I have been wondering if Sabatti will hurt sales of the lower priced doubles like Merkels and Krieghoffs? What do you think?

dave

i dont think so, from what i can see, they attract new people to our little niche of the hunting and shooting sport, which is allways nice.

i suspect some of them will only be here for a short while and hopefully quite a few of them will stay for the duration and enrich us with their company and hunting stories.

the affordble double market is booming even though the world is on the low burner financially. i do belive that there is a place for these guns as well as for the german strands and the not so affordble higher end guns.

best

peter

I think it already has hurt them, but IMO it's temperary. The price isn't everything with people who want a double rifle used to drag their bacon out of the fire! One that has more chamce of longer term enroads into their customer base is the Varney-Carron. Of course the Sabatti could improve if they only made them a little more massive weighted properly for the chamberings, and get a little more consistancy with their regulating. $5800 SRP simply wont buy much hand work most double rifle people want in their rifles!
I think they will hurt K-guns more than Merkel, but I have a couple of Merkels and have handled, and shot the Sabattis. I wouldn't trade a used Merkel for a brand new Sabatti. Time will tell however!

.............. Just my .2 cents

I don't know...


I think folks looking for a first DR might like the idea of 5k as opposed to at least 8k+. Also people who already have a "higher grade" DR and want another (or more) DR, would like 5k price tag. So to people in either of these positions, a Sabatti might be just what they are looking for.


But personaly (considering my experiences) I don't think they have a chance of hurting Merkle or Krighoff.

They might here at first. But in the long run, I think that Merkle's and Kreighoff's established reputation, great customer service, and their warranty, would make them a considerably wiser choice.

That is, someone who has the 3k extra for a Merkle or Kreighff.


Just my humble opinion.

I'm a happy owner of a Sabatti 45-70 that my wife suprised me with on my birthday. I have had the itch for a double since I held a browning conversion in 7mm Rem Mag at the wee age of 10!

That being said, I was lucky enough to marry into a family that loves hunting and my father-in-law shoots a Chapuis 470 to boot. I've reloaded for his 470 and love to shoot it. For someone that didn't own a DR I've had exclusive use on for some time now.

Where I live we own a small strip of property next to a bird refuge and have taken some whopper muleys off of the property. Because the duck hunt is going on during the deer hunt we have to be careful what rifle we use. I wouldn't want to kill a duck hunter's dog (don't care much for the hunters themselves though). So I decided that a 45-70 DR would be perfect meds for those deer. I was looking at others but when the Sabatti came out it was icing on the cake.

The best part is that the gun actually shoots pretty decent. I haven't put it on paper yet, but have been able to shoot pop cans off hand at 50 yrds. I'll have to wait till the thaw hits to put it on paper but don't worry, I'll let you all know how it shoots.

I don't think so, Merkels have an outstanding reputation and cost significantly more, but I'll tell you what will dent the Merkel, K, and Heym market are the VCs. I looked hard at all three at DSC and the VCs at least looked like better guns. I'm a new guy at this, but you guys with lots of double time under your belt might know best. jorge

A Sabatti in Europe is a $2000 double rifle, with known quality problems.

Merkel, Krieghoff, Blaser, and Heym offer a more expensive gun that works.

Just because they are new in the USA, doesn't mean they are new in Europe.

:::SIGH:::

I think Sabatti's are doing a good job of letting folks try out a Double , a 9.3X74 & 45/70 for less than $3000 I think I have seen in Canada , puts a stopper on Shotgun conversions & rooted old NE getting far more than they are worth (lots are worth nothing) Will even effect BPE gun's I belive , I think in the long run , if most of them work , it will effect the price of non collectable DR , right now people are paying collector prices on gun,s that are far from that , because the price has been dragged up by SOME fine rifles !

D99,

Why does your location line show Australia? Are you not living in Wyoming? When did you last price a Sabatti NE in Italy or were you quoting $2000 for the smaller calibers? Please define the "known quality problems" you refer to. Since you are a USNavy active duty (armorer for past 10 yrs) sailor of 36 years age, I am curious as to where and how you've gained all your knowledge in so few years and limited education. BTW, the Sabatti NE DRs that Cabela's is selling are different from the Sabatti catalog guns; did you know that? They are NOT the DR sold in Europe.

Jorge,

DOUBLE:::SIGH:::X2

Lion, he's USN, so maybe he's stationed in Aus now. You are correct on your assessment regarding the differences between the US Sabatti DRs and the euro catalogued guns. Still "sighing" though

jorge-

Thanks for the correction. (I fixed it) Navy armorer, somehow that seems to make it worse , yes? When I was in the Corps, the Navy still had active 16" guns (naval rifles?) but no DRs as far as I know . And yeah, I'm still "sighing" too.

See you Wednesday evening 1/26 in Reno at the AR get together?

Semper Fi

Absolutely it will hurt them. Some guys want a double and were forced to buy a Merkel or K gun because that was the starting point. Don't forget VERY few double rifles are sold in the US every year so lets say 50-100 guys go for the Sabatti instead of one of the others this year, that's a huge decrease in demand.

Think of it like this, years ago nobody wanted double rifles because ammo was so hard to come by so it was easy and cheap to get a good gun. As the the years passed and ammo came back the the supply dried up and prices went up. When these old doubles got over priced that opened the door for Heym, K guns and Merkel to make money in the $8-$15K market. As Searcy and Heym started to price themselves out of the market with constant price increases the door was opened for others to step in and make money at a lower price point. Sabatti is the beginning not the end, other gun makers will see the money that can be made in "affordable" double rifles in the $5k and under market.

Guys need to stop drinking the Kool-aide that a Heym is worth $18K, it ain't. Searcy was making money selling rifles at 7K and he is making more at $12-$15K. Want to guess the average increase in income over the last 10 years as Searcy raised prices? Average income was DOWN not up.

The number of guys that "need" a double to take to Africa is a very small number in the scheme of things. The number of guys buying doubles and dreaming of these hunts is currently very high but as more and more of them exit the market we will become flooded with way more big bore stopping guns then we could ever possibly need. There are currently 190 "African double rifles" for sale on Guns International right now, 190!!! That is a ton of supply for a very tiny sub set of hunters/collectors. Champlin's has 47 alone! When doubles were cheap you couldn't find any, now that they are way overpriced they are everywhere.

GeoffM24-

Great analysis, supported with both current data and historical perspective relevant to the topic. Anyone who believes the U.S. DR market is static/stable in its' current permutation is delusional.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I don't think so, Merkels have an outstanding reputation and cost significantly more, but I'll tell you what will dent the Merkel, K, and Heym market are the VCs. I looked hard at all three at DSC and the VCs at least looked like better guns. I'm a new guy at this, but you guys with lots of double time under your belt might know best. jorge

Since I'm new to DRs, and not too familiar with VCs, might I ask what they go for $ in the U.S.?

Geoff may be right but on the other hand, people who buy supercars (Lambo, Ferrari, etc.) won't buy a Vette, Viper or even a Porsche though they may come close, equal or even exceed the performance of the Lamborghini or Ferrari at a much lower price. That price point will, though, allow some folk to experience much of the excitement and performance they would never otherwise had the opportunity to try.
Time will tell I guess.

I don't remember throwing my qualifications into the argument.

But obviously you stalked me on AR, just to trash me since I don't like your $4000 Italian gun.

If it works for you and you like it then shoot it, I don't agree with your assessment.

I don't think it is unsafe, I shot both the side by side and over and under 9.3x74R double rifles made by Sabatti when I lived in Spain. I think the over under was $1300 and the side by side was $1800.

The running joke in Spain 4 years ago when I lived there was that you could buy a Sabatti double rifle for $1300 and enough ammo to miss a life time of wildboars and still not spend as much as a Blaser $4500 or a Krieghoff $4800 (prices in Europe at the time).

The guns were rough, and they felt like a Huglu when you handled them.

I tend not to believe in the mantra about we produce one quality of gun for Cabelas and one quality of gun for Italy. But a lot of companies throw it around.

Not everyone likes every gun I like, but I don't stalk them to piss in their Wheaties either.

And Verney Carron is a good company that has made a decent gun for a long time.

Does America have an importer?

The only double rifle I have ever owned was a Blaser. I don't own it anymore, it was an S-2 in 9.3x74R. Westley Richards imported it for me when I was stationed in Spain.

I have handled and shot quite a few big bores, but nothing like some of the folks on here.

Good question. It could be that some who purchase Sabattis do so as an entry DR. Once "hooked" they will upgrade to Merkels or K-guns, etc. The Merkel is a stout, no-nonsense workhorseat a reasonale price.

Eagle One

NRA Benefator Member
SCI Life Member
SASS Life Member
DRSS (.450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)

Another Sabatti versus everyone else fight.

I don't own one but the Sabatti's look just fine.

And their crowning glory is that they are of reasonable weight despite what Mac says.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Another Sabatti versus everyone else fight.

I don't own one but the Sabatti's look just fine.

And their crowning glory is that they are of reasonable weight despite what Mac says.

............

.............. ...............

...and Merkels start off with one of if not the best action design ever.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
...and Merkels start off with one of if not the best action design ever.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
...and Merkels start off with one of if not the best action design ever.

Is that a poke at Cali-Rigby?

Nope...Greener style action...haven't y'all read the Greener book???

Or...haven't y'all watched "Big Jake" even John Wayne liked Greeners!!!

Maybe...I should have said...one of the stronger and more practical actions ever designed. W.W. Greener !!!

Now .

Actually at the cheaper 'working end' of the double rifles I like Zoli.

I have said it before , but if I wasn't a Konvert to the K gun complete with spare shotgun barrels etc I would have a very good look at a zoli especially if you shoot a single trigger O/U shotgun (like I used to).

For a working pro...No I think seperate triggers offers some advantages especially when Guiding not hunting. For a client, buy a single trigger gun especially if you shoot alot of shotgun. I would think 75% of clients either double their rifles or cannot find the second trigger when things get exciting....

quote:

...and Merkels start off with one of if not the best action design ever.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Nope...Greener style action...haven't y'all read the Greener book???

quote:

Maybe...I should have said...one of the stronger and more practical actions ever designed. W.W. Greener !!!

One question here! What in hell does the Greener action have to do with Merkel?

The only thing about Greener in a Merkel is the so-called Greener cross bolt. The Greener cross bolt is simply a simpler way of taking the place of the skill & work intensive "DOLL'S HEAD" but is just as strong if not stronger!

The Merkel action design is an Anson & Deeley box lock,not a Greener, and as Ledvm said, one of the most prolific designs in both shotguns, and double rifles ever! IMO the only design that is better is the Webley long barr!

It is evident someone else hasn't read the "BOOK"!

quote:

but is just as strong if not stronger!

The crossbolt is MUCH stronger than a dolls head. And a better idea anyway.

quote:

I think seperate triggers offers some advantages especially when Guiding not hunting.

OMG, is there is no sanity in the world?

All I can say, is just do not look at the expensive stuff. I was drooling over some Wesley Richards doubles at the DSC and Oh BOY!! If I am left some inheritance from some long lost lost uncle then I am there in a minute. I do believe this thread does address entry into the DG market and $10K is hard for some folks to come up with but so is $5K. But a nice deer lease in Texas can be more than $5K / year. I would focus on being patient and locating a deal where as if you have to part with your gun, you will not lose your butt $$$$. The deals are out there!

EZ

quote:

The Merkel action design is an Anson & Deeley box lock,not a Greener,

Mac,

I am arguing about something that I am NO expert (actually I am ignorant) on for sure...but...I doing it for fun and to learn.

I have read the Greener book. And to my uneducated mind...the Anson & Deeley box lock is just part of the action and the rest (crossbolt and side-clips) is modeled after the Greener design. I even read that somewhere...let me dig that reference up.

So...for my novice self...the Merkel box lock double rifle uses an Anson & Deeley lock (trigger, sear, hammer, spring, and cocking lever mechanism) and a Greener Style receiver (cross-bolt lock-up with side-clips). Is this wrong???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The Merkel action design is an Anson & Deeley box lock,not a Greener,

Mac,

the Merkel box lock double rifle uses an Anson & Deeley lock (trigger, sear, hammer, spring, and cocking lever mechanism) and a Greener Style receiver (cross-bolt lock-up with side-clips). Is this wrong???

ledvm, you are basiclly correct but the Merkel action which includes everything but the side clips, and cross bolt is a Anson & Deeley action. The side clips and cross bolts have been added to almost every action type ever made, and this is the case with the Merkel action which is listed in the Merkel specs as an Anson& deeley action with H&H underlugs, and ejectors on the rifle so fitted.

Almost all German double rifles and shotguns are fitted with side clips, and cross bolt third fastener, ragardless of the action they are fitted on/or in!

Below from Merkel specs:

quote:

The Model 140 is a self cocking, Anson & Deeley boxlock with cocking indicators, side clips and receiver ledge. Greener crossbolt with double under barrel locking lugs. Double trigger with the option to have the front trigger as a set trigger. Also, a single, non-selective trigger is available on special order and at extra cost. Automatic tang-mounted sliding safety. Case ejection through split cartridge slide or Holland & Holland ejector for rimless cartridges with extractor claw. Ejectors available at extra cost. Barrel Length 600mm (23.6") and weight approximately 3.5kg (7.7lb). Classic English-style pistol-grip oil-finished walnut stock (Hogsback available on request). Receiver is colour case hardened and hand engraved in Arabesque pattern with higher grades of engraving available at extra cost.

Imported into Australia in 7x65R, .308Win, .30/06, .30 Blaser, 8x57IRS and 9.3x74R.

quote:

The side clips and cross bolts have been added to almost every action type ever made,

But...weren't they Greener's idea's???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The side clips and cross bolts have been added to almost every action type ever made,

But...weren't they Greener's idea's???

They could have been Greener's ideas but I think the origenal idea was Kersten, but their addtion on a A&D action doesn't make the A&D action a Greener,(or Kersten) any more than puting Rolls Royce wheels on a ford makes it a Rolls Royce.

The trade uses actions, and other parts made for the trade, made by a few companies A&D being one, and Webley being another then modify them with their own features. Most of the Brittish double rifle before WWI were barreled with German Krupp made cold hammer forged barrels. The A&D actions were the most often used and the Webleys less, but the Webley is a stronger action, however both were used by German makers, who modified them to suit their customers wants. Nearly all German and Austrian doubles used those actions but with side clips, and SO-CALLED Greener cross bolt and third extention rather than dolls heads, some with even Kersten (double extention) cross pins. Merkel, Simpson, and Sauer used A&D actions since the 1900s but cut them to their own shape in the standing breech, and rib extention latch!

quote:

Most of the Brittish double rifle before WWI were barreled with German Krupp made cold hammer forged barrels.

Cold hammer forged barrels on DR's before 1914?

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Most of the Brittish double rifle before WWI were barreled with German Krupp made cold hammer forged barrels.

Cold hammer forged barrels on DR's before 1914?

That is not true.

The only early doubles made with German barrels were the Jefferys, Hollis and Edwinson Green's, and others made by the above makers.

Hollands, Westleys Richards and Webleys were made with English barrels.

quote:

That is not true.

The only early doubles made with German barrels were the Jefferys, Hollis and Edwinson Green's, and others made by the above makers.

Hollands, Westleys Richards and Webleys were made with English barrels.

Yes, I agree, the information about Krupp barrels in Mac's post is not accurate. I've no idea where he got it from.

The suggestion that cold hammer forged barrels were used on doubles prior to the first world war is simply not true.

I looked at a couple of sabatti at cabellas. It was like looking at a stevens double barrel shotgun, a parker or winchester it was not.
That does't mean its not a good deal only time will tell. If you get a lifetime of shooting out of it and pass it down to your son it was a good deal. Will they hold their price on resale?
Why spend 5500 on a unproven firearm when just a little more will get you into a slighlty used merkel.



JD