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Not wanting to Hijack any of the other current threads on this subject, I have a few Random thoughts... I have personally developed, and helped develop loads for a whole bunch of double rifles. From 9,3x74R and up to 500 3". Whether it was a 100 year old British Double rifle or a new made double rifle I have NEVER had any real trouble developing a load with Softs and Solids that did not shoot with exceptable regulation to 100 yards... In fact, I cannot remember ever having to change anything about the sights to get POA/POI. Also, I have never had a double rifle in 450/400 to 470 not respond near perfectly to my 75% rule. Also I have never had a double rifle, 450/400 to 470, not respond to Nitro for Black loads to 50 yards. [NFB loads will need more "UP" at 100 yards because of their lower velocity, but they have always regulated well and hit to the sights out to 50 yards]... I think a lot of the problems others have are due to shooting technique. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | ||
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Re: Shooting technique for doubles. First, I do not develop loads off of a bench, even a standing bench. I have hunted with my doubles in Texas, Idaho, Montana, Alaska, Canada, Zimbabwe, and I have been to Botswana, and Mozimbaque, and I have yet to see any type of bench, standing or other wise.. I shoot Standing at 25 yards. I shoot Standing and Kneeling at 50 yards. I shoot Kneeling at 100 yards, with a 450/400 and under I shoot sitting at 100 yards. After I get the proper load for a double I shoot off of sticks to check Point of Impact. I do not let the rifle touch the sticks. My left arm touches the sticks, just enough to steady me a little... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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When I shoot a double rifle, or any rifle off hand for that matter I use a method that Elmer Keith somewhat described. I shoot right handed, so: I grip the pistol grip HARD/FIRM. My left hand is foward on the forend [I prefer the Splinter Forend], I grip it HARD. My left elbow is pointing directly at the ground. I PULL the rifle into my shoulder with as near 100 lbs of force as I can. My face is on the stock HARD. My trigger finger is on the trigger at the first joint, this keeps it from slipping off and causing a doube discharge. My shoulder is locked FIRM. When the rifle goes off, I take the recoil at the WAIST, MY UPPER BODY IS LOCKED. After the shot, as I recover from the recoil I move ONLY my trigger finger to the second trigger. Yes, you will have a LOT of finger on the trigger. I re aim and if necessary press the trigger for the second shot... I seriously MAN HANDLE a double rifle. It "ain't" no Target rifle and should not be shot like one. I use the same Technique for a hard kicking single barreled rifle as well. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I use a different technique when shooting in competition at 200 to 500 Meters off hand.. I use another different technique when shooting an AR15/M16 at multiple suspects in a Dope House... Sometimes you Finess the rifle. Some times you Drive the rifle. With a hard kicking rifle YOU CONTROL IT. Just my experience, and just IMHO. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks, good stuff. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Your technique with a DR is spot on! This is exactly how I mount a double, and how I teach new shooters of big bores to soak up recoil. This method eliminates people getting hit in the eye with a scope, and bruised cheek bones, and bruised middle fingers(however that happens)  Your whole body above the waist should move as one unit. In my case, that's 150-170 pounds of recoil buffer, as I weigh 230 total.Great information here, from a true shooter! ND  Stephen Grant 500BPE Joseph Harkom 450BPE | |||
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You're preaching to the choir. Makes 100% sense to me. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I have found that my rifle shoots better than I can shoot off hand or off sticks. So when developing loads I shoot off of a standing bench, which allows for an almost off hand position with the exception that my left elbow (I am left handed) rests on the bench top and my right hand on bags placed tall enough to emulate an off hand position. With a standing bench you also take recoil at the hips, as you would in the field or at targets off hand. The only rifle I have worked up loads for is my elephant rifle. I have found that working up a load that shoots to poa is simple, though it takes about an afternoon per load to get it "perfect," or to determine that a particular powder and bullet combination isn't going to cut it. When starting out with a new powder or bullet, I load two, shot two until I'm getting close to the theoretical figure 8 on its side. Then I load four shoot four and make adjstments, load four shoot four... until it is right. With the loads I have developed, I have found that there is a plateau where with incremental increases in velocity, produced by incremental increases in powder charge, the rifle will shoot to the same poa, with the same spread, that being the center to center measurement of the barrels at the muzzles. I work to find the top of that plateau, and that takes some time. When I am finished, I want my elephant loads to shoot single composite groups at 50yds, with no spread. That means the barrels are converging slightly, and at 100yds, about as far as I am confident with express sights for non-dangerous game, I have the same spread as the distance between the centers of the muzzles - but at that range, I cannot produce the figure 8. At 50yds, with the slightly converging loads and NF FP's I can shoot 1" composite four shot groups, sometimes better if I'm having a good day. With Woodeighs, about 1.5". Your 75% Rule loads off of the Woodleigh loads shoot very well, with a minor change in powder charge. JPK JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I've got two rifles that would have changed your opinion on that statement. Firstly, that Chapuis 9.3x74R of mine with the scope mounted. No scope, digested everything I fed it. With the scope, completely unwilling to cooperate. Crossed TSX 286gr bullets off the paper at 50 yards with the scope. 250gr CEB Safari Raptors with IMR 4831, 12" apart at best at 50 yards. 250gr CEB Safari Raptors with IMR 4064 and a pinch of Dacron, spot on. Take the Dacron out, crosses about 4" at 50 yards. But then again, it wasn't regulated with a scope installed. Second one, my current VC 500NE. That rifle eventually needed to be re-regulated. Once I got it back from JJ, it digests pretty much anything you feed it. Regarding your technique descriptions ... 100% spot on. | |||
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Double Rifle Shooting Technique: An under discussed topic- well done Tony My additions: I do use a standing bench- I no longer have the hand/arm strength Tony has- Also-The 75% rule has worked on several doubles for me as well- The primary thing I would add is- stance - especially for shooting -Up Close- A More Squared stance Up Close is preferable- Primary Reason: Lateral Movement Ability With a more traditional rifle stance As in Match rifle The shooter points the off hand hip and shoulder almost at the target- You are then however largely limited to movement toward the dominant (trigger) hand- I would suggest a more squared stance is in order- as with the Bill Yeatts "Instinctive Shooting" Or Churchill style- In Shotgunning this stance enables shooting right , left, overhead , behind, etc Largely due to flexibilty at the waist- With a double rifle these attributes are not as important- lateral movement is- Placing your offhand foot ever so slightly forward of your dominant hand foot- leaving your torso almost square to your POA- Gives the ability to much more easily move to either side- Besides this most important advantage- The shooter also get faster second shot times- By having both arms forward- and forward/rearward flexibility at the waist- the downward pulling force is increased over a side stance- where two arms provide a downward force rather than only the offhand being the dominant source of down force- One other thought- A double rifle is an outgrowth of a double shotgun- originally designed as a device meant to be brought to an eye already fixed on a target- example- we "normally" square to a "target" to look at it- to engage in conversation- to point at something- to photograph something- Squaring to a target with a double rifle is a "normal" process- turning sideways to a target is a "learned" artifice My 2 cents- Your mileage may vary | |||
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Todd Sorry to hear of you difficulties- my experience largely matches with Tony's- After 30+ double rifles- in 40+ years- I have had very few (and mostly over/under) double rifles that were difficult to get regulated with my handloads- Even with the addition/subtraction of optics-(7 rifles) (generally the worst rifles for me were the Browning/Winchester O/U's) As to SxS rifles- By far the lighter and faster calibers were more trying in load development- (especially .240 and .280 Flanged ) Optics have seemed relatively irrelevant | |||
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450 (and all): I am very recoil tolerant (read:idiot ) so I test my loads off the bench at 25, 35 & 50 yards. I do place my left hand on the bags that I stack high enough so I have close to a "standing" posture whilst sitting. I do notice I have a tendency to cant the rifle so unless I really focus most of my groups are "right wing down". I'm going to try your method so what (if any) changes to the regulation can I expect? thanks!USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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On the subject of shooting position and POI and may I say regulation, after all what is regulation besides two barrels keeping their respective POI. The actual sight picture never lies.The only thing that lies is your brain telling you what it thinks it saw when you take a rifle off a rest and do not hold it steady. | |||
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If a rifle is troubleshooting it is because, 1-poor load and or components 2-bedding or structural issue 3-copper fouling 4-bore erosion 5-oil in bore | |||
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In my experience, you can expect no changes in poi if the only contact with the bench is your hand on the bags and an elbow on the bench. I also think that the canting will end if you shoot offhand, off sticks as described by NE or off a standing bench with only a hand on the bags and an elbow on the bench top. I say this because when I shoot rifles off of a sitting bench I have to watch a tendency to cant the rifle, but it seems to disappear when I'm not sitting down. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Once again....Great Thread.....and then..... Mac | |||
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Thanks for that JPK. I'm going to try it and let you all know. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Gents: Maybe before any of us posts here we should PM Shootaway for the facts. If not, then after he posts that should be the end of the thread as the truth is now part of the record. One can't add to what he states. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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 Mike | |||
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I shoot from the bench but I a different way as with my single bbl. rifles : 1. I hold the forend and rest my hand (not the rifle) on the rest ; 2. I steady my shooting hand on a sandbag, not the stock ; 3. the rifle isn't supported by anything but my hands and the only contact with the bench are my elbows. After bench shooting,  I confirm results by shooting standing at 50 m.  André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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450. Lots of great info. Thanks Larry | |||
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Some other things to take into consideration: Some double rifles are just not regulated properly from the factory. Not enough shooting, time and effort is being put into the regulation process. Some double rifles are just way more finiky than others. Some double rifles are just not finiky at all. I have seen even one grain difference ion powder to make a big difference. I have also seen a change in bullet, even of the same make and weight, ie solids and softs make a big difference. I have seen some doubles thet were very different with different powders, like 470 Evans double. However I have seen doubles that were "not that finiky". For instance my 450 No2. It will shoot full power loads with IMR 3031, IMR 4831, and RL 15, with the same powder charges [different weight charges with the different powders of course] to the sights with excellent regulation with several different 480 and 500 gr bullets. By the time NF 450gr solids were avialable I was using RL 15, only one grain more put rthe 450gr NF's into the same group as the other bullets. Also with this rifle the 75% rule works with Hornady 350gr RN bullets with all the 3 powders. Im use IMR 3031 with the 350 bullets as I have a lot of it on hand. All of these loads hit close enough together to 100 yards that I do not change anything when switching between loads. Also in this double the Nitro for Black loads with IMR 4198, and fifteen grains of poly filler hit to the sights, and regulate perfectly at 50 yards. I I have NFB loads with 300 and 400 gr bullets. Because of the lower velocity NFB loads do hit lower at 100 yards. Also these NFB loads make a big bore double rifle a PLEASURE to shoot, and great for deer and pigs, as well as for practice/plinking. Velocities with the 300gr RPHP bullet, 1878fps, the 400gr RPSP about the same, and a 400gr cast linotype bullet,1822fps. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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When I was developing loads for the 450 No2, with RL15, after finding good loads at 25 and 50 yards I starting shooting at 100 yards. All of the loads hit lower than I liked. SO, I reduced the powder charge one grain and it raised the point of impact several inches. It made no difference at 25 or 50 yards. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony a wonderful and educating post. Mike | |||
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Mike, as you know I have shot your 450 No2 and it is a FINE double rifle. Have you shot any 350gr Hornady RN bullets in your gun using the 75% rule? I cannot remember. For those of you that may not know, the 450 No2 Cartridge is the favorite of George Caswell, of Champlin Arms. He is the one that ordered several of them from Famars. They are most excellent doubles. Mike, also tell you sweet wife I said HI.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Some threads, a very few,are so good that I make a hard copy. This one is that good. Thanks 450 No. 2. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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450no2: I shoot the Hornady 350 grainers and a full charge of powder for the 75% rule and the accuracy is fine. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Gentlemen, Thanks for your complements. jorge, JPK, Andre, and others, Yes, if you Understand double rifles, and use a front rest lightly, and use a light rest for your elbow, then it can be beneficial to you when developing loads. Many people just have NEVER done any shooting off hand... Many times I have had a "student" of mine shoot his double rifle off hand at 50 yards, and also shoot his under moa scoped bolt rifle off hand at 50 yards, off hand. Also both at 100 yards, off hand...  Suffice to say, after a couple of more days shooting, the "student", with proper technique was bad to the bone...  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks Cal. Actually, I have never known of a double rifle that did not shoot good with my 75% rule loads. This is with double rifles from 450/400 to 500 NE. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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To reiterate, GREAT thread 450! Regarding the 450NE and just to be clear, the 75% rule means using 75% of the load you normally use with 350gr bullets or ALL bullet weights for practice loads? Also, am I correct in assuming my "right wing down" shot pattern (right barrel printing slightly lower to the right) means I am canting the rifle off the bench? USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Yes, NE 450's 75% Rule is using a ~350gr bullet over your load for thr 480's. The "right wing down" may be the result of canting the rifle, but only if you are canting the rifle. It could also be imperfect regulation of the barrels. If you look at groups shot by DR owners posted here you will see that a little vertical spread between barrels is not uncommon. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Gentlemen. The 75% rule, is to use a bullet that weighs around 75% of your normal elephant/cape buff bullet, with the SAME powder charge you are using for the full weight bullet. You are NOT reducing the powder charge. For instance in a 450/400, that uses a 400gr bullet for elephant and cape buff, with the 75% rule you would use a 300gr bullet, with the SAME powder charge. You might have to go up or down a couple of grains to get best regulation, but many times the same charge works perfect. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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450no2: Have you done any work with the "other" 75% rule--that of reducing the powder charge by 25% and keeping the same bullet weight? I have done this quite often. Accuracy is not quite as good as with the traditional method but is ok for plinking and informal off hand shooting. I just make sure I use kapok to keep the powder next to the large rifle magnum primer. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Hi Tony, I shoot 570 gr bullets over 96 gr R-15 in my .500 NE. 75% of 570 is 427. The only small jacketed bullet I know of for the .510 rifle is the 450 gr Woodleigh. Is 450 close enough to 75% (79%) of 570 to work with your rule? Also...some people load this bullet with a reduced charge as well (86 gr of R-15 with a Kynoch wad) and say that will shoot the same as a 570 with full house load. Any thought on that??? I have not yet tried either. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, For 450 shooters, the bullet weight of choice for the 75% rule is 350grs, but that bullet is actually 73% of a 480 grainer, and my 458wm double shoots pretty well with the 350's and that is 70% of the 500's. (375grs would be right on 75%.) I think the gist is get as close to 75% of the bullet weight as possible, and then you may have to play with the load a little bit. I predict success. I wonder if the reduced bullet weight/reduced powder charge load said to shoot well matches the Nitro for Black loads NE 450 No 2 refers to? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK For reference here - My Tolley 500/450 Magnum Express 3-1/2" double rifle uses 450no2 NE brass. My rifle was set up for a 5-1/2 Dram load. The Hornady 350gr SNRN gets 2025fpsMV at regulation. Perhaps someone here can share their 450no2 NE 75% load with that bullet including velocity. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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As one of the newest members of the DRSS, I really do appreciate all this information. Thank you ! | |||
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ledvm Yes I would try that bullet. If it does not work then try the .510" 440gr Woodleigh for the 500BPE. Also Hawk bullets will make you most anything you want weight wise for your big bore double. My 450/400 3 1/4" double is a .408 bore rifle. For my 75% loads in it I use the Hawk 300gr with the .025jkt. I use this thin jacket so the bullets will expand on deer and pig sized game. And they do, they are a most excellent hunting bullet. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I cannot personally recommend dropping the powder charge 25%. I have not tried that, and I will not be doing it. When I load Nitro for Black loads I use IMR 4198. I have shot several hundred of them in my 450 No2 and in my 450/400 with excellent results, as well as other doubles in 470 and 450/400 3". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tinker, tell me more about your rifle. Is it a single shot underlever or a double? What load is the rifle profed for? As you know it was a Black powder cartridge at first, and later loaded with smokeless. What are your current powder loads and bullets that you are using??? If you are shootng 350 gr bullets at 2025fps you are exeding original ballistics by fair amount, if I remember correctly. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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