As I,ve never used a double,,,, What is the opinion of any one about learning to operate the cocking piece of the Kriegoff or Blaser sxs doubles...,,, I hunt sometimes in extremely thick brush and have always been concerned about a double comeing off safe too easily What is the relationship of the grip area and the opening lever.. Is it uncomfortably high up or foward........????Thanks ... gum boot ..

You should not be overly concerned about a traditional safety coming off too easily, imo.

If you are really accustomed to traditional safeties, like me, you might find the cocking program hard to love. But if you work to become accustomed to it it will be second nature. One PH I hunt with has a 470 and loves his Kreighoff. It is second nature to him and no handicap.

JPK

Neiter the Krieghoff or Blaser have a "safety". You carry it uncocked and you want to shoot you simply push what looks like the safety forward to cock it. The mechanism is firm enough that I can't imagine doing it by accident......but it's not a safety.

Go to the Krieghoff web-site and it explains it clearly. I think it's called the combi-cocker,
http://www.shootingsports.com/krieghof/cata/CLASSIC.htm
Here's the link

This is sort of off topic but Taylor related in one of his books about the safety on one of his rifles mysteriously going off a couple of times for no apparent reason. I had that happen one time when I was hunting ith my 470 Heym. Pretty strange stuff.

It is always a good idea to keep a check on the rifle to make sure the safety is still on while tramping through the bush.

But in the worst case, it could only cost you a PH and a tracker or two.

gumboot, IMO, the cocking thing of the Blaser and Krieghoff is too slow and could cost me time that cannot be spared in a DG hunting situation.

May be "slow" for you Dan, but I automatically cock my Krieghoff as I shoulder the weapon.

Why not ask Santa for a home gym?

Thank you every one for your comments.........If I have a good year financially there may be a double under my next christmas tree...........

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is sort of off topic but Taylor related in one of his books about the safety on one of his rifles mysteriously going off a couple of times for no apparent reason. I had that happen one time when I was hunting ith my 470 Heym. Pretty strange stuff.

This is why I'd like to have a "BARRED SAFETY" (also called a stalking safety)on all my double rifles! I have that feature on a Westley Richards 500/450 double, and I love it!

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
Neiter the Krieghoff or Blaser have a "safety". You carry it uncocked and you want to shoot you simply push what looks like the safety forward to cock it. The mechanism is firm enough that I can't imagine doing it by accident......but it's not a safety.

Go to the Krieghoff web-site and it explains it clearly. I think it's called the combi-cocker,
http://www.shootingsports.com/krieghof/cata/CLASSIC.htm
Here's the link

DB BILL, the krieghoff works that way, but the blaser does not, the Blaser must be recocked each time the rifle is broke open for any reason.While the Krieghoff re-cocks it's self after fireing the rifle and breaking it open to reload, as long as you don't touch the combi-cock! The Blaser also has a hood above the chambers that could be a henderance to a quick reload, or clearing the chambers. That in addtion to the AUTO de-cocking of the rifle when opened could just be the two tools MURPHY needs to get you killed!

Mac,

The stalking safeties are on hammer rifles and they hold the hammers.

What you are talikng about is a bolted safety and it blocks the safety from silding forward to the "fire" position. The safety prevents the triggers from being pulled.

In conjunction with intercepting sears, a bolted safety makes a double rifle as safe as any rifle can be.

But there is the trade off, it takes a moment to flick the bolt before flicking the safety. And you must remember to flick the bolt. I did when very suddenly mock charged by a coe elephant in Chewore this Sept. But I wasn't sure I would remember.

JPK

i have the blaser 95 (single shot) and the arming mechanism I would not want on a DG double. On the 95 i don't mind it so much because I'm always taking time with making a shot, not so with the double. It take a long hard push to arm the mechanism & I for one don't even want an automatic safety on a DG rifle

Way too slow for a DR.
-------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

The stalking safeties are on hammer rifles and they hold the hammers.

What you are talikng about is a bolted safety and it blocks the safety from silding forward to the "fire" position. The safety prevents the triggers from being pulled.

Bolted, Barred, and stalking safeties are all made for the same purpose. To avoid accidently fireing the rifle! They are all stalking safeties, with the slideing barrs on the hammer rifles, The BARRED, or BOLTED safeties on the hammerless rifles as you state. I have examples of them all.

quote:

In conjunction with intercepting sears, a bolted safety makes a double rifle as safe as any rifle can be.

That is absolutely correct! The only two things safer for the people around the shooter is either an unloaded, rifle, or a Krieghoff combi-cocker rifle. For the shooter himself it is a non-auto safety, in conjunction with intersepters.

quote:

But there is the trade off, it takes a moment to flick the bolt before flicking the safety. And you must remember to flick the bolt. I did when very suddenly mock charged by a coe elephant in Chewore this Sept. But I wasn't sure I would remember.

JPK

As I said I have them all but they are not meant to used all the time, and I don't! They are a double safety to be used when the rifle is being carried through thick thorn, but where the rifle must be loaded, as tracking a Buffalo, or ele through thick stuff. Once the target is getting close, the barr, or Bolt is eased off, and the safety left "ON", till the last second. With the hammer rifles only the barrel you are about to fire is un-barred, at the time you are about to fire the rifle. The other place these things are used is when you must hand the loaded rifle to a tracker to negocieate rough countery, or for him to carry, for a while.

The hammer rifle I have with the barrs, has two slotts, one that holds the hammer nose away fron the fireing pin, like a HALF COCK, and has another that holds the hammers at full cock, which I never use unless hunting alone!

Like you I think most who use them all the time, will, sooner, or later forget them at the wrong time!

My rule on my bolted safety is when I can see DG game it is unbolted. When I have already shot and we are following up it is unbolted - though there are two times the terrain and foliage got me to bolt the safety for a stretch.

The cow in Chewore was unseen and came barreling out of the bush without warning. Because I practiced and am ever mindful of the bolt, I insinctively flicked it off, and was ready to flip the safety had I needed to mount my rifle. But she stopped at ten or twelve yards so no need to mount the rifle.

Until this incident though, I couldn't be sure that the practice would lead to instinctive action.

BTW, I believe, strongly, that for DG hunting your rifle should be loaded from the time you leave the truck til the time you get back to the truck. No matter what type of DG rifle you carry.

JPK

I own a Krieghoff Classic and I thought I would have a hard time with the combi-cocker also. My worries were totally unfounded. After using it a little it is second nature to cock and fire. Really no different than taking any other gun off safe. Just practice (dry fire) with it and you should have no problem.

I have considerable experience with the Krieghoff combi-cocker. I have a shooting and hunting partner who has a Classic with three sets of double rifle barrels, plus a set of 20 gauge barrels. I've shot it quite bit and have had plenty of opportunity to practice with it. It's the worst safety system I've ever used. I'd be reluctant to hunt ordinary game with it, let alone dangerous game.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't know. I suspect that when the poop hits the fan, most would probably push/cock the K safety fast enough, subconsciously.

I have never used one in such an occasion but on those occasions with other rifles I don't remember ever flipping off the rifle dafety, regardless of type. Unless your thumb is broken, or plagued with arthritis, I suspect the safety is fast enough.

JPK ,,I agree with you as far as being chambred up when in DG country..............That is what I like so much about the Ruger 77mk2 safty it is as safe as a firearm can be until its needed......And it Never has come off full safe on me........I wondered what looked different with the Blaser, Why did they put a shroud on the chambers.......400 Nitro ,, what was it about the Combi Cocking system ... .. As Ive never even used a double shotgun much , Is it a high maintainence device.... Do they fail or break down often.........THANKS GB>

I'm not going to engage in a debate over Krieghoff and Blaser safety/cocking devices and their use in the field, however I have field experience with both to relate.

I owned and traded off the Blaser S2 in a medium bore cartridge. I did not like the cover over the breech, but I shot the rifle well and it was easy to find ammo that regulated well. It was traded in a deal to get a DG caliber in another left handed rifle.

I now own and have used the Krieghoff system (on a Classic Big 5 & Hubertus single shot) both here and on DG & PG in Africa.

I've practiced and have become proficient with my rifles.

In the field, NO problems. The combi system is second nature to me. Much dust and LOTS of rain had no effect on the rifles functioning or performance. I took off the stock upon return just to clean it up and no signs of any problem, corrosion, etc.

Will (above) is correct. I never even noticed the combi cocking device in the field when facing a cape buff. Mount, safety off, bang, dead buff.

Worked as advertised. I'll use it again next time with no second thought about it.

If you ever get my way, you are welcome to visit and try it out for your self. The Classic now sports 2 sets of barrels and is a blast to shoot in both in the 500/.416 and 9.3x74R.

Good luck.

I think the love/hate issue with these decockers is more one of tradition than it is actual field time issues. There could be a few situations where that extra hundredth of a second could cost you but some DR purists insist on extractors rather than ejectors and that can cost some serious time if things really get sideways.

Several times in sketchy situations I’ve seen hunters permanently bend triggers and safeties so I can’t imagine an otherwise healthy individual not being able to muster the strength for a decocker during an in-your-face scenario.

A lot of competitive shotgun shooters are scared to death of double triggers… that they might make a mistake and not smoothly move from one trigger to the other on quick pairs. They also whine that it messes up the correct placement of the pistol grip.

Double rifle shooters usually insist on double triggers and don’t seem to make an issue of the pistol grip placement.

You have to make your own decision between tradition vs. innovation.

Kyler

quote:

You have to make your own decision between tradition vs. innovation.

That sounds like it is right out of some sales manual.

And actually, with all due respect, manual cocking mechanisms preceded automatic cocking mechanisms. It started with hammer guns.

There are a number of makers that still offer manual cocking mechanisms. Heym is one of those. They are cheaper than their rifles that cock with the breaking of the barrels. That tells me they are less expensive to make.

But Heym does not offer manual cocking rifles in dangerous game calibers. I wonder why?

And I really don't agree with the comparisons of a rifle to be used against dangerous game to a shotgun used for competitive clay pidgeon busting.

First, there is a large difference between a rifle and a shotgun. Second, there is a huge difference between shooting at an inaminate target versus shooting something that can kill you. Or a target that costs 10 cents to a target that will cost you upwards of $25,000 or more if you fail to kill it.

Finally, most of the folks posting on this thread are providing feedback based on their actual field experience. I think it is very unfair to dismiss their input as driven by tradition or as some rant of a purist.

Some people do very well with the Krieghoff and don't care about the mechanics. In most cases, that is because they shoot the rifle a lot - so much that it becomes second nature. Most of us have spent a lifetime with military, bolt and single shot rifles becoming used to "safety off" to fire.

Oh, come on Jim. The K safety in the end is probably a bit slower but it can be learned.

Look how different rifle safties are. The tang safety like most double shotguns and rifles, the wing safety on an old Mod. 98, the wing safety on a Mod. 70, the cross bolt on semi-autos, and there are probably more. I suspect that most hunters can adjust.

The only advantage to the K safety I can see that if the gunbearer is toting it, there is less liklihood of getting shot in the back.

Let's see, we have the left selector safety on aAR type rifles, a front trigger safety on M-14 style rifles, the over the top mauser type, the behind the back winchester type, the tang safety, the button safety on the front of the trigger guard....

They have one thing in common - they are all safeties that require little effort to switch.

I never said that one could not adjust to a cocking tang - as a matter of fact I said that a lot of guys adjust with no problem. But it does require some adjustment, and more effort.

If you aren't used to it, it can cause you to hesitate.

As to your last point I cannot relate one way or the other, having never used a gunbearer. And doubt I ever will, Will. Getting a rifle from a gunbearer (if he was still there)could take just a bit more time than using a combi cock! I said "could", having never engaged the services of a human scabbard.....

I'll take a stab at this one. We all own multiple rifles: Bolts, levers, singles, etc. We never seem to forget which is which. I've never tried to lever a round from a bolt action.
But having said that my only double rifle is a Krieghoff. I've practiced with it a lot. I've now hunted with it a lot. The cocking decocking mechanism has never seemed a hinderance. Any time an animal came into view it was second nature to push the lever forward and it was done. On an animal that needed more than two rounds you open the gun insert two rounds and ready immediately to go again.
I haven't had the opportunity yet but when I do I'm sure I'd bet my life on it.

I hate to even step into this again...

My current hunting rifles are my Classic, Hubertus and an R93 Blaser. Never got along well with left or right handed traditional bolt rifles. I found what works for me and practice with them.

My hunting & clay target game shotguns are all doubles. One even has the MacNaughton swing type safety. I found what works for me and practice with them.

My issued handgun is a Glock. Prefer a Colt 1911, but I'm stuck with it. Works for my department and we practice with them.

The shotgun in my take home squad truck is an 11-87.

My issued and carried rifle is a M-14 (Mil Surp).

I'm a lefty.

You can adapt and make different things instinctive and second nature.

But what do I know, I'm an equal opportunity shooter, not a purist.

Practice, adjustment, and comfort with the system is more important than tradition or innovation. The more trigger time you get, the better you will be in the field.

I'm out.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
BTW, I believe, strongly, that for DG hunting your rifle should be loaded from the time you leave the truck till the time you get back to the truck. No matter what type of DG rifle you carry.

JPK

Agreed! As old Rooster Cogburn said
"An UNLOADED, and COCKED GUN AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN!"

Hey, old man, if you are going to quote Rooster get it accurate.

"A gun that is unloaded and cocked ain't good for nuthin."

Since I have been hunting with Blaser R 93 bolt rifles, a Blaser K 95, and this last weekend with my Blaser D99 Duo, that like the Blaser S2 double must be re-cocked after opening, I feel it is just a matter of becoming totally familar with your rifle system.

I have not had any problems with it.
And this weekend I did some pretty fast and fancy handling with my D99.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Hey, old man, if you are going to quote Rooster get it accurate.

"A gun that is unloaded and cocked ain't good for nuthin."

Thats what OLD TIMERS DESEASE will do for you!Memory is the second thing that fails.

Gumboot458,
I have not shot the Blaser sxs but have shot and handled a Kriegoff enough to develop a liking for the cocking system. I think it does make it safe to carry through rough country and all the other scenarios that were talked about. The reason I like it is there is no way for it to slip off safety or fail. All the other safeties are just devices that block the firing Acton. You still have the stored energy in the springs and if something goes wrong it will still fire. When you don’t have spring pressure that can’t happen.
Weather it is faster or slower than using a traditional safety I can’t see any difference. I would think a intelligent person who thought they may be in harms way would take the safety off before the “charge†and not wait till the last second. That being said I think a person who has taken the time to practice with this system will have no problem. I think it becomes a natural habit to push the cocking device forward like you were taking the safety off when you are bringing a shotgun to your shoulder.
Bill

The decocker is easy to use and is no impediment to anyone with normal intelligence and dexterity.

I hope no arguements start here on my account.. The corrosion resistance of the different rifles is a MAJOR factor and is the biggest reason I would lean toward a Searcy... If only he would use stainless steel barrels ... I have handled a 470 n that he had built up on a Ruger Red Label.. which had stainless or plated barrels... It was very apealing but bad timeing for me....... I suppose with the use of products like Corrossian Block the rust could be kept at bay .......But my rifles travel by skiff over saltwater predominatly.............I have seen a Sullivan video where a client shooting one of his doubles only shoots once because he kept squeezing the front trigger............. Mike LaGrange stated in Ballistics in Perspectivethat he has searched for the bolt at times when shooting a double at game.........Haveing grown up with lever guns .I have not been able to adjust to the different safeties they put on them now.........When handleing them now eventho I only had 1 in 25 years and that for less than a month . Cocking and uncocking them is 2nd nature and the cross bolt safty was a big factor in me getting rid of the rifle..........I have had strange things happen when everything got going too fast with bears .. But was fortunate to have just enough time to deal with it................Has any one weighed the triggers on doubles .. As I know enough not to snap them ,....I have never pulled the trigger on a double rifle that I have handled... What do the Kriegoff wiegh and are the right and left simular?? And finally { I know I,m asking a lot } has any one shot all 3 large bore Kriegoffs 416 . 470 .,. 500...., How much difference is there in recoil..... THANK EVERY ONE!!!!!! gumboot out.

The guy at K. told me that they like to adjust the front trigger to about 3 lbs. and the rear to 4 lbs., presumably to prevent the near doubling if the finger accidentally slips to the back trigger.

Though I did that once on the Heym that I had, I doubt a 1 lb. differential will make any difference.

The double rifle scene seems to be filled with mumbo jumbo, old wives-tales, and hooey!

Anyone who has difficulty working the decocker on a Krieghoff is too frail to be hunting dangerous game, or be shooting a dangerous game rifle. It ain't that hard. Personally I like the decocker for safety purposes. I don't trust safeties.

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
Anyone who has difficulty working the decocker on a Krieghoff is too frail to be hunting dangerous game, or be shooting a dangerous game rifle. It ain't that hard. Personally I like the decocker for safety purposes. I don't trust safeties.

Terry, I don't think anyone here is saying a hunter may be too weak to opperate the combi-cocker. I think the objection to it, is that it can be problematic when under stress of a close encounter! Since most dangerous game doubles are,or should be, equipt with manual safeties instead of auto safeties,and never pushes the safety to fire till the rifle is on it's way to the shoulder. This must be un-learned with a rifle like the Krieghoff, because it requires more pressure to cock the rifle than it does to simply slip a safety to the fire position! This must be done before the rifle is too far on it's way up with the Krieghoff. If for some unknown reason, like nerves, the combi-cocker is moved to the rear position,durring a charge, as the rifle is broken open, to re-load the rifle will not re-cock it's self. This to a guy used to a conventional double rifle will simply slam the rifle to his shoulder, and pull the trigger, with no results. The time it takes to remember why the rifle didn't fire may be all the time he had! If this is the shooter's first double rifle, then he will come out of the gate fresh, and learn his rifle so it becomes natural to him, and doesn't have to UN-LEARN a traditional system, like most of us here would.

This is not as much of a problem with the Krieghoff, for an old time user of conventional doubles, as it is with the BLASER. The Blaser has an AUTO-DECOCKER that cannot be disconected. What this means is, the rifle automaticlly decocks it's self when the rifle is broken open, no matter what position the de-cocker switch is in, and must be RE-COCKED before it will fire. This is a system that, IMO, will get someone killed, if it hasn't already!

With a conventional DGR double rifle with a tang safety, if properly set-up has a manual safety, and double triggers! What this means is, if one or both barrels are fired on a Buff, and the rifle is broken open to reload one or both barrels, the rifle is simply slammed shut, and fired! This is known as the K.I.S.S. system! (Keep It Simple Stupid), and is the whole theory of useing a double rifle for dangerous game in the first place! You have two shots, if that doesn't do it, you break the rifle, re-load, and fire two more. Any extra movements needed to get off that third, and fourth shot, is a henderance. The Krieghoff is far better than the Blaser in that respect, but less so than a simple conventional system.

The convintional S/S double rifle, properly set up for dangerous game use,will have two triggers, and a manual safety, and is accentually two single shot rifles on the same stock.

If it is equipt with a single trigger, and that trigger breaks in any way, you are left with a steel, and wood club to fight with, because the whole rifle is out of service. Admittedly, a fine single trigger seldom breaks, but if it does both sides are OTS! With two triggers, at least you still have a single shot!

The AUTO-SAFETY, was responsible for the death of at least one client hunter a few years ago. This guy fired on a Buff the was in the thick, and only got one shot, before the buff moved behind jesse, where he couldn't be seen. The client broke the rifle to reload the barrel he had just fired, and while the rifle was open the buff charged out of the thorn at close range. The client slammed the rifle shut, and and pointed the rifle at the reppidly closeing Buff. The Bull hit him square in the midrift, killing him, before the PH could hit the Buff with his shot, killing the Buff. When the dust cleared, they checked to see why the clint hunter had not fired on the Bull. The front trigger was snapped off, and the auto-safety was still on. The client had forgotten to hit the safety button, in the dire sittuation he found himself, and he had pulled the trigger so hard it broke off. If he had had a manual safety, he would have fired that barrel, and then the other without haveing to think about anything other than placeing the bullet in the bull's brain, because the rifle would have fired.

All in all, I think a guy new to doubles buying a Krieghoff will be fine, because he will learn his system right out of the gate, but that Blaser is a trap waithing the be sprung! I also believe the objection most of us have for the COMBI-COCKER is it is just one more thing to have to worry about in a tight spot. There are other objections to the rifle, but that is the top one, IMO! It is simply a hammer rifle without exposed hammers, and can have both barrels cocked at the same time, nothing more!

What ever the case, I see no reason for anger in discussing this! It's a free world, in some countries, and one is allowed to shoot waht ever he wants, within reason!

Mac,

By chance will you be at the DSC on Friday?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Mac,

By chance will you be at the DSC on Friday?

Most likely, unless I have to go under the knife again!

Thank you Mac, Will and Terry., Mac what other things did you not care for on the K ??

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Thank you Mac, Will and Terry., Mac what other things did you not care for on the K ??

Gumboot458, the other things are strictly personal, and mostly cosmetic in nature.

The rifles do not fit me well, and point like a railroad tie for me! I don't like the palmswale,in the pistolgrip,and the rifle is too light for caliber. I simply can't stand the nickel plated action body.

Of course, all these things can be remedied with a little wood rasp, and re-checkering, but the plateing on the action looks like chrome to me but I'm told it is nickel. If so, it could be removed, but I have no idea what the steel onder it would look like, and I'm sure would not take blueing, or case color, after stripping.

I believe they are good rifles, and if they are anything like their shotguns, they will last a life time. PWN375 has a 500/416NE Krieghoff, and he loves it. I've shot it, and handled it quite a bit, and as I said, it simply doesn't fit me! Some people are turned off by the fact that it doesn't look BRITISH, but that part doesn't bother me at all. I have before, and still own several German doubles, and I've never owned one that wasn't very well made, but most do not look BRITISH. The Merkels are the exception. I have two Merkels double rifles, and they are about as close to the British look, and feel as anything comeing out of another country, though mine are field grade! My Merkels are a 140.2 Safari 470NE, and a 140E.1, 9.3X74R, and they feel much better to me, however, they fit me better, so that may be the reason!

You are going to make us K. owners develop a complex or something.