quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
O/U DR!
For DG no less!!
Heresy!!!

.................................................................

All you've got to do is hold it and point it like a street punk and your SxS will be shooting just like an O/U.

Over/Under rifles are not really "Double Rifles"; they are just rifles with two barrels. Big difference.
To me anyway.

Just finished re-regulating my 1905 Gibbs 450NE.
I had the bolt repaired as it had become worn. This is the piece that is attached to the top lever and locks the barrels to the action by sliding into the bites on the lugs under the barrels.
Doubles can be finicky to say the least, when the repair was complete all shots were crossing 3+ inches from center at a variety of velocities.
Working with a gunsmith from NEGC it took about 7 or 8 attempts to get the results we wanted. I choose to use Hornady Factory ammo as this seems to be the bench mark out there, but it was running very slow out of my barrels 1980fps from the right and 2004 from the left.
50yrds Hornady Factory center hold 8" target.

I had been shooting 100grs of H4831sc and CEB Solids with good results but a new bottle proved slower so I bumped it up to 102grs.
H4831sc at 25yrds 6 oclock hold 2' target

I then decided to try 92 grns H4350 a load from G. Wrights Book
2 rounds 92grs H4350 50yrds center hold 8"

2 rounds 92grns H4350 25yrds 6 oclock hold

Think I'm done for a while..

Congratulations.
I can only get a target that good when I tape the target to the muzzles.
Cal

That's about as good as it gets.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Just finished re-regulating my 1905 Gibbs 450NE.
I had the bolt repaired as it had become worn. This is the piece that is attached to the top lever and locks the barrels to the action by sliding into the bites on the lugs under the barrels.
Doubles can be finicky to say the least, when the repair was complete all shots were crossing 3+ inches from center at a variety of velocities.
Working with a gunsmith from NEGC it took about 7 or 8 attempts to get the results we wanted. I choose to use Hornady Factory ammo as this seems to be the bench mark out there, but it was running very slow out of my barrels 1980fps from the right and 2004 from the left.
50yrds Hornady Factory center hold 8" target.

I had been shooting 100grs of H4831sc and CEB Solids with good results but a new bottle proved slower so I bumped it up to 102grs.
H4831sc at 25yrds 6 oclock hold 2' target

I then decided to try 92 grns H4350 a load from G. Wrights Book
2 rounds 92grs H4350 50yrds center hold 8"

2 rounds 92grns H4350 25yrds 6 oclock hold

Think I'm done for a while..

Does not seem proper.Something is wrong IMO-fishy at least.

Shootaway:
What the hell are you talking about? Wrong? Fishy? A 50-yard group where the holes touch? You must have taken several courses in being this off-base. No one can be this stupid naturally. I mean no one. You are the absolute master or your craft.
Cal

For what ever it is worth on the 50yrd two hole target I was playing with sight pictures, I shot this target with a courser bead than some of the other targets.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Shootaway:
What the hell are you talking about? Wrong? Fishy? A 50-yard group where the holes touch? You must have taken several courses in being this off-base. No one can be this stupid naturally. I mean no one. You are the absolute master or your craft.
Cal

From my understanding or experience tells me a double should put two holes side by side and spaced about an inch or so apart.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

Does not seem proper.Something is wrong IMO-fishy at least.

I'll have me some of them taters! Umhm!!

Oh, Jeff,

I took my Westley Richards 450/400-3/14 S/N T28xx (delivered to J. Lyons Co. Aug. 31 1908) to Botswana in 1998. I took my first elephant with a Searcy stainless under lever in .577 Nitro.

Ok by you?

quote:

Originally posted by poprivit:
You pay HOW MUCH for a V-C double? … and only about 30% have problems? Say, that's some high quality firearm, gentlemen.

Why, my cheap Ruger #1 in the dreaded .375 Ruger caliber works ALL the time, can put as many bullets through touching holes as my old eyes can see, and will probably be running fine 50 years from now.

And, yes, I'vs been to Africa with it. Worked as advertised.

If you want a double that doesn't cost like an H&H, but is accurate and works - contact Butch Searcy - 760-762-6131 - and go shooting, not regulating.

You're kidding yourself if you think there haven't been a few Searcy DR's with issues as well. I know of at least one that had to be re-regulated. Owned by an AR member here. Butch makes a great rifle, but he's not perfect! Who is? Other than Shoots-a-Cow of course, but then he had issues with his Searcy as well. Probably operator error on that one though!

All makes of DRs are subject to the occasional issue. I mentioned this before but I have a friend that commissioned and recently took delivery of a Holland and Holland Royal that had to be sent back for re-regulation. It happens to the best of them.

The overarching consideration for me is whether or not the company / retailer stands behind the product when issues arise. VC and Ken were 100% in that regard, getting my rifle properly taken care of and in a timely manner, at no cost to me.

That said, additional examples of problems going forward are not beneficial to the company's reputation, regardless of how well they stand behind them. Quality Control has to be addressed. I don't know how their factory's manufacturing process is set up. Is there a "regulation department"? One guy doing all the regulation? One guy in the department that is getting it wrong? Is anyone (read as second shooter) double checking that regulation is spot on after it's been declared 100% but before it's shipped? IDK. But it does need to be addressed quickly.

Like Jorge stated, a couple more VCs that need re-regulation being reported here on AR and all of a sudden, we aren't going to be talking about the number of bridges built any longer.

The only issue I had with my Searcy was a very minor one .A small shim like piece of wood through which the crossbolt passes was broken off(unless they were shims and were never part of the stock) and got into the lever mech and prevented the rifle from opening.If all screws were tight and loctited from the shop this would not have happened.I demand that all my custom bolt rifles are built this way.My Searcy shoots fine and although I have barely shot it all is well.I have taken my Searcy apart and cleaned then tightened the screws and it shoots to the bullseye and regulated like a dream.If I ever to have an issue with it I will pass on the info.
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I also discovered that it does not like molly coated bullets and that it will spray them.This may be so for doubles in general and if so that would be a shootaway discovery.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
O/U DR!
For DG no less!!
Heresy!!!

.................................................................

All you've got to do is hold it and point it like a street punk and your SxS will be shooting just like an O/U.

I've got an O/U 9.3X74R that is going to Arron Little next week to be regulated, because the maker didn't regulate it at all it seems. So as Todd says no matter the brand or barrel configuration they all have problems right out of the factory. However some brands have problems but refuse to fix their mistake, leaving it up to the buyer. That situation is what ruins their reputation, not the mistake!

....................................................................

Todd, don't forget the mustard.


Dutch

Didn't Snowwolfe get beat up here when his VC was not regulated. Funny how this thread is different.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
Didn't Snowwolfe get beat up here when his VC was not regulated. Funny how this thread is different.

That's because it wasn't...

My VC was perfect if you liked a double that would cross at 50 yards and shoot 10 inch groups with Hornady factory 450/400 ammo.
Any of the various reloads I tried would not do any better.

Ken refunded my money and I applied it towards
a Heym and I been happy ever since.

IMO, Jorge continues to act like an arrogant prick thinking he knows everything about every other persons rifle when in fact he never even fired the rifle in question.

PS: edited the post due to a lot of grammar errors using my IPhone.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell everyone here again how great a rifle my Heym has been. Oh, and both of my Chapuis's and my Searcy have also been perfect in the accuracy and regulation department

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
Didn't Snowwolfe get beat up here when his VC was not regulated. Funny how this thread is different.

That's because it wasn't...

A fellow member now owns this rifle, perhaps he'll chime in... As to the arrogant prick, guilty as charged, but I don't lie...

quote:

Originally posted by poprivit:
Oh, Jeff,

I took my Westley Richards 450/400-3/14 S/N T28xx (delivered to J. Lyons Co. Aug. 31 1908) to Botswana in 1998. I took my first elephant with a Searcy stainless under lever in .577 Nitro.

Ok by you?

I was asking about your experience with Searcys in a serious manner. But thanks for your smart ass reply. Nothing you bring forward will be relative to me any longer.

Best,

Jeff

What and with who will you be hunting in Dande,Jeff?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
What and with who will you be hunting in Dande,Jeff?

Rich Tabor

Oh, Jeffery - such thin skin.

Mama has a crying towel for you, and some warm milk.

Hello All,

I just purchased my first Verney Carron Double rifle, a 600 NE. I've only been a VC owner for about a month.

I've resisted jumping in on this discussion, hoping that someone else might clear the air about double rifles and their regulation. No one has, so I'm going to chime in. I'll start with some background info about myself. I state these things not to brag, but to tell you that I'm not some kind of "Forum-Expert" that likes to throw around his opinions, without any actual shooting experience. God knows we have enough of them.

I'll start by saying I've never hunted dangerous game, I've only hunted in the U.S. and Canada. I'm a late bloomer when it comes to double rifles, buying my first Double less than 8 years ago. I've only owned 17 Double Rifles total, and still own 12 of them, having sold 5 over the years. The calibers of my Doubles cover a wide range from .30 cal to .80 cal. They are; 300 Savage - 8mm lebel - 8x57R - 35 Win - 9.3x74R (3) - 375x2-1/2 - 45-70 (2) - 500 bpe - 577-500 bpe (2) - 20-577 NE - 600 Express - 600 Nitro Express - 10 Bore.

I've fired over 1,700 rounds in my double rifles since I've owned them ( 90% of the shooting was over a chronograph ) and I have carefully documented the data for each rifle. This is a habit I developed from being a Reasearh & Developement Engineer trained in accurately recording data in Lab notebooks. I've even sent ammo to have it pressure tested, to keep my handloading within safe pressure limits. I shoot about 6,000 rounds a year, in competition and practice, with various rifles - mostly in vintage single-shot Schuetzen rifles. I'm also a self-trained gunsmith of over 40 years experience with my works being published in Gun Digest, Handloaders Digest, Guns Illustrated, Cartridges of the World, Handgunners Digest, an other shooting publications.

As far as my 17 double rifles go, I've only had the need to re-regulate "one" of them, that being an 1890's Lefaucheux in 8mm Lebel cal. It was shooting 16" crossed at 50 yards. It was sent to JJ and he did a marvelous job of re-regulating it with no sign that the 1890's patina had been altered. Of my other Double Rifles, my Dan'l Fraser 9.3x74R was the next to be troublesome. It was shooting 6" - 8" apart vertical at 50 yds. Although many told me to just send it to JJ, I used the opportunity to learn from this rifle. I learned that different powders, primers, bullets, seating depth, different fillers, and ambient temperature, all impacted the regulation - "even at the same measured velocity". It took over 4 dozen experiments to learn this, and now the rifle shoots point of aim at 50 yds into a 1-1/2" group. With iron sites, my satisfaction level is actually 2" because that's about as good as I can hold with my 64 year old eyes.

Now, here's my point. After all this experimentation, I had my friend shoot this rifle, and he could't achieve the same results I did. He was a good shooter and was experienced with shooting double rifles, but for him, it shot "high" and into 2 distinct groups of 1" each, right and left, about 4" apart. When he handed the rifle back to me, it again shot a 1-1/2" cluster. Yes, each session was about 20 minutes apart with adequate cooling time between 4 shot strings, and all shooting was done standing - with padded arm rests.

The reason for this variation is simple, "he" was not "me". He weighed different, he was a different height, he had a different muscular build, he had a different grip on the rifle, etc., etc., etc. Just to prove my point, next time at the range, try shooting your double rifle with a "loose" grip, and then shoot it with a "tight" grip, and see how it regulates.

I find it a little unsettling that one can be so critical about a Company's regulation of a brand new double rifle. Regulation that is done half way around the World, with who knows what ammo, by who knows what man, of who knows what physical features, at who knows what air density and temperature - all factors determinate in the regulation process. Yes, some say that given a bullet weight at a given velocity, regulation should be the same - not necessarily. I have documented identical velocities and identical bullet weights, shooting 6" different heights with a 0.50" change in bullet seating depth, and similarly with bullets of different shape.

It would be interesting to have VC's regulator, come here with "his" ammo, and have "him" shoot the rifle, to see how it regulates. I find it absolutely amazing that VC stands behind their product to the extent that they would pick-up the tab for re-regulation. Bully for them! That fact alone will make me a loyal VC customer.

The regulation target that comes with a VC double rifle states the brand of ammo used and the grain weight of the bullet. My last VC was an Azur Imperial in 450 3 ¼" NE. Jerome told me he shot it for regulation, and he shot it well. I am about 100# heavier than Jerome (no joke - Jerome is not a big guy, and I am a plus size), and it shot the same for both of us. I find the variation in regulation from shooter to shooter you describe very curious. I have never personally experienced anything like it with my 5 double rifles, and I have let a lot of other folks shoot them.
I would be very interested to hear what experiences other double rifles had had in this area.

Thanks buckstix for that information. Very interesting and thought provoking.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
The regulation target that comes with a VC double rifle states the brand of ammo used and the grain weight of the bullet.

Hello subsailor74,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I know all about regulation targets - here is the regulation target that came with my VC 600 NE.



It gives the bullet weight, the ammo brand, the distance, and the time interval.

quote:

My last VC was an Azur Imperial in 450 3 ¼" NE. Jerome told me he shot it for regulation, and he shot it well. I am about 100# heavier than Jerome (no joke - Jerome is not a big guy, and I am a plus size), and it shot the same for both of us. I find the variation in regulation from shooter to shooter you describe very curious. I have never personally experienced anything like it with my 5 double rifles, and I have let a lot of other folks shoot them.

You mention the physical differences between you and Jerome. I find it amazing that you say there was no difference in regulation of the rifle.

As an example, when you look at the second target posted by "The Norwegian" earlier in this post, you can see his friend fired 2 shots high and right of his 2. (see below)

Although there was a difference in the distance, explaining the "high" - he shooting 25yds and his friend shooting 50yds - his friend also shot to the right". This would indicate a difference in "touque" of the rifle during recoil, likely explained by their physical differences, or differences in rifle holding technique. The difference is subtle, but enough to bring question about regulation if his friend were doing all the shooting from scratch.

I would suggest the next time you are out with your "lot of other folks" doing some shooting, put up a regulation target, and go through the drill of starting with a cold rifle, shooting it in pairs of shots, at 5 second intervals, and then compare those targets to your regulation target.

You might be surprized.

My 470NE VC shoots well. It did shoot at the six o'clock position so I just filed down the V a little.

Off hand at 50

Although there was a difference in the distance, explaining the "high" - he shooting 25yds and his friend shooting 50yds - his friend also shot to the right". This would indicate a difference in "touque" of the rifle during recoil, likely explained by their physical differences, or differences in rifle holding technique. The difference is subtle, but enough to bring question about regulation if his friend were doing all the shooting from scratch.

I would suggest the next time you are out with your "lot other folks" doing some shooting, put up a regulation target, and go through the drill of starting with a cold rifle, shooting it in pairs of shots in 5 second intervals, and then compare the targets to your regulation target.

You might be surprized.[/QUOTE]

I agree this would be an interesting exercise, and I would definitely be surprised if differences in observed regulation were noted. I may try this some day, and I will certainly post results if I do. For now, all my doubles shoot well for me, so I have no problem to solve. Thanks for your very interesting post!

quote:

I agree this would be an interesting exercise, and I would definitely be surprised if differences in observed regulation were noted. I may try this some day, and I will certainly post results if I do. For now, all my doubles shoot well for me, so I have no problem to solve. Thanks for your very interesting post!

Hello subsailor74,

Thanks for the reply.

You are very welcome. And please do post your results if you happen to have others shoot your rifles. I'm always interested in the details and learning more about these fine contraptions that we enjoy so much.

I've been very happy (and somewhat lucky) with my load development for my recently acquired VC 600 NE. I've developed a reduced load that shoots "point of aim" at 50 yds with both 900g Barnes solids and 900g cast bullets.

I'll be using my 600 on our elusive Wisconsin Whitetail Deer this fall. Most pleasing was R1-L1 from a cold gun was exactly 1".

Buckstix - that is really fine shooting! As far as Wisconsin whitetails go, I see you subscribe to the "use enough gun" theory. I look forward to photos of your hunt along with deer you have taken and possibly any trees knocked down with your .600! BTW, I leave for northern Wisconsin in 2 weeks for some grouse and woodcock hunting - nothing better than being in the Wisconsin woods in the Fall.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Buckstix - that is really fine shooting! As far as Wisconsin whitetails go, I see you subscribe to the "use enough gun" theory. I look forward to photos of your hunt along with deer you have taken and possibly any trees knocked down with your .600! BTW, I leave for northern Wisconsin in 2 weeks for some grouse and woodcock hunting - nothing better than being in the Wisconsin woods in the Fall.

Hello subsailor74,

Thanks for the reply.

I like using my toys here in Wisconsin. I harvested a nub buck 4 years ago with my Alex Henry 450-3-1/4" and 2 years ago I harvested a scrub buck with my Carl Labuschagne Brevex 505 Gibbs. Although I do go "over-gunned", I have experienced less meat loss than when I used a .308 win back in the old days. High speed bullets do a lot of tissue damage from hydrostatic shock, where instead these big boys poke a big hole through the animal like using a blunt spear.

Drop me a PM and I'll give you my cell number. If you're not too far north, I'll come up and buy you a cup of coffee one morning.

Buckstix explanation as to POI shift serious consideration as I see this all the time. When there were 3 of us working in the shop it was not at all uncommon for all of us to shoot the same rifle quite a bit while testing it. POI would always be different due to how that rifles recoil was effected by each different body mass, hold, etc.

Often the POI shift is under 1" and sometimes less but it is there and repeatable. Some rifles have arrived at the new owners and we have been accused of not zeroing the scope as the new owner finds the POI 2" high, low, left, right with his ammo and bench set up. I have had to remind a few what those dials are for under the turret caps. Zeroing Irons at times can be a whole other box of rats from one pair of eyes to the next.

I have been amazed at how the POI can change as the shooter becomes much more comfortable with the rifles recoil and dynamics over the course of a few days when shooting a Lott or larger.

Adjusting the Irons by means of replacing a front blade with a higher or lower blade and drifting the rear sight left or right should not be done until an accurate or similar load to the original has been determined or duplicated as the POI may very well walk in the desired POI when this is accomplished. Yet some sight adjustment may be still required. Just because Sir James had it properly zeroed in 1936 with the Ammo of the day mean that a handful of R-15 is going to give yo the exact same results.

As rifleman sight adjustment use to be SOP, what with the Net, 148 "new" bullet designs and 86 new powders it's a wonder we don't have an APP to do it all for us allowing each of us more time to bitch.

Interesting and valuable comments on this thread and many are based on assuming the shooter is a reloader.

But the vast majority, if not all of the new doubles are regulated using factory ammo. So this puts an entire new twist on the situation if a new double will not shoot to the desired point of impact using the ammo specified by the builder.
After all, if the buyer is spending $10,000 or up for a double they expect it to shoot well when they shoot it. It doesn't matter what happens if a friend shoots it or how well it printed on the factory target.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
My VC was perfect if you liked a double that would cross at 50 yards and shoot 10 inch groups with Hornady factory 450/400 ammo.

Hello Snowwolfe,

I can understand your frustration if the rifle is printing crossed with 10" groups. That does sound like a problem that needs attention. But when I see re-regulation numbers like 2-3/4 inches and 3 inches, I begin to wonder if a little time and training might have settled that down.

And yes, not everyone reloads, but I've experienced different "lots" of the same ammo print differently, and I've also experienced different brands with different bullets shoot vastly different. Sometimes it takes a little experimentation (and patience) to determine exactly what a particular rifle likes to digest, before giving up on it.

In addition, I know at least one Double Rifle Author has written that you might need some "time in the saddle" with a new double rifle to acquire a shooting routine. Things like getting used to "rolling with the recoil" the same each time (follow-through) and developing a consistant grip and shouldering technique. All these things will influence where the holes end up 50 meters away.

The issue with the VC is in the past and I wasn't referring to it in my post. I'll chime in if others bring it up but its history to me.

As a reloader I find doubles fascinating to tinker with and enjoy the challenge to find that exact load the rifle likes best. I find your comments to be very informative and they should help others who are trying to maximize accuracy as well as point of impact.
I been pretty lucky as I owned four other brands of doubles and all were boring to find a good load for them. Planning on installing a scope on my Chapuis UGEX 30R soon and I expect a challenge. But since my range will be right out the front door of my reloading shop it should be a fun project.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
But when I see re-regulation numbers like 2-3/4 inches and 3 inches, I begin to wonder if a little time and training might have settled that down.

I'd say a lot of that depends on whether or not you take your big bore double to the range with reduced loads to impress the "Tacticool" crowd as "the guy down there shooting the elephant gun" or if you actually take that rifle full up into the thickest of thickets, looking for mean and nasties that can bite or stomp the living crap out of you like the gun was intended for!

In my case, I tried numerous powders and bullet combinations as well as some factory Hornady DGX ammo the rifle was regulated with. I'm not new to having to sort through a myriad of loads to find the sweet spot with a double rifle. Working with Ken by phone and email, we shot about 300 rounds before sending it to JJ for the work. Had a couple of others who where experienced double rifle shooters shoot it as well. The best, mind you the BEST, any of us could manage was 3.5 inches at 25 yards with the average being more around the 4 to 4.5" range. Acceptable? Maybe marginally but when we moved out to 50 yards, the spread doubled with the BEST being around 6 inches but more often 8". I'm not sure how much "more time or training" with a double I would require!

Sorry, but for me, chasing buffalo or elephant in the jesse with a gun in that condition doesn't cut it. Not to mention that regardless of what the factory shooter claimed at the regulation range, when paying the type of money one of these rifles commands, built to the owner's specifications and not "off the rack", it damn sure better shoot to satisfactory parameters in the owner's hands, otherwise what's the point of having a DR personally commissioned? If that means additional work after initial delivery, it just does ... and at the manufacturer's expense.

That's exactly what Ken and VC did. They stood by their product and made it 100% correct.

Right you are Todd. As usual! Damn, I am beginning to sound like my wife.