If anyone have had the experience of a 470 and 500 nitro when it comes to penetration differences between these two calibres when using Woodleigh and Hornady solids and softs,and what the end result was?

500 Grains did some testing on elephant heads and bodies and buff bodies using Woodleighs in the two calibres, iirc. About three years ago, maybe four, I think.

You might try a search here on this forum.

Some of his results were published in one or more articles in African Hunter Magazine as well. The publication is owned by the owner of this site, and I think some of the achived material is availble somewhere here on AR.

Hope this helps,

JPK

JPK
Thanks for the help,I will have a look.

I'll have to give you a comparison between a 500/465 and a 500 which is really the same as a 470/500 comparison. These are from Water Buffalo which are as tough as Cape Buffalo and as thick.

To be honest, not a huge amount of difference with the edge being given to the 500 because of the extra bullet weight.

A 465 Woodleigh SN will still go from one side to the other on a Buff, as will a 500.

Where you do see a big difference in my opinion is when the 500 Nitro hits the animal - it gives it a visible hit so much so you can see the ripples go down the sides of the animal from the impact / energy dispersion.

I was told about it beforehand but when I saw it, it really stood out.

Shot a fair few Buff with Both calibres and all would have been cut up and the wound channels looked at.

Solids - well, solids in both tend to go end to end and out the other side.

On Ele the .500 wins. The .470 was always rated as the worst of the brit .450-500 cal cartridges for penetration, mostly due to bullet shape. Since almost all makers of ammo have stayed with the origninal .470 profile...

That said...either have more than enough penetration for a sport hunter or Pro guide- just when you come to poor angle shots on big bulls that there is some difference...and if you need to take a south bound shot on a north bound ele, the 500/416 is the way to go.

Penetration Index is all relative but it holds pretty much true at predicting relative penetration of solids, though some doubt it. But then their examples prove what they don't believe.

Anyway, the PI shows that the nominal 416 penetrates more than the 470 which penetrates more than the 500.

But penetration is only part of the story.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

if you need to take a south bound shot on a north bound ele, the 500/416 is the way to go.

Ganyana, that's because the .500/.416 is the greatest double rifle caliber ever!

I agree with the data and visual interpretation suggested by 500N. I believe Tony Sanchez-A gathered quite a bit of this data as well and the 570 grain in the .500 NE penetrated as well or better than most all of the calibers, meaning more than the .577, which has been my experience as well on elephant, buffalo and a variety of other game. I measured bullet paths in the 31-45 inch range on many elephant frontal brain shots, meaning that the solid often exits the back of the skull after going through the brain and can be found in the dense, neck muscle.

The historical information shows the .500 NE capable of 60 inches of penetration quite often and I've experienced this as well. And, for measely plains game, I shot a large zebra stallion once, standing dead away, at 145 yards, and the 570 grain Barnes X hit him in the right hip, four inches to the right of the tail head. The bullet broke the femur, exited the hip, re-entered the flank, completely passed through the paunch (full of wet grass at early afternoon), then fully penetrated the chest cavity and destroyed the lung before lodging under the skin on the chest. This was just plains game, but is was 145 yards out of the starting blocks and it went through dense muscle, large bone, wet grass, more tissue, lung, chest muscle, and was only stopped by the expansive and tough hide.

The .500 is a killer of game.

Here is THE answer
http://470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores7.html

I'm completely surprised that no-one has thought about the type of bullet used in these calibers, that actually do the penetrating. I've never in my life seen a 500 or 470 CARTRIDGE penetrate anything. . . . .

All things being equal between the 470 and 500 both using round nose solids or large meplat solids both shooting around 2150fps the 500 will out penetrate a 470. Somewhere in the balistics maze there are certain calibers with the right SD (if you believe in it), the perfect velocity and the perfect frontal surface area that just seems to be the the perfect combo for penetration. The 500 is one of those calibers along with the 9.3,416, 375, and with proper velocity the 458. Of all of the PH's in Africa which I have shared campfires with over the past two decades the one thing that seems to be a unanimous concensus gained by their experience is the penetration qualities of the 470 being sub-par to marginal in comparison to other big bore calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Of all of the PH's in Africa which I have shared campfires with over the past two decades the one thing that seems to be a unanimous concensus gained by their experience is the penetration qualities of the 470 being sub-par to marginal in comparison to other big bore calibers.

I think that the notion of the 470 being sub par began with Taylors concern of bullet design. What is interesting is that in Boddington's "Safari Rifle II" he conducted a poll among PHs and the most chosen thick skinned DG round was the 470 Nitro.

If there is any difference in penetration between the various 458, 465, 470 etc Nitros it is due to bullet design not caliber. I will paraphase something I read written by a PH that there are no bad calibers just bad bullets.

Not having shot a 500 nitro but a few times I cannot comment on the penetration versus a 470 however I will say with proper bullets a 470 will penetrate far beyond what would be required.

As far a PH's I have hunted with:

One 500 K-gun double and he swore by it
One 470 Nitro that he is lucky I did take back with me it was a fine rifle
The PH for my hunt this year carries a 470 Nitro also.

When I win Butch's double it will be a 500 Nitro. I can conduct some penetration tests with it versus my 470.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I think that the notion of the 470 being sub par began with Taylors concern of bullet design. If there is any difference in penetration between the various 458, 465, 470 etc Nitros it is due to bullet design not caliber.

Mike, that may very well be the case, I might also be taking into account the reaction of game being shot with a 500 is noticeable when compared to the 450-470 class calibers. What might also be a player is factory ammo, the velocities might be lower than advertized. I've seen some factory 470 ammo shoot around 2000-2025fps which is sub-par.

What I was saying is that between the 450 Nitro 465 Nitro, 470 Nitro there is not much if any difference in performance. Arguments can be made for all (especially if you own one) like bullet availability for the 458 etc

SD of a .458 480 Gr bullet is almost the same as a .474 500 grain bullet if SD is important.

Velocity, SD, energy, twist rate all play a role. The more time I spend testing and reading the Terminal velocity thread I believe the nose profile trumps everything in terms of penetration.

Out of my 470 Nitro in the same media, North Fork bullets at 1661 had over three times the straight line penetration of a Woodleigh at 2065. The recorded velocity was at impact. So a 470 at 2025 is still nearly 4600 pounds of energy and with proper bullets will penetrate anything.

Again, I am not discounting the 500 Nitro it is a fine caliber.

I don't remember what I shoot but it out penetrates, out kills, and. generally, vastly out performs any other cartridge or bullet that was ever conceived or used between this date and the beginning of time.

And I'll swear by this til by dying breath.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I don't remember what I shoot but it out penetrates, out kills, and. generally, vastly out performs any other cartridge or bullet that was ever conceived or used between this date and the beginning of time.

Does not!

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I think that the notion of the 470 being sub par began with Taylors concern of bullet design. If there is any difference in penetration between the various 458, 465, 470 etc Nitros it is due to bullet design not caliber.

Mike, that may very well be the case, I might also be taking into account the reaction of game being shot with a 500 is noticeable when compared to the 450-470 class calibers. What might also be a player is factory ammo, the velocities might be lower than advertized. I've seen some factory 470 ammo shoot around 2000-2025fps which is sub-par.

Dirk,

2025fps ia about right for a 470 rifle with 24" or so barrels, using the traditional, historic velocity. Nominal balistics for the 470 is 2125fps with 500grs OUT OF 31" BARRELS.

Take a look at Kynoch's website for traditional nominal ballistics for Brit NE cartridges. http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...rtridge%20range.htm#

Some modern guns are regulated with hotter loads, Searcy's for one example.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Dirk,

2025fps ia about right for a 470 rifle with 24" or so barrels, using the traditional, historic velocity. Nominal balistics for the 470 is 2125fps with 500grs OUT OF 31" BARRELS.

Take a look at Kynoch's website for traditional nominal ballistics for Brit NE cartridges. http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...rtridge%20range.htm#

Some modern guns are regulated with hotter loads, Searcy's for one example.

JPK

What you posted is true, I did not word it too well in my post. I personally believe the kinetic energy of the 470 with velocities (2000-2025fps) is marginal with a round nose solid. With a NF or GS the problem is resolved. 470's that regulate at 2150fps velocities are very much up to the task of taking big bulls with Woodies, NF, or GS solids.

With all the data presented over the past 6 months regarding penetration.
It would stand to reason the NF solid option in about any caliber loaded in most doubles just about makes penetration a moot point regardless of caliber and erases any concern regarding stresses on the barrel bonding designs.
Only issue is they have to be hand loaded as their is no major Mfg offering them in a finished cartridge.
I will say that regarding velocity of new 470 offerings that the Hornady 500 gr shot a average velocity of 2150 FPS out of my 24" Heym 88 and the Federal 500 gr Woodleighs shot 2200 FPS so the "required" velocity is there in the modern offerings. BTW; It has been mentioned that Federal ammo is all over the place on velocity. Perhaps I have a "HOT" box!
I think I will reload the NF cup points and solids @ 2150 in the future and not have to think much about this topic.
Thanks to all those involved in the testing!

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Dirk,

2025fps ia about right for a 470 rifle with 24" or so barrels, using the traditional, historic velocity. Nominal balistics for the 470 is 2125fps with 500grs OUT OF 31" BARRELS.

Take a look at Kynoch's website for traditional nominal ballistics for Brit NE cartridges. http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...rtridge%20range.htm#

Some modern guns are regulated with hotter loads, Searcy's for one example.

JPK

What you posted is true, I did not word it too well in my post. I personally believe the kinetic energy of the 470 with velocities (2000-2025fps) is marginal with a round nose solid. With a NF or GS the problem is resolved. 470's that regulate at 2150fps velocities are very much up to the task of taking big bulls with Woodies, NF, or GS solids.

I would agree 100%. NF's, GS Customs, they move any of the slower big bores up two notches.

JPK

Here are some results from my use of various solids on elephants. I will limit this to frontal head shots for the time being. In general I have found that RN steel jacket solids will penetrate to the middle of the neck. That is for 480 to 500 grain bullets out of the 465 or 470 rifles. Hornady 500 grain 458 Win bullets (DGS) at 2,150 fps were found at the front of the shoulder , approximately 18" farther than the Woodleighs. North Fork FN solid was found about 12" behind the shoulder bone in the in the back strap next to the spine. Still more penetration. Out of the Lott, the 458 woodleigh 550 grain bullets at 2,150 fps were found in the stomach contents. That is over six feet pf penetration. I haven't tried any 500 bullets so I can't say what they would do. I also give a caveat with the above results. My sample sizes are small but the results were consistent. My next try may not be as consistent. All of these bullets killed the elephants in a most satisfying manner. I would use any of them again.
465H&H

i imagine you meant 458 at 2150, not the stated 1250

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i imagine you meant 458 at 2150, not the stated 1250

Thanks for catching that error. I have corrected it.

465H&H

I've owned both 500NE and 470NE double rifles, but have never done penetration test of them both. However either one will penetrate well enough to use on anything that walks on Earth today, and most of what used to walk around the world!

In my opinion, the real advantage the 500NE has over the 470NE is it heavier empact on the animal being a large chunk of energy delivered!

MacD37
I suppose that is what matters at the end of the day when one face DG on their territory!