Starting to load up some 400 grain Woodies and Hornady DGX bullets will be starting the load at 67-68grains of R-15, are you guys having to use a wad? I use foam wads.

At Rusty's suggestion and as supplied by him, I used foam wads with RL-15 for the DGXs. I figured Rusty is the guru of 450-400s and his advice was gold.
It is!
Very happy with accuracy and consistency using that combo.

Same loading as I tried.....use the wad. I used foam plugs.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
At Rusty's suggestion and as supplied by him, I used foam wads with RL-15 for the DGXs. I figured Rusty is the guru of 450-400s and his advice was gold.
It is!
Very happy with accuracy and consistency using that combo.

You guys using length wise a full 1 inch wad or a 1/2 inch wad?

I used 1/2" foam plug. Lots of people use cut to length foam backer rod from Home Depot and others buy foam window insulation and use a chamfered case to "cookie-cut" plugs.

I was cutting mine from some packing foam.....3/4".

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Dirk, I could provide you some.

Does it matter about the 'firmness' of the foam? I know that some foams are firmer than others.....thx.

Why are you guys using wads? The new Hornady reloading manual lists this cartridge with many powder choices and no mention of any fillers.
Hornady does however suggest a good crimp to improve ignition.

I don't use wads with the H4350 loads...just the RL15.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

I use Kynoch foam wads with R-15 in the 450/400 3" and the 450/400 3 1/4".

Consider using 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch foam backer rod from Home Depot or another Box store, Very cheap (under $300 for 25 feet, you can cut to length with razor blade or Exacto knife. Insert in case with a pencil flat end or just drop in the 3/8" size. It keeps the powder in place just fine. More consistent results on the chronograph.

Good Shooting

Tetonka

Sorry, post above should read $3.00 as cost of backer rod.

Tetonka

You must use a filler in the 450/400 with RL 15.
The filler must be compressed.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
You must use a filler in the 450/400 with RL 15.
The filler must be compressed.

Why?

The latest Hornady manual says nothing of wads with this powder. I have never loaded for the 450/400 so my experience is zip. But I do have one on order so am trying to learn as much as possible.

Snowwolfe, please send me your email address and I will forward you an article by Ross Seyfried and using filler with RL-15 in Large Nitro Cases.

It will answer all your questions.

snowwolfe at gci.net

Thank you. Always willing to learn. And wondering why Hornady thinks it is ok while some here do not.

Has anyone here who claims you need a wad actually experienced problems when not using any with RL 15?

Yes sir....no wad with RL15 = erratic velocities and larger groups. I have shot my 450 NE w/o a filler with RL15...no problems and pretty consistant readings. I believe that Shooting the Double Rifle says plugs not needed with 450 NE as well.


Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

I just went through this. With RL-15 and no wads, I was haing minute hangfires. I wouldn't have noticed without electronic muffs. On every shot, I heard a tiny click when the hammer fell on the No 1, the the shell fired. It was a minute delay but there. Accuracy off sandbags was exceptional. I returned home and did quite a bit of investigation. I read Seyfrieds work RE the 450-400, and if I remember correctly, he recommended a wad (polyester) if you got hangfires. I was going to try them, but I happened to see that note in the new hornady manual. I loaded up a bunch of DGX's with RL-15, Federal 215 primers and a good crimp. I actually just got back from the range an hour ago, and they functioned flawlessly with groups around 3/8" at 50 yards. Instant ignition. My vote goes to magnum primers and crimping. If you use a filler, I would go with polyester. While it is minor, the 450/400 is a bottleneck case, and there are a lot reports of damage with foam plugs in bottleneck cases. I know a lot of people use them and swear by them, but I see no reason to take the chance. Try the crimp and magnum primers first to see how they do.

Thanks for the info Art.

Why not just use a slower powder to begin with? Or have you guys tried slower powders and found them to be so inaccurate they would not work for short range hunting loads?

PS: Midway has the Hornady DGX bullets back in stock.

SW,
In vintage double rifles it's all about trying to replicate Cordite and it's pressure curve.

Usually the barrels of the old doubles are much thinner than today's modern state of the are rifles. There is the metallurgy of those long-past eras to deal with as well.

The huge cases of the Nitro Express Cartridges, designed to hold the long stands of Cordite and deliver a large caliber round at moderate pressure in tropical heat, did not have the luxury of choice in selecting a wide range of propellants.

RL-15, aka Norma 203B, fills the bill for pressure curve needs. It is, as most powders are, position sensitive. As stated in the Seyfried article, Handloader Magazine Dec1999/Jan2000, the filler holds the powder up against the primer, takes up the unused space and provides for some very uniform velocities.

Hopefully the copies of the article I sent will make it to you via email.

Rusty makes a point here that is often overlooked in these types of discussions. This is the Double Gun forum, and there are sometimes issues which are particular to them. The importance of pressure curves may be important to them as regards regulation and also safety of rather old doubles. (The same holds true for older double shotguns.) My comments were directed primarily at reloading the cartridge per se, in my case for a single shot. In a modern rifle with a single barrel, loading density and powder position are important only as they affect velocity spread, max pressure and ignition. If these are acceptable then the load will work. Many recommended and successful loads in manuals have relatively low loading densities. If performance is otherwise acceptable, use of fillers is not recommended, in my opinion. It is then just another potential source of problems. If needed for performance, then use them.

Thanks for the info Rusty. Makes sense on vintage rifles.

But what about new ones? Why stick with RL 15 if you need to use a filler when you can simply move onto slower powders?

With newer rifles use what it was regulated with, or find something that you like. You will find that RL-15 will give you a reduced recoil.

Maybe some useful information from my experience.

My K-Gun in 450/400 NE.3in. was regulated with Hornady 400 gr. bullets and H 4831 at about 80
grains of powder for a speed of 2040 fps as confirmed by the ballistics dept. at Hornady for their Factory Ammo. I was able to duplicate this load but was never very happy with the Standard Deviation numbers on the Ohler
35P chronograph running over 50. (or the recoil)

Reading here on this forum and elsewhere about RL 15, I decided to try some. Results were about the same velocity (2080 fps.), good regulation, reduced recoil and a Standard Deviation running around 9, Total of 6 shots, 3 shots per bbl. using 66 to 66.5 gr of RL#15
and using a foam filler cut from a 3/8 foam backer rod. (From Home Depot -- 25 Ft. for less than $3) Some tests without the filler worked OK but had higher SD. i.e. I'm sticking with the foam for now.

Reference page 88 regarding fillers on large NE
cases by Graeme Wright (Shooting the British Double Rifle) 3rd edition. He indicates the 450 3 1/4 is about the largest case where you can get by without a filler. I recomend the filler as a good chronograph will prove good results.

Hope this is of sonme help to double gun shooters.

Good Shooting,

Tetonka

Rusty--Would you please e-mail the Seyfried article to me at wpe2sge2@bellsouth.net?

Thanks,

Bill E.

It is on the way. Let me know when you get it.

Rusty, one more for the wad article if you would. tvandiepen@farmersagent.com

Thanks, Tom

Tom,
It should be on the way. let me know if it shows up.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Tom,
It should be on the way. let me know if it shows up.

Rusty, yes it showed up and thanks for the effort. I read the article when it was published, but did not shoot doubles then. To the topic, in 450/400 and 470 will shoot ok without fillers but I got some significant velocity ranges. With fillers, especially foam, velocity extreme spread decreased to about 50fps and groups improved a lot.

Tom

This link has 450-400 quotes by Seyfried from a number of published sources.

http://castboolits.gunloads.co...dex.php/t-64206.html