NE 450 No 2,

I don't think a.tinker is exceeding original specs, and if so very little.

Kynoch lists the 450 Nitro for Black as shooting a 350gr bullet at 2150fps out of 28" barrels.

The 500/450BPE case is substantially larger, so with similar performance pressure will be lower.

Kynoch didn't list a Nitro For Black load for the 500/450.

JPK

The info I remember indicate a 270 to 300 gr bullet at 1700 to 1900fps. but this is from memory. I am curious as to what exact rifle he has.

For a NA hunting rifle, a 350gr Hornady at around 2000+ fps or so sounds like a good rifle to me...

Tolley is known to have built rifles for stout loads.
No exception here.
This 3-1/2" version of the 500/450 express is from NA&A, and was the first cartridge to have been named 'magnum'

By name, it's the 500/450 Magnum Express 3-1/2", and it calls for 5-1/2 drams powder (engraved on barrels).
used a 360gr bullet.
It goes faster than the 3-1/4" BPE
I've owned it for years, been shooting it for years.
Flat shooting bottleneck ripper DR for NA

The rifle is a jones back action sxs, fluid barrels, single standing sight, covered in fine scroll with lions tigers hyenas and some sort of large waterbuck, surely built for a Raj, weighs 10lbs (!)



-Tinker

I would like to see pictures for sure...

What are your modern powder loads for it?

I'm burning Varget.
76gr powder with Fed215 and 21gr dacron.

Rifle doesn't seem to care for any other powder or the lighter bullets.

I'll have to dig for the photos.
They're on a server somewhere - I'll find them.



Cheers
Tinker

No2 here you go.

You'd commented on this rifle - eight years ago.


Look Here



Cheers
Tinker

I will add that I develop loads in my double on the above rest with 50Lbs of shot in it. Once I get my loads shooting to proper regulation and to point of aim...I practice off sticks and off-hand.

With and n=1 (my one .500 NE)...it shoots to the exact same POI whether on the bench or on sticks or off-hand.

I am just not steady enough to get the precision I want on load work-up offhand.

Tinker I remember that rifle now, thanks for the link.

As you know, but others might not, the 450 No2 NE case is not only longer than the other 450 cases, at 3 1/2" vs 3 1/4" it is a lot bigger around as well, so I do not think you load would be too hot for that rifle.

As good as that load shoots I would not even worry about another load, I wold call it good.

The only thing you might do is try a lead bullet for plinking and practice as they are easier on the barrel.

As I have stated before I have used that 350 Hornady RN at muzzle velocities from 1800 to 2330fps with perfect results.

Nice double.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


I will add that I develop loads in my double on the above rest with 50Lbs of shot in it. Once I get my loads shooting to proper regulation and to point of aim...I practice off sticks and off-hand.

With and n=1 (my one .500 NE)...it shoots to the exact same POI whether on the bench or on sticks or off-hand.

I am just not steady enough to get the precision I want on load work-up offhand.

I have tried my double on a rest, it shot very high. I don't recall if it spread or converged differently, only that it shot very high, like a bolt rifle will do if you rest the barrel on the bags or directly on sticks rather than the forearm or your hand, respectively.

JPK

I haven't messed with that load over these few past years one bit.
I'm not worried at all about the rifle handling this load. It's been fine for all this time.
It hits very well and very consistently at 200 yards. I'm sure it will be equally consistent on the 300yd steel.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


I will add that I develop loads in my double on the above rest with 50Lbs of shot in it. Once I get my loads shooting to proper regulation and to point of aim...I practice off sticks and off-hand.

With and n=1 (my one .500 NE)...it shoots to the exact same POI whether on the bench or on sticks or off-hand.

I am just not steady enough to get the precision I want on load work-up offhand.

I have tried my double on a rest, it shot very high. I don't recall if it spread or converged differently, only that it shot very high, like a bolt rifle will do if you rest the barrel on the bags or directly on sticks rather than the forearm or your hand, respectively.

JPK

I do put my hand on the rest and grip it like I was holding it so that the forend does not touch the rest. Shoots exactly to the same POA as it does off sticks or off-hand.

That is the trick, holding the barrels like you would off hand, and why I can shoot off bags so long as the front hand is holding the barrels.

JPK

I guess I have to agree with all thats said, unless I missed a post or two..Never had any problems and most doubles are not as picky as they have been reported to be. Not anymore complicates than a bolt gun IMO..

I will add that I shoot the rear trigger first under all circumstance and POI has never changed one bit, so that's a myth IMO..I shoot the rear first so my finger doesn't bounce off and get me a double fire, thats just too exciting..

I shoot flat nose solids, cup points and Barnes X in all my doubles and no problems yet, and that includes some English guns and of course the modern doubles, so thats another myth.

Then 4831 blows up English rifles, no doubt the guns probably blew up, but I doubt that the culprit was 4831 powder, unless it was too much 4831. I have used it in doubles for over 50 years, mostly Jefferys, Navy Arms, Searcys and a few others.

IMR-3031 rings barrels, thats another, but lots of folks used and still use it, and with great results, encluding some very well know double rifle experts..I have never used it because I fell victem to the "yellow journalism" of the day, but would use it today if I felt the need.

You must not shoot a double off bags as the right barrel recoils to the right and the left barrel recoils to the left or visa versa? damn I forgot..But Sweet Thang my double shot to the same POI off the top of a fence post, or a rock for that matter, and from a bench rest to the same POI as from off hand or from my hand resting on a tree limb..So did my Navy Arms and both were 450-400s..Never tried my 470 Searcy and 450-400 Searcy from any position than off my hand, again perhaps I fell victem to "Yellow Journalism" ???? who knows.

So much misinformation from the old days on doubles that its scary, but alas its just a lot of conversation that probably generated over too many Sundowners at the end of a day hunting in the dark continent.

The world of the double rifle is filled with intreg, black magic,drug induced brain farts, witches brew, white lightening, and folks that is jest plumb et up with tech!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Not anymore complicates than a bolt gun IMO..

Sorry Ray, but I could not disagree more...

I have developed loads for dozens of double rifles.

I can honestly say, I do not consider them any harder to develop loads for than a single barrel rifle.

BUT, they go by DIFFERENT RULES. Because they are a DIFFERENT breed of cat, so to speak.

I will say I have found it MUCH easier to find a load with a lighter bullet, my 75% rule, and lighter loads, the Nitro for Black load technique, to hit the same point of impact with double rifles vs single barreled rifles.

Gentlemen if anyone here doubts anything Tony (NE 450 No2) has posted here, I can tell you I have witnessed examples of everything has posted first hand. If Tony says it you can take it to the bank! That guy KNOWS of what he speaks!

I have found over the years that the smaller faster chamberings are much harder to find loads that regulate properly, than the big bores. The key word here is “PROPERLY”, where regulation is concerned. Many people think they have a double load that regulates, when it really doesn’t and that is one thing that causes some to think a double rifle is a rifle that is only usable out to about 50 yds or 100 yds max.

Then you have some doubles that will not regulate no matter what recipe is used. That is because they were not physically regulated properly, or at all, by the maker. In that case the rifle must be regulated, or re-regulated by someone who knows how it is done properly!

Tony is right about the 75% rule! It is a bullet weight that is as close to 75% of the normal BULLET, not 75% of the powder charge with full weight bullet! IMO, reducing powder charge by 25% is a dangerous thing to do, with large cases in any rifle, in many rifles but especially in a vintage double rifle. New barrels on a vintage double rifle destroys it’s collector value and they simply don’t look good either. The loss of the barrels is not the only worry, the loss of a couple of fingers on the hand holding the forearm will seriously hinder your dexterity!

The one thing that will sometimes change the rifles ability to shoot to proper regulation is the addition of a very heavy scope, & mounts most times more so on a rifle that is very light, and shooting a fast cartridge! Todd Williams found that with his little Chapuis 9.3X74R. He luckily found a load that worked but only after some real hair pulling work-up.

...................................................................................................................................