspringer I used a bolt action scoped .308 and couldent seem to connect. on my next trip over I had a scoped 30-06 drilling. I did take a mountain reedbuck at 250 yards with it but still no klippie.

Now you guys are doing it with open sighted big bore doubles. OK I'm not worthy

I have taken an Eland cow at 120 yards with my 400 Jeffery. I thought it was less than 100 yds when I shot, but later after stepping it off it was 120.

I would not shoot at a smaller animal at that range. Range is becoming more of an issue with me. With failing eyesight and iron sights, it either see the sights or the target but not both.

My new Chapuis 9.3X74R will sport a Kahles 1.1X4X24 electrodot/circle scope. I hate to put a scope on the Hollis, but I may have to do that.

In truth doubles are about hunting close up. Stalking games, tracking and getting in close. That really makes it the most fun about shooting a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Your just miffed because I don't like you 458 Win Mag in a double rifle, and you have to have something to come back with, that's all. Only the one item makes the 470NE less of an ALL ROUNDER and that is recoil. In a ten pound 470NE you gonna get kicked, and the 450/400NE 3" is a pussycat in the same weight rifle! You can talk till you are BLUE, and that will not change!

By the way, Nice ELE!

No Mac you are wrong. I just get tired of innaccurate baloney and bull passed on and on and on and the constant invention of bull to perpetuate old wives tales and myths with no bearing on reality.

In your most recent post you bring up recoil again. Felt recoil is subjective so if 450-470 class rifle's recoil is a problem for you it is a problem for you. It isn't a problem for everyone. The limitation is yours not the cartridges. It is a limitation we all have at some point in the recoil spectrum, but not nessecarily at the 450-470 level.

Good to see that you have abanadoned the myth regarding the 450/400's trajectory. Only accurate information is useful and valueble.

The elephant is nice but the klipspringer is actually the better trophy, and the more noteable one for having been taken with a big bore double rifle.

JPK