quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
For your information (also relating to Dan's post) most of you know Ian Nynschens passed away in December 2006. Buz Charlton just picked up Ian's double in 450#2 and will be carring that rifle. You can talk to him yourself but I believe he thinks the double might be better in a jam than a bolt configuration not so much that he felt that he was under gunned with the 416.

.........And with that I agree, even of both were the same chambering! That is not only aplicable to elephant, but stopping anything that bite, scratches, or stomps!

There are 3 discrete states:

1. Undergunned.

2. Adequate cartridge but not a stopper.

3. A stopping cartridge.

Let's not confuse them. The .416 and 450-400 are in category 2.

quote:

The .416 and 450-400 are in category 2.

Someone alert the media and break out the good whisky! I can agree on something Dan said!

quote:

whisky

You mean WhiskEy, right?

I agree with Dan on that as well, but then I agree with most things Dan says, almost!I'd say the 416, and 450/400,are just ADEQUATE for stopping.

Whisky, or wiskEy, you can pour both back in the donkey! That is, if you don't particularly like the donkey!

Mac,

I have a hell of alot more experience than I believe you think I have. But in any event, I have never felt the need to limit my learning to only my experiences. For example, I am quite comfortable with the principles of flight, though I have never designed, built or flown a plane. Likewise, I am sure that the Astronauts who fly the space shuttle are real experts, damn sure they have never owned even one.

A comment you ought to reflect on, "A smart man learns from his experience, but a smarter man learns from the experience of others."

On recoil, the point of directing you to the DVD's and video cited is that it allows you to see the lack of reaction to recoil and the absence of muzzle rise for many different shooters shooting big bore rifles at game from the third person perspective and not from behind the rifle. Recoil from a 450-470 class rifle is not sufficient to create a physical reaction of any note in a person shooting at game who is accustomed to shooting that range of rifle. Physics tells us that there is a difference in recoil between a BB gun and a 22, but the difference is insignificant if not imperceptible in reality. When shooting at game, the 450-470 class rifles fall into the insignificant and imperceptible range - take a look at the videos and DVD's, they demonstrate this well.

Your quote:
"even a heavy 450/400NE is 10.8 lbs MAX."

Bull. Just do your self a favor and look at the 450/400's that 500 Grains has posted in this thread.

Your quote:
"however, even at the same weight, the recovery time will be faster with the 450/400."

There is no recovery time for the shooter familiar with his rifle and shooting at game with 450-470 class rifles.

Your quote:
"If you knew as much as you profess, you would know that in the case of Buffalo, the only thing that will make any rifle a stopper, once he is wounded, is a shot that dirrectly disrupts the CNS."

This is flatly wrong. Buffalo may be unlikely to be turned and may be difficult to stop without a cns hit, but plenty are turned and stopped with other than cns hits. Try those DVD's and video's again, there are several instances in just those cited where buff are stopped without a cns hit.

Your quote:
"but the difference between a 500 gr bullet, and a 400 gr bullet is not going to be noticed by said buffalo, is the 500 gr is close enough to shock the CNS, the 400 gr bullet will shock it as well."

How the heck could you know?

100 years fo history, and more, argue against this line of reasoning.

You quote:
"Notions, I might add, that are not based on actual experience with the rifle/cartridge combinations you profess to know so much about."

Your additional quote:
I do not like, and consider a second best choice, nothing more.

So in YOUR OPINION its OK for you to have opinions and for no one else?

At least my statements are supported by fact and history, your's...well old wives' tales and just plain inaccurate facts.

You may not like my factual citations or other cited sources, you may disagree, but they are there and not dismissable. Respond with your own if you can, but try to get it right unlike the max weight of 450/400's or the trajectory of the 450/400 vs 470 or any of a host of other assertions.

While we're at it, since you keep telling how the performance of the 450/400 is on par with the 450-470 class for buff and elephant and making direct comparisons, why don't you fill me in on your exoeriences with each calibre for each animal?

JPK

400 Nitro Express,

You have me at the disadvantage of being at the office, away from my library. I will tryo to respond in detail this evening.

In the meantime note two things, Taylor voted for the 450 and 465 in reality since those are the two whith which he killed by far the most elephants.

Taylor prefered H&H rifles "because they are most often built a pound or more lighter."

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mark,

I disagree on the weight of a 450-400. If it weighs 10 pounds, you are carrying a .470 but getting a .400. What is the advantage of that? I could certainly carry a 10 pound .308 on a deer hunt, but I would rather carry a 7 pound rifle in that caliber.

As for Heym, aren't they using the same frame for the .500 NE, .470 NE and 450-400?

Dan:

I disagree that 10 lbs is a normal or appropriate weight for a .470.

Yes, the Heym .400 will be built on the .470 frame, which is a bit small for the .470 to begin with. Heym's .375 is 9.5 lbs, and their .470s usually come in right at 10. Target weight for the .400 is 9.5, but will likely be slightly more.

With respect to the British rifles (which is what most .400s are), the 9.5 lb. .400 is mostly myth. Most were built on .450 actions - its a .450 basic case and the action size is needed. They'll have a slimmer barrel profile in front of the chambers, but that's about it. I've handled a few Jeffery's that were just under 10, but they were over 9.5, and were 24" barrels which I don't like. A friend has a nice Webley built .400 that he swore was 9.25, but when he actually put it on the scales, it was well over 10.

Again, 10 lbs for a .400 is about right given what the normal British .465s and .470s typically weigh - 10.5 wasn't common, and most are 10.75 to 11.25. Looking at an old catalogue last night, Holland's .465 Royal was listed at 10.5 and Purdey's best .465 was listed at 11.25. The .470s listed were heavier than the .465s. I handled a best sidelock Westley .470 a while back that was over 12.

Some of the new continental .470s are 10 lbs or slightly over, but look how many of those end up with .75 lb of mercury shoved up their ass. I've shot my share of those and can understand why they end up that way. It doesn't make sense to build them that light.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
400 Nitro Express,

Taylor voted for the 450 and 465 in reality since those are the two whith which he killed by far the most elephants.

Even if true, which I doubt, Taylor gives us no clue as to when he first tried the .400. Whether earlier or later, it really doesn't matter. By the time he wrote his book, he clearly had changed his mind in favor of the .400. His words make this irrefutable.

quote:

Taylor prefered H&H rifles "because they are most often built a pound or more lighter."

I think it was a lot more than that. Besides, that wasn't the case with the .400. That rifle was a Webley A & W C with 26" barrels, which means it weighed 10.5 lbs. The Webley built .400s in that model are pretty uniform.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Actually the spelling of Scotch Whisky was set forth by no other than Poet Bobby Burns.

You can have Bourbon Whiskey, you can have corn or sour mash Whiskey.

However the only Scotch you can drink will be Whisky!

Always glad to stand you to a wee dram or two when we get together! Perhaps I can bring you a real Cubana to smoke with that Single Malt Whisky!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

IYour quote:
"even a heavy 450/400NE is 10.8 lbs MAX."

Bull. Just do your self a favor and look at the 450/400's that 500 Grains has posted in this thread.

I'm going to answer you one more time, and I'm through feeding your trolling!

I did not say there were no 450/400s above 10.8 lbs, what I did say is, 10.8 is the absolute max one should weigh, and I wouldn't want one that heavy.

quote:

Your quote:
"however, even at the same weight, the recovery time will be faster with the 450/400."

There is "NO" recovery time for the shooter familiar with his rifle and shooting at game with 450-470 class rifles.

What I meant even if the 450/400 weighed 10.8 and the 470 the same the recovery time would be shorter for the 450/400, because of 33 ft lbs less recoil. And don't come here with stupid statement that there is no recovery time between shots, or that it is not effected by recoil, that statement is simply idiotic, no other way to say it! There is always an opposite, and equal reaction to every physical action. By your example a .22 lr weighting 7 lbs would have the same recovery time as a 30-30 weighing 7 lbs. When even the .22 has recovery time getting back on target,after a shot, and the 30-30 would have the same recovery time according to you. JPK that is just plain dumb, to even suggest there is not recovery time between shots on any large rifle above a BB gun.

quote:

Your quote:
"but the difference between a 500 gr bullet, and a 400 gr bullet is not going to be noticed by said buffalo, is the 500 gr is close enough to shock the CNS, the 400 gr bullet will shock it as well."

How the heck could you know?

Let's look closely at that last question! How do you know it it is wrong? You don't!

quote:

You quote:
"Notions, I might add, that are not based on actual experience with the rifle/cartridge combinations you profess to know so much about."

OK, let's talk about that How many 470NEs have you owned? How many 470NEs have you hunted with? How many 450/400s have you ever seen, much less hunted with, or owned? I thought so NONE!

quote:

Your additional quote:
I do not like, and consider a second best choice, nothing more.

That is a purposefull miss-quote! what I said is you were simply miffed because I didn't like your choice of a 458 WM ior any other rimless, or belted rimless cartridge in a double rifle, and my opinion that it that it is a second best choice nothing more. If you intend quoteing me, don't take my words out of context!

quote:

So in YOUR OPINION its OK for you to have opinions and for no one else?

I have no problem with you, or anyone else haveing an opinion that is opposed to mine, but not once in any of my posts till this did I suggest you ere lieing, or talking to you with the sarcasm you started out with on this thread! I know you think you are right, but that is no excuse for poor manners, simply because we disagree, and to imply I'm some how lacking in integraty! IMO, that was uncalled for!

quote:

At least my statements are supported by fact and history, your's...well old wives' tales and just plain inaccurate facts. You may not like my factual citations or other cited sources, you may disagree, but they are there and not dismissable.

IN YOUR OPINION! They are credable simply because you read those citations, that agree with you, and that's as far as you go!

quote:

Respond with your own if you can, but try to get it right unlike the max weight of 450/400's or the trajectory of the 450/400 vs 470 or any of a host of other assertions.JPK

I think you need to find a course in reading comprehension! DAMN! Now I'm through with you! IGNORE!

Mac,

Like you I'll give this a last go.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

IYour quote:
"even a heavy 450/400NE is 10.8 lbs MAX."

Bull. Just do your self a favor and look at the 450/400's that 500 Grains has posted in this thread.

I'm going to answer you one more time, and I'm through feeding your trolling!

I did not say there were no 450/400s above 10.8 lbs, what I did say is, 10.8 is the absolute max one should weigh, and I wouldn't want one that heavy.

OK, I read that "a heavy 450/400 weighs 10.5MAX" to mean that a heavy 450/500 weighs 10.5 max - as in an absolute, not "in your opinion", "as your would prefer" as you intended.

quote:

Your quote:
"however, even at the same weight, the recovery time will be faster with the 450/400."

There is "NO" recovery time for the shooter familiar with his rifle and shooting at game with 450-470 class rifles.

What I meant even if the 450/400 weighed 10.8 and the 470 the same the recovery time would be shorter for the 450/400, because of 33 ft lbs less recoil. And don't come here with stupid statement that there is no recovery time between shots, or that it is not effected by recoil, that statement is simply idiotic, no other way to say it! There is always an opposite, and equal reaction to every physical action. By your example a .22 lr weighting 7 lbs would have the same recovery time as a 30-30 weighing 7 lbs. When even the .22 has recovery time getting back on target,after a shot, and the 30-30 would have the same recovery time according to you. JPK that is just plain dumb, to even suggest there is not recovery time between shots on any large rifle above a BB gun.


I don't agree, I believe that the recoil of a 450-470 class rifle is below the threshhold where recoil would require more than insignificant recovery, below the level that there is any difference between a 375 or 400 or 450-470 so long as the shooter is accustomed to his rifle and there is game in front of the sights. Look at the cited DVD's and Videos there is no perceptible recoil to the shooter when looking from the third person point of view. Having been behind the trigger I can tell you that it is the same from this perspective as well.

quote:

Your quote:
"but the difference between a 500 gr bullet, and a 400 gr bullet is not going to be noticed by said buffalo, is the 500 gr is close enough to shock the CNS, the 400 gr bullet will shock it as well."

How the heck could you know?

Let's look closely at that last question! How do you know it it is wrong? You don't!

I don't know for sure, but common sense, my experience and those of all others in the preceding 100+ years are in support of my position and in opposition to your unqualified, as in absolute, assertion.

quote:

You quote:
"Notions, I might add, that are not based on actual experience with the rifle/cartridge combinations you profess to know so much about."

OK, let's talk about that How many 470NEs have you owned? How many 470NEs have you hunted with? How many 450/400s have you ever seen, much less hunted with, or owned? I thought so NONE!

I have seen game killed with a 470 and shot and handled 470's, only handled 450/400's. Like I said, why carry a 470 all day just to shoot a 400. And again, 100+ years of history support the notion that a 450-470 is more effective on game than a lighter rifle. Why carry the heavy rifle weight to only shoot the light rifle when it comes time.

quote:

Your additional quote:
I do not like, and consider a second best choice, nothing more.

[COLOE:BLUE] That is a purposefull miss-quote! what I said is you were simply miffed because I didn't like your choice of a 458 WM ior any other rimless, or belted rimless cartridge in a double rifle, and my opinion that it that it is a second best choice nothing more. If you intend quoteing me, don't take my words out of context! [/COLOR]

quote:

So in YOUR OPINION its OK for you to have opinions and for no one else?

No misquote about it. That is verbatim from your post. It highlights the absolute intolerance for pointing out factual and other errors like the plainly false notion that the 450/400 has "a much flatter trejectory than the 470" I don't care what speed you want to push the 400, 2050 or 2150 or the 470, 2050 or 2150 that statement is a false old wives tale. And so I thought the "450/400 weighs MAX 10.5lb" until you explained what you were trying to get across. Like wise the notion that a 400 grain bullet has the same effect as a 500 grain bullet or that buff are ONLY stopped with a cns hit.

I have no problem with you, or anyone else haveing an opinion that is opposed to mine, but not once in any of my posts till this did I suggest you ere lieing, or talking to you with the sarcasm you started out with on this thread! I know you think you are right, but that is no excuse for poor manners, simply because we disagree, and to imply I'm some how lacking in integraty! IMO, that was uncalled for! [COLOR]

[COLOR:GREEN][COLOR:GREEN]The only implication in my posts is that what you have said on some issues is against history ot plainly false. Wrong is wrong, inaccurate is inaccurate. That you even begin to entertain the thought that pointing this out is tantamount to questioning your integrity or your truthfulness, in the sense of your honesty, is only evidence of your intolerance for different opinion and for having basic factual errors pointed out.[/color]

quote:

At least my statements are supported by fact and history, your's...well old wives' tales and just plain inaccurate facts. You may not like my factual citations or other cited sources, you may disagree, but they are there and not dismissable.

IN YOUR OPINION! They are credable simply because you read those citations, that agree with you, and that's as far as you go!

No, I look just as hard for contrary information as I do for supporting information. For example, on the trajectory issue, I looked far and wide for other tables that would show the 450/400 at the 3 1/4" velocities rather than at the 3" velocities and was unable to find any. I did find additional 470 tables but the data was the same, probably the same data rehashed even. Likewise for ANY other issue, I look as dillegently, or more so, for contrary information.

quote:

Respond with your own if you can, but try to get it right unlike the max weight of 450/400's or the trajectory of the 450/400 vs 470 or any of a host of other assertions.JPK

I think you need to find a course in reading comprehension! DAMN! Now I'm through with you! IGNORE!

What can I say to that? there is no comprehension issue with statements like "the 450/400 has a much flatter trajectory that the 470...", it was just plain factually wrong. And your passage "a heavy 450/400 weighs 10.5lbs MAX" is, at best, inartfully drafted. Absolut assertions that 400 and 500 grain bullets have the same effect need no interpretation. You are simply intolerant when your "facts" are are challenged.

JPK

This sure has become a colorful discussion

............Are they done pawing yet.......For a while I couldn,t tell what was goin on.......500gr Thank You for posting all the beautiful double rifle pics...........Even the ugly ones are beautiful.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gumboot

What was going on was a spirited discussion of the effectiveness of nitro express cartridges on dangerous African game.

And THAT discussion was originally started in response to a bold new theory started on the Alaskan forum - that being, brown bears aren't elephants. You can naturally imagine, that such an Earth shattering statement has led to quite a bit of spirited discussion. I can quite honestly say that never before has such a bold assertion been made in the world of dangerous game hunting.

The "theory" (we'll call it that for now) that brown bear and elephant may be two separate and distinct species has turned the hunting world on its head. This postulate is having the same impact in the world today as assertions eons ago that the Earth was not flat, that the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa, and that the practice of bleeding the sick was not conducive to good health.

I am sure you can appreciate the utter chaos this theory has caused within the hunting community. On the one side we have the group who believes brown bear are not elephants. They are a different color. On the other side you have the skeptics, who point out that they have never seen an elephant or brown bear together - so the brown bear may just be an elephant evolved to deal with colder climates.

It is questionable whether this theory will be conclusively addressed in our lifetimes. And, until the day science resolves this issue, there will be turmoil in the hunting community.

Hope this helps.

I would like to go on record as a member of the brown bears are elephants club.
I have taken several brown bears and don't have the money for a elephant. It's kind of nice to know I already have one.

Geez Jim Manion, you are far and away my intellectual superior. I just thought it was a pissing contest. Now that you have pointed it out, I see where I missed the subtle nature of the debate Please continue to point these out to us plebians! I just thought they were talking about the ideal weight of a 450-400. I really need to read these things much more carefully.
Peter.

What does the "new" Heym PH 450/400 weigh?

I assume this "debate" is as valid as ever

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
What does the "new" Heym PH 450/400 weigh?

I assume this "debate" is as valid as ever

Check with Chris--

http://www.heymusa.com/88_B_PH.htm

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

What does the "new" Heym PH 450/400 weigh?

Probably too much

Not uncommon for the HEYM PH in 470 to weigh VERY near 10 lb and

I know of at least one of them that was 9 lb 12 oz. So it's very likely

to me that the 450/400 will be 9/3 thru 10 even. A good range for that

caliber rifle to fall in I think.

Random Thoughts.

I visited with Ian in Harare before his death.
His 450 No2 was lost in the river when his boat overturned. He replaced it with a 450 3 1/4", which he never liked as well as the 450 No2.

REAL WHISKY has no E.

I think 9 3/4 to 10lbs is perfect for a 450/400.

I like 10 1/2 to 11 1/2 lbs for a 450/475 double.

My 450 No2 had 28" bbls and weighs @ 11 3/4 lbs.
I consider it perfect and would not change a thing.

I have taken game over 150 to near 200 yards with my iron sighted doubles in 450/400, and 450 No2. I have taken game a little over 300 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R.

It is simply a matter of a fair amount of practice at those ranges.

There is not doubt that a 450/475 double is a bigger hammer than a 450/400.

But IMHO a 450/400 is hammer enough.

I consider the 9,3x74R a little light for cape buff and elephant. BUT, my biggest cae buff in horn and body was taken with my 9,3 and one 286gr Woodleigh Soft. I shot an elephant with it at 5 yards, one shot side brain.

You are much better off to have a rifle you can handle, than a Cannon you cannot.

When choosing a double consider your age, physical ability, recoil tolerance, and its shootability.

AzGuy: I had the opportunity to weigh a Heym 450/400 with 26" barrels and a semi beavertail forend. On an accurate scale it weighed 10 pounds 4 ounces.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
AzGuy: I had the opportunity to weigh a Heym 450/400 with 26" barrels and a semi beavertail forend. On an accurate scale it weighed 10 pounds 4 ounces.

Then, if you put a scope on it as some seem to want to do, you are pushing eleven pounds! That's an awful lot of gun for such a modest caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
AzGuy: I had the opportunity to weigh a Heym 450/400 with 26" barrels and a semi beavertail forend. On an accurate scale it weighed 10 pounds 4 ounces.

Wow, IMO that's a pig for that caliber as Dave Bush stated put a scope on it and your at 11 pounds. That would be the weight of my 500 N.E. (11 pounds) which I think is perfect for the 500, again weight per caliber is a personal thing.

Wow, that was so entertaining, I only wish I had baited my grandma and her friends to argue between Tide and Cheer.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
AzGuy: I had the opportunity to weigh a Heym 450/400 with 26" barrels and a semi beavertail forend. On an accurate scale it weighed 10 pounds 4 ounces.

Go to a splinter forend and I bet you loose at least 4 OZ, maybe 6 or 7.

Adding in the weight of the scope I do not like. What does a typical 416

Rigby or 416 Rem Mag bolt action rifle weigh without scope or mounts?