We all know that the ultra bores - 577 & 600 - kick harder and are fired from heavier guns. This post is not about that.

The question I want to ask is simple.

All other factors being equal, what is the difference in terminal performance on dangerous game between the .500NE, .577NE and .600NE?

I've used 470,500 and 577 on game. The 470 never impressed me much. Sure it killed but that's about it. The 500 has had the most experience and it is a great cartridge. With the right bullets it hammers buffalo. If I had to own only one that would probably be the caliber I'd choose for dangerous game. Now the 577 is my love. Only shot one elephant and one buffalo with it but was very impressed at the reaction it had on the buffalo. Good friend of mine who is a PH in Zim has used a 577 for his backup gun and I agree with him that the added knock down is worth its extra weight and recoil. When the chips are down and it is really close I think either the 500 or the 577 would be good. The 600 doesn't do much for me as it is really over weight and I don't think it is any better than the 577 if as good. With new bullets it might be a different story. The 577 should not weigh over 12 lbs if its going to be hunted.

Sam

+1 on everything Sam said except the .577 weight. If it weighs less than 13# you can have two shares. Your share and mine.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

Now the 577 is my love.

Mine too

Mine 3 :-)

Matter of perspective for sure here. I'm a firm believer in that the 500NE is where the law of diminishing returns sets in concerning reaction of game upon receiving the shot.

One elephant and one buffalo with the 577NE. Several with the 500NE. All similarly hit. All the exact same reaction to the impact.

577NE is way cool. 500NE is way more practical with the exact same effect. JMO and YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

One elephant and one buffalo with the 577NE. Several with the 500NE. All similarly hit. All the exact same reaction to the impact.

Thanks Todd. This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.

If you want to carry your own rifle the 577's get heavy. 500 all the way. And yes I own both but hunt with my 470 the most.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

577NE is way cool.

And that's exactly why you NEED the 577NE

Well, if I recall correctly, Michael458 has indicated that based on
testing he's done with Sam, that .500 or .510 using CEB BBW #13's
on elephant is the ceiling for effective killing; above that caliber is
waste. But the .585" diameter bullet is so magical; the 577 NE rifles
are so incomparable; I expect I'll ALWAYS lean that way...

By the way, Michael is reporting that this phenomenal killing ability
with the 50's/51's occurs with lighter than traditional 570 grain bullets
"to boot"! I believe 535 grainers and 510 grainers were both MONSTERS
in the analysis! I hope I'm not too far off in my paraphrasing.

Michael's thread on the 500NE:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/6861026071

510gr solid BBW#13's and 475gr Non-Cons.

The 475gr Non Cons are shooting the best in my new 500NE. I'm getting around a 1" group with them at 2,415fps with the tip installed. That's 6,150ft/lbs as compared to the traditional 570gr at 2,150fps for 5800ft/lbs of energy.

Todd,

Please, the company that built your 500 NE to
which you refer is...

DR, it's my new VC that I've posted here. Check your PMs D.R.

I'll repost some of the PM here. I've been working with Michael and Sam with these lighter bullets in my gun. So far, my rifle is preferring the traditional 570gr North Forks for the solid load. But I still have a way to go before I'm happy with it.

However, I think we've found a really good load with the 475gr CEB Non-Con with the tip. Michael and Sam found some real pressure benefits to using Hornady brass. Michael was also able to correlate his pressure gauge readings with case head expansion. I don't remember the exact load off the top of my head, but from their data, I think they stopped just short of 2400fps with RL-15 and with a reading well below the max pressure used for the project. There are also case head measurements with this load that appear to correlate with the pressure gauge reading where they stopped.

Using that case head expansion and correlating it with my chrony readings, I continued to increase the RL-15 charge every so slightly to where I reached 2,415fps and .0020" case head expansion. The data shows .0025" to correlate with their max pressure. So, I've got a load doing 2,415fps, case head expansion is showing less than max pressure, regulation is shooting both barrels to about 1" at 25 yards, the cases are free falling from the chambers prior to extractor engagement. This seems to be a good load for me to stick with now for the expanding bullet.

I'm not happy yet with the solids in the gun but I've made some headway this past week toward that end. Found some RL-15 yesterday and now have it on the way to my address. That should allow me to sort out the solids better now.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
510gr solid BBW#13's and 475gr Non-Cons.

The 475gr Non Cons are shooting the best in my new 500NE. I'm getting around a 1" group with them at 2,415fps with the tip installed. That's 6,150ft/lbs as compared to the traditional 570gr at 2,150fps for 5800ft/lbs of energy.

Todd that is awesome man and to get 1" group, its fantastic.

I have been meaning to ask you about your experimentation with them light bullets for quite a while now, glad you posted it.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

Great to speak with you on the phone the other day. Thanks for the hook up on powder!! I owe you one for sure.

Todd,

Have you tried the 510gr BBW#13 solids in your new 500NE? If so, what results compared with the 570gr bullet. We are liking the 510 in our Merkels and will be shooting more of them tomorrow for data.

I've shot a few so far Mike. Haven't had enough time (or powder) to work with them much just yet. I've got 3 boxes and RL-15 on the way now, so hopefully I'll be able to find a good load with them.

Right now, the 475gr Non-Cons are doing great, and the North Fork 570gr solids are doing OK. More to follow.

In my very limited experience if hit wrong with a .600 it means nothing and if hit in the right spot I can't tell the difference between a .600 and a .375. The big ones are just more fun, that's all, and probably penetrate deeper, but really not needed. That said, I will be taking up to four international hunts this summer (SA, Zimx2, Aust) and will only take my .600. Just a bad habit.
Cheers, mates,
Cal

quote:

All other factors being equal, what is the difference in terminal performance on dangerous game between the .500NE, .577NE and .600NE?

Everything, and I mean everything totally, 100% all the way, "Depends On the Choice Of Bullet"

The Bullet does ALL the work........

In the old days.... Not So Long Ago........ A .577 or .620, was very very UN-Impressive terminally. Why....????? Available Bullet Selection....... .577 and .620... PISS POOR USELESS TERMINAL PERFORMANCE............ I would have taken a 375 over a 577 or 620.. And if you have Any Earthly Idea how I feel about 375, you know, that is a strong Statement. At one time these mighty useless Ultra Bores were nothing but "My Dick is Bigger Than Your Dick", thats all they were.

Fortunately, Today, 577 and 600 NE have been turned around, terminal performance finally equaling their undeserved reputation.... Because of the bullet!

So when one asks Which is Better, this cartridge, or that cartridge, or this rifle, or that rifle, the real question you should ask is.....

What Bullet is available to Accomplish the Mission I want to Accomplish.... With the right bullet.... The rest is rather a moot point................

Terminal Performance is "About the Bullet"....... "What Bullet?".......

Michael

quote:

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!

Michael, you are ANYTHING but conventional, for sure :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Malek,

Great to speak with you on the phone the other day. Thanks for the hook up on powder!! I owe you one for sure.

Todd; don't mention it man, it is my pleasure to help a fellow AR member and a Double rifle shooting aficionado, even if he shoots a 500NE.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
In my very limited experience if hit wrong with a .600 it means nothing and if hit in the right spot I can't tell the difference between a .600 and a .375. The big ones are just more fun, that's all, and probably penetrate deeper, but really not needed. That said, I will be taking up to four international hunts this summer (SA, Zimx2, Aust) and will only take my .600. Just a bad habit.
Cheers, mates,
Cal

Cal first things first, glad to read the positive reports of your progressive recovery and see that you are in the best spirit.

The second thing I do beg to differ a little on this issue concerning the 600ne "In my very limited experience if hit wrong with a .600 it means nothing and if hit in the right spot I can't tell the difference between a .600 and a .375."

I have watched closely many DVDs on animals mainly buffalo which everybody agree that they are some of the hardest animals to put down when their adrenalin is pumping and in almost every incident these animals when they were hit with the 600 even if it the bullet did not hit exactly the CNS they literally crumbled.

If you go over MS DVDs again and watch for it, you will find that to be true. One incident comes to mind is when MS shoots a bull after his handicap client had shot him 4 times with a 375 and Mark had shot him ones with his 500. When Mark approached the laying down buff from behind that buff got up and came charging at him. Marks first shot hit the bull in the bridge of the nose which had no effect what so ever on him and kept on coming, till Mark connected the brain with his second shot which dropped him where Mark was standing.

A similar shot was taken by Mark at another buff again with his 600 he hit him in the mouth (much lower than the bridge of the nose). that buff literally hit the dirt where mark was able to put a finisher through it's boss and into the brain.

This happened on more than one occasion where that 600 crumbled them buffs even when the shot was not that precise.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek:
Thanks for you comments. As I wrote, "In my very limited experience..."
I know the shots of MS you mention. The mouth shot was pretty brutal. My point was a .600 in the heart seems to me about the same as a .375 in the heart, both the same on brain shots, and both the same on gut shots. As much as I love the .600 and try to hunt with mine exclusively, I think they are blown out of proportion when it comes to killing power. But, as mentioned, my experience is very limited. In 2008 I shot a buff poorly with my .600 several times due to shooting high. Others fell to one or two shots and in both cases it was bullet placement over sheer power.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Cal:

I know for a fact that your experience by far outweighs mine which mounts to nil, when it comes to African DG hunting. But I am speaking from the things that I did observe watching documented hunts on DVD.

I do fully agree with you when it comes to bad shot placement. The point I was trying to make is that when the shot was not too bad and at the same time not perfect, the 600 definitely held the edge.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

I asked Mark Sullivan why he shot that buff with a soft??? [The one hit in the Mouth]

He replied, "You noticed that did you!!".

He replied he had run out of solids.

From my personal experience on elephants it does not matter if you use a 9,3x74R, 450/400 or a 450 No2, as long as you make a good brain shot, it does not matter.

I have been told by a few people that have used 450/470 class, the 500 Nitro, the 577, and the 600 Nitro that the 600 is a BIGGER hammer for side body shots on elephants, and on cape buff.

They also stated that the 577 is a deeper penetrater than the 600 on going away shots.

One PH I know told me that he loved his 460 WBY as on elephant hunts he can shoot a wounded going away elephant with his 460W and he will find the bullet in the elephants chest, every time...

African Hunter is the one "Client" that I know that has used all of the above, I hope he sees this thread and will give his opinions.

When picking a double as a Client, there are things to consider.

First is recoil, and recoil recovery.
Also personally I want a rifle I can shoot from an awkward position or on wet slick ground and not slip, or get knocked down...

Also weight. I will, and have always, carried my double 100% of the time. Even Pondoro had a "Gun Bearer" carry his 577 or 600...

Once upon a time I really wanted a 577 or a 600.

However on my first Safari I shot 2 cape buff, 2 cowelephants and a bull elephant.

The PH told me I would be crazy not to continue to use my 450 No2 as in his words, It hits like the HAMMER of THOR".

I took his advice, and never regreted it...


But to answer your question, I would pick the 577 because of its penetration.

I don't know Malek. I'm going to have to disagree with you again to some extent. I've not hunted the 600NE but I have hunted the 500NE extensively and the 577NE some.

The Sullivan 600NE shot in the mouth of the charging buffalo was at an odd angle, with the shooter below the animal, shooting upward. That shot most definitely took out the CNS. Stopping a buff's charge pretty much involves hitting the CNS in some manner. Elephant, not so much. A close miss will stop an Elephant, if only temporarily.

However I have seen a 500NE put a buff down for the count without hitting the CNS. Here is a buff cow my older son took in 2009. He hit it with a 375, frontal shot, just about right, and from right at 40 yards. It spun and attempted to run. I hit it just in front of the left hip, driving the 570gr TSX all the way through and between the shoulders where it exited. Did not hit spine or CNS. You can see the entrance hole in the picture just in front of the left hip.

Upon receiving the shot, the buff stumbled, dropped to it's knees without taking another step and fell on it's side, never to regain it's feet. My son then approached from behind and placed the shot you see near the top of the shoulder, down and into the chest for the finisher.

Point being, that one shot from the 500NE, without hitting the CNS, literally "crumpled" the buff whereas that first shot with the 577NE in my "buffalo in the jesse" hit the animal just behind the point of the shoulder, with the bullet being recovered under the skin on the offside hip. It certainly did the damage but didn't crumple the buff and we ended up with the follow up.

Sorry but this pic was from before I began videoing my hunts. You'll just have to take my word for the description of how it went down!

Hello Gentlemen:

I knew this might stir up the discussion q bit and counted on you Todd for coming through again with a nice good argument.

I have to admit that I don't own a 600 or a 577 or a 500 for that matter. Nor do I have a desire to own any of them that are mentioned above for the same reasons that Tony mentioned in his post. Well possibly save the 500 if it was in the right rifle with the appropriate weight. But again I am very happy with my 470 and thrilled with the way it shoots and handles, so why would I want to own anything bigger since the 470 will handle anything and everything out there, Tony's 450#2 and many others out there are a prime example and can attest to that fact.

Tony, Todd, I don't doubt your experience and knowledge for a second; on the contrary I glean and learn from them and from knowledge and experience of all of those who write here on AR. Only I am stating my observations, as I stated previously, I am not a fan of either of these cartridges.

What I was stating here that I could not help myself but to notice every time I watched DVDs were the 600 was used, not as much the 577, and in particular in MS DVDs. I observed that the 600 has a tremendous obvious effect on Buff.

There were another couple of clips that drove that point home for me. One of them was with a client that shot his buff and Mark with him went after it, the buff charged, the client shot and missed. Mark shot that buff at the bridge of the nose at a similar angle and shot placement of that one that was shot with the 500. That buff's neck was pushed back and tucked in and he fell down where Mark gave it the shot in the top of the Boss.

Another one was of a rouge buff that killed some villagers, Mark went after it, shot it in the chest that buff ran Mark shot again and you could see very clearly that buff literally stumbled at the receiving of the bullet, continued on few strides and fell down at Marks third shot which I doubt very much was needed.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Everything, and I mean everything totally, 100% all the way, "Depends On the Choice Of Bullet"

The Bullet does ALL the work........

Michael

I appreciate that Michael, which is why my question started with "All other factors being equal ...". This includes the bullet.

Gents:
This summer I will post my experiences. If all goes to plan I will have a pair or cape buffalo,a hippo, and some water buffalo in the bag with my .600 Wilkes. Should buy my ticket to Africa next week and I'm still waiting on permits for down under.
Cheers,
Cal

Hey Malek,

Let's call em debates, not arguments!! I know that's what you really meant my friend.

Cheers Buddy!

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Everything, and I mean everything totally, 100% all the way, "Depends On the Choice Of Bullet"

The Bullet does ALL the work........

Michael

I appreciate that Michael, which is why my question started with "All other factors being equal ...". This includes the bullet.

With all of the talk of poor penetration by the .620 bullet I thought I would share some data garnered by that hermit of a man Michael8675309 which can be found about halfway down the page in this link:

Page 157 Michael's terminal bullet performance thread

In one post halfway down you'll find this table

825 BBW#13 NonCon--1441 fps--19 inches Shears
825 BBW#13 NonCon--1914 fps--23 Inches
825 BBW#13 NonCon--2201 fps--43 Inches

900 BBW#13 Solid--1487 fps--52 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1702 fps--61 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1839 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1895 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2010 fps--68 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2161 fps--76 Inches

You can see that even a leisurely lob of one of the .620 CEB #13 solids at much lower velocities than the most anemic of 600NE loads you get damn good penetration - in a caliber that is what an expanding .510 bullet would like to be when it grows up.

Does anyone Need that? I don't know but in answer to the question regarding penetration, all else being equal - the answers are all revealed in Michael's Terminal thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hey Malek,

Let's call em debates, not arguments!! I know that's what you really meant my friend.

Cheers Buddy!

You are absolutely right my friend, that exactly what I meant discussions and debates which I always enjoyed.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
This summer I will post my experiences. If all goes to plan I will have a pair or cape buffalo,a hippo, and some water buffalo in the bag with my .600 Wilkes. Should buy my ticket to Africa next week and I'm still waiting on permits for down under.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal: that is a very nice mixed bag, can't wait to hear about it and read the reports,

Good luck.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Well, I have considered the replies carefully, and they are telling me one thing. I really do not need anything more than my .500NE double.

However, I am still dreaming of a WR Droplock .600NE, which I suppose I should really consider ordering. 2 years isn't that long after all!

I'm going to sleep on it over the next few days, and after that I'll let you know.

Thanks to all for their input

Just reread my post above. Beer really is a great wallet-opener

I'm still thinking ...

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

Beer really is a great wallet-opener
I'm still thinking ...

Keep drinking and keep thinking That wallet needs more opening!

You know you WANT that 600NE WR droplock; and you know you NEED that 577NE WR droplock

Here is an eye opener for you.Money(especially someoneelses) does not make a rifle or a shooter and hunter.You need a good brain and a good heart for that!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is an eye opener for you.Money(especially someoneelses) does not make a rifle or a shooter and hunter.You need a good brain and a good heart for that!

Shootaway,

And what qualifies you to make that statement as you are none of the above?

surestrike,YOU are full of crap.Remember when you were seeing ghosts(in the airport) on your last trip to Zim. Hallucinatios-imagine what you see in the bush!! Have you reported any UFO`s?