I have to apologize because I do not know your name, but I think it is Mark (400 Nitro Express). Folks have told me you were instrumental in the Hornady introduction of the 450/400 3", specifically telling Hornady that there were other barrel calibers than 0.410 in existing 450/400 double rifles.

Now the Hornady dies are still under development, after they have made and are selling brass. What the heck is going on? Do you know?

Thanks for any help and information.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Folks have told me you were instrumental in the Hornady introduction of the 450/400 3".......

Who is the "you", pray tell? Mark? Butch? Me?

I'd think that "developing" the dies would not be rocket science if they were just making them to duplicate the loads they now market? But, what do I know?

I modified the first post, as I think it is Mark, but I am terrible about names.

Mark is probably the guy. He's a true asset to double lovers, particularly vintage gun owners. Mark's a CPA and will come up for air soon and reply... after all, it's tax season!

Will - I suspect the delay with Hornady's die development is a function of the changes CIP has made to the 450/400.

If you buy a non-cip rifle in 450/400 today, i.e.: ruger #1, it has a different shoulder than the "September 2007" CIP 450/400.

After HEYM started producing the 450/400 last year, it raised the cartridge's awarness at CIP. Long story short, it had been a l-o-n-g time since a 450/400 had been CIP proved (certainly within Europe) so CIP went back and reviewed the current dims and decided that the current dims were incorrectly translated from the original @1923 specs.

After much political back and forth, CIP dug thier heels in and decided they were going to change the cartridge dims back to the original 1920's specs. Effective September 2007, those changes were made. I have a copy of the director's letter stating such.

The changes weren't that radical, and technically, they were justified in making the "correction" (assuming the intention was accurate reproduction of the original dims,) but the cartridge had been "incorrect" for a long time... so the change seemed a bit too late. Nontheless, they changed it.

The new (Sep '07) CIP dims have the double radius shoulders.

Hornady's ammo obviously fits the new/1923 chamber and passed CIP approval (in a HEYM pressure barrel with Sep '07 CIP chamber.)

Technically, I believe it was Craig Boddington that made the big push for the 450/400, and he is the guy that led Hornady in that direction.

Mark, however, was a valuable resource to Hornady and is intimately familiar not only with the 450/400 but also with all of the details above, as we had several frustrating discussions on the changes by CIP.

Actually, it looks like this decision was made in August '07 rather than September '07.

Here's the original 1923 spec.



Here is the "Pre Aug '07" chamber (angular shoulder), compared with the "Post Aug '07 chamber (double radius shoulder).

Can a rifle chambered for the 3.25 inch

older cart. be rechambered to the 3 inch?

I realize there would be a long throat,

like shooting 458 win mag ammo in a 458

Lott chamber.

I knew I was in the dark about all this, but in reality I didn't even know there was a tunnel.

Well, I'm glad this all got straightened out for us 450/400 come-lately's before jumping in with the wrong caliber barrels, the wrong brass, the wrong dies, and the wrong reamers.

At least with the new Hornady cases, bullets, and dies(?) the implication is that it now all straightened back out, back to 1925.

Is that a correct assumption?

will,

you'd be better off with a 450 straight.

far, far superior to the 450/400

The first words Mark(400 NitroExpress) and I heard about the re-introduction of the 400 Jeffery was when Craig Boddington stepped out of his booth at the Houston Safari Club Show and told us that Hornady was re-introducing it. That was 2 years ago.

Mark was a valuble source of historic data on the 450/400 3 inch, which Hornady made use of in their developing their product.

Will - Yes, you could say it is accurate or perhaps "true to the original" again.

This CIP change doesn't affect the bores, twist, etc... and you'll find that most makers of brass are aware of the variations over the years in 450/400 shoulder specs and they typically undersize them to fire form in any of the chamber variations.

Here is Jamison's 450/400 brass in the new 1923 chamber.


Here is Hornady's factory round in the new 1923 chamber.


As you can see, both fit. The shoulder angles changes to the double radius when they are fired, but that doesn't present any head space issues, nor does it seem to be affected by reloading with "old spec" dies. As long as the dies aren't set up to move the shoulder, then you're not overworking the brass.

My 2 cents worth:

I've already written to Hornady about their label on the boxes of empty brass:

450/400 3" N.E.
(400 JEFREY)

I asked them to please change that to:

450/400 3" N.E.
(400 JEFFERY)

I figured one should show some respect for where and when it all got started.

Will, at least we'll have collector's items after they change it!

Chris,

You and all the others involved in this deserve much praise and credit for carrying the water.

So, just when I thought I was warm and fizzy about the new Hornady cases, I guess they do not quite conform to the 1923 drawing.

Is it possible that the Hornady cases are a one-size-fits-all approach so that the cases will fit in the original chambers and most, if not all, all the "wildcat" chambers that have evolved over the years?

I assume that one better check that any rounds taken hunting better slip fit one's chambers!

Chris,

I see you have changed your post above that answers my question, indeed the Hornady brass, and the Jamison brass also, is one-size-fits-all.

Thanks.

Well, I don't know that I was "instrumental" in anything to do with Hornady's .450/.400 ammo, but I have had many conversations with them about it since Rusty and I spoke to Craig in Houston at HSC.

With respect to .400 standards:

The original standard groove/bullet diameter of the .450/.400 3.25" NE was .408". Jeffery's 3" followed with a .411" bullet, and that was a mistake. Predictably, many shops ended up treating .400 blanks in a rather generic way. My own .450/.400 3.25" NE was .411 groove, my 3" is .408", and that's common.

There's a belief that the British calibers weren't standardized, hence the many variations, and that's a myth. Eley's and Kynoch's factory drawings make that clear. The problem was getting the gunmakers to follow them. The chronic problems in this regard resulted in a conference in 1913, organized by the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce, that was intended to get everybody on the same page. One of the results was the printing of a poster of standards that was a fixture in workshops for many years afterward. A gunmaker friend has a copy of it. Also, a few standards were actually changed at this time, the .450/.400s among them. Standard bullet/groove diameter of both .400s has been .410" since 1913 (some of the subsequent drawings are of later date, but this is when the changes were made), and CIP did not change this when they converted the British standards later. Hornady elected to go with CIP spec, and that's the only sensible option for factory ammo or a new rifle.

What CIP did last year was to restore the radiused shoulder to the 3". Like Chris said, this produced some headaches for everyone manufacturing rifles and ammunition in this caliber, Hornady and Heym among them. When the change was proposed last spring, the damn Suhl proof house didn't want to prove any .400s until the issue was settled. The change was adopted in August.

I've had no discussions with Hornady about the dies at all. Although new spec ammo is supposed to fit (just) in old spec chambers, perhaps, as Chris suggested, their dies are on hold because they're wrestling with what die spec will work best in both? I don't know. The delay could be due to other reasons entirely.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Is it possible that the Hornady cases are a one-size-fits-all approach so that the cases will fit in the original chambers and most, if not all, all the "wildcat" chambers that have evolved over the years?

I've been using Hornady brass for over a year, and just got some more. The chambers of my gun have the radiused shoulder. My old RCBS dies do as well. The Hornady brass works perfectly.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks so much for all of the replies. I feel I am getting closer to the top of the learning curve on the 450/400 3".

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Can a rifle chambered for the 3.25 inch

older cart. be rechambered to the 3 inch?

I realize there would be a long throat,

like shooting 458 win mag ammo in a 458

Lott chamber.

...................NO! The two cartridges are different in more ways that just the long neck on the 3 1/4" version. The case of the 3" is fatter in the head area, the 3 1/4" case is longer than the 3" version, so the neck would not go into the chamber far enough to claose the rifle, and the rim is much thinner on the 3 1/4", than the 3" version, so headspace would suffer considerably if one could force the 3 1/4" into a 3" chamber. The other way round the 3" will definently not chamber in the 3 1/4" chamber at all! This was done by Jeffery to assure their full nitro rounds wouldn't chamber in the 3 1/4" rifle, because they 3 1/4" was made in smokeless version without changing the case shape, leaving it possible to chamber NITRO rounds in a black powder rifle! The 3" Jeff was never offered in a Black powder, or Nitro for black version!

I suppose it would be possible to make cases for the 3" version, from the 3 1/4" case, by building up the rim, and shortening the case, and fire forming in a 3" chamber. However, I think you would end up with a lot of split cases, and damaged chambers!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Can a rifle chambered for the 3.25 inch

older cart. be rechambered to the 3 inch?

I realize there would be a long throat,

like shooting 458 win mag ammo in a 458

Lott chamber.

...................NO! The two cartridges are different in more ways that just the long neck on the 3 1/4" version. The case of the 3" is fatter in the head area, the 3 1/4" case is longer than the 3" version, so the neck would not go into the chamber far enough to claose the rifle, and the rim is much thinner on the 3 1/4", than the 3" version, so headspace would suffer considerably if one could force the 3 1/4" into a 3" chamber. The other way round the 3" will definently not chamber in the 3 1/4" chamber at all! This was done by Jeffery to assure their full nitro rounds wouldn't chamber in the 3 1/4" rifle, because they 3 1/4" was made in smokeless version without changing the case shape, leaving it possible to chamber NITRO rounds in a black powder rifle! The 3" Jeff was never offered in a Black powder, or Nitro for black version!

I suppose it would be possible to make cases for the 3" version, from the 3 1/4" case, by building up the rim, and shortening the case, and fire forming in a 3" chamber. However, I think you would end up with a lot of split cases, and damaged chambers!

In the early 70's i bought a really nice Jeffery 450/400. It was marked on the water table as 400 Express. The person I bought it from told me it was a 450/400 3.25". I fired 20 rounds of Kynoch 450/400 3.25" ammo through it before I noticed the fired cases had the shoulder moved well forward of the unfired cases. We also shot a very large bull bison up on the Nat. Bison Range in Montana using 3.25" ammo out of it. It turns out it was a 450/400 3". The ammo chambered and fired and was actually quite accurate and the bullets hit right under the bead at 50 yards. Ahh, the mistakes we make when we are young. The 3" ammo will not chamber in the 3.25" guns. You should be able to re-chamber a 3.25" gun to 3". Although the neck will be .25" longer than standard.

465H&H

I had a fellow poster on here (who will remain nameless) shoot a .470 NE out of .500 NE Merkel once.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In the early 70's i bought a really nice Jeffery 450/400. It was marked on the water table as 400 Express. The person I bought it from told me it was a 450/400 3.25". I fired 20 rounds of Kynoch 450/400 3.25" ammo through it before I noticed the fired cases had the shoulder moved well forward of the unfired cases. We also shot a very large bull bison up on the Nat. Bison Range in Montana using 3.25" ammo out of it. It turns out it was a 450/400 3". The ammo chambered and fired and was actually quite accurate and the bullets hit right under the bead at 50 yards. Ahh, the mistakes we make when we are young. The 3" ammo will not chamber in the 3.25" guns. You should be able to re-chamber a 3.25" gun to 3". Although the neck will be .25" longer than standard.

465H&H

That suprizes me totally, as I have the two factory cartridges in front of me, and they measure quite differently! those 3 1/4" must have been rattleing in the chambers, and the headspace way loose. It's a wounder the fireing pins would set them off.

Learn something new every day!

Very interesting post. My 1908-ish 450-400 has distinctly 'double radius' shoulders. I had Hornady (before the new components) make me a set of custom dies. Virgin brass is much more angular. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
I had a fellow poster on here (who will remain nameless) shoot a .470 NE out of .500 NE Merkel once.

Who was that idiot???

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
I had a fellow poster on here (who will remain nameless) shoot a .470 NE out of .500 NE Merkel once.

Who was that idiot???

He's close. Very close.

Hoo ha! Roy Weatherby copied Jeffery with the venturified shoulder!

Y'all let us know when the dies are ready at Hornady, please!

BTW, the straight case of the 400 Nitro For BP 3" is the true heir to the title of "400 NE," and that would have to be with a .395 caliber bullet.

quote:

I've already written to Hornady about their label on the boxes of empty brass:

If you have any copies of that letter you might want to send one to RCBS and BELL

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:

quote:

I've already written to Hornady about their label on the boxes of empty brass:

If you have any copies of that letter you might want to send one to RCBS and BELL

Obviously, your double is a counterfeit.

What most people don't know is that the "W" in W.J. Jeffery stands for "Weatherby."

The double radiused shoulder in that .450-400 case design is no coincidence.

[/QUOTE]

He's close. Very close.[/QUOTE]

As in close as "family"?

quote:

In the early 70's i bought a really nice Jeffery 450/400. It was marked on the water table as 400 Express. The person I bought it from told me it was a 450/400 3.25". I fired 20 rounds of Kynoch 450/400 3.25" ammo through it before I noticed the fired cases had the shoulder moved well forward of the unfired cases. We also shot a very large bull bison up on the Nat. Bison Range in Montana using 3.25" ammo out of it. It turns out it was a 450/400 3".

465H&H,
Believe it or not, I had an amazingly similar experience just a few years ago. The gun (not a Jeffery) was also marked 400EX nd the seller, whose name I'd seen in print more than once, said it was a 3.25" gun. Great, I've already got brass/dies for that!

When I got it for inspection it was obvious from the included fired brass that something was very askew. Chamber casts quickly confirmed that it was a 3" gun, with dimensions a few thou longer in the case body and larger in the head than spec. 3.25" rounds chambered just fine other than the rims being too thin. I called the seller who adamently insisted I was wrong, but decided to keep the gun anyway.
He'd fired 3.25" ammo in it for years.

I thought of calling the misformed brass the 450/400 3.25"AI due to the greater fireformed capacity as compared to the "standard" 3.25"

Another lesson in why you should never take anyone's word on a vintage gun but measure it yourself before firing.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

He's close. Very close.

As in close as "family"?

No, but he knows who he is...

Mac,

Friend, I believe you did not read my question

as I intended it. I am asking about RECHAMBERING

via GUNSMITHING a 3 1/4" 400 NE to a 3" Jeffery.

Again I realize this will result in a LONG throat

if doable. [like shooting 458 WM in 458 LOTT rifle]

quote:

Although the NECK will be .25" longer than standard.

by 465H&H

Hi 465H&H
Thanks for the reply. I BELIEVE

you meant THROAT, am I correct?

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Mac,

Friend, I believe you did not read my question

as I intended it. I am asking about RECHAMBERING

via GUNSMITHING a 3 1/4" 400 NE to a 3" Jeffery.

Again I realize this will result in a LONG throat

if doable. [like shooting 458 WM in 458 LOTT rifle]

Sorry Big five, I need to learn to read more carefully!

Big Five Jack.

If it was my rifle I would not do it.

There is no need as 3 1/4" cases are very easy to get.

I have NO intentions to do a rechambering on mine either.