Having followed this page for years why don't Brit gunmakers, hunters, or sellers post more on doubles? We love and admire them but rarely is there a word from Brits. There are many more from Africa or Australia or other colonies ( like Canada!).

Damn good question LR3. Very few Brits comment on both African hunting and double rifles. I sell very few of my double books to the UK and get very few communications from the UK. Odd, in that the Brits invented big game hunting and fine gun craftsmanship. I hope you get an answer as I am curious, too.
Cal

Gee Cal, I think a lot of Europeans would disagree with that statement

I too wonder why we don't hear from them. Maybe we are not seen as a target audience?

The stiff upper lip does not allow for fraternizing with the peasants on AR

I did once read a very good article from a Brit who got a 404 made up for an African safari. Was quite an involved process hindered by the British gun laws. Perhaps they are quite insular in their large calibre gun ownership and use that the forums such as AR etc are not something they feel they could contribute to. Of course some do.

I don't think that there are many African hunters or big game hunters in England.As for the colonies-I don't think there are any of those around too.I can't think of any place else than Canada,and the USA where people have been exposed to big game hunting growing up.I am sure there are exceptions.

George, there are many exceptions here in Australia, but I think you are right. I think we have a lower percentage of hunters in our population than the USA, Canada or NZ. I haven't measured that, but it seems that way to me.

I would think shotguns to be very popular in England but among people who have been exposed to country/outdoors living.Here in Canada, 40 yrs ago if you lived in a city you were still living in the country and if you were living in the country you were really living in the bush. That is no joke.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can't think of any place else than Canada,and the USA where people have been exposed to big game hunting growing up.

You are actually suggesting that Canada and USA are the only places where people are being exposed to big game hunting when growing up???

In my country (Norway) roughly 10 % are registered as hunters. Of course many of these are not very active, and some are only hunting small game. Still a very large fraction participates in big game hunting, making big game hunting a very common thing to do. How do these numbers compare with USA or Canada? Others places in Europe also has long traditions in big game hunting – and also with double rifles.

Regarding the brits, my impression is that hunting in general is seen as a rich man’s sport, and those guys do not involve themselves in such thing as AR. It is also my impression that reloading rifle ammunition is not a very common thing to do. It would be interesting to know how many double rifles the remaining British gunmakers are selling to brits… my guess would be just a minor fraction.

quote:

Originally posted by BrownMax:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can't think of any place else than Canada,and the USA where people have been exposed to big game hunting growing up.

You are actually suggesting that Canada and USA are the only places where people are being exposed to big game hunting when growing up???

In my country (Norway) roughly 10 % are registered as hunters. Of course many of these are not very active, and some are only hunting small game. Still a very large fraction participates in big game hunting, making big game hunting a very common thing to do. How do these numbers compare with USA or Canada? Others places in Europe also has long traditions in big game hunting – and also with double rifles.

Regarding the brits, my impression is that hunting in general is seen as a rich man’s sport, and those guys do not involve themselves in such thing as AR. It is also my impression that reloading rifle ammunition is not a very common thing to do. It would be interesting to know how many double rifles the remaining British gunmakers are selling to brits… my guess would be just a minor fraction.

Germany is the 5th nation I have lived in. Kids grow up around hunting every place I have ever been. The only places I know of that kids don't grow up around hunting are places like Malta, the Caribbean Nations and Singapore that have little or no hunting.

Some people hear the hunting horn at a young age, some don't hear it until they are older, and some stop hearing it for different reasons.

British double rifles are expensive, most in the same league as a new crew cab 4x4 Ford F350 or Toyota Landcruiser FJ79.

Not everyone can afford an item that cost $20,000-200,000 that doesn't contribute to the family well being beyond being an object.

As a single man I owned double rifles, as a married man with young children (even though my income is quite a bit more than what it was as a single First Class Petty Officer in the United States Navy) it is hard to buy into owning something that expensive when I have other family financial priorities.

Some will joke about my balls being in the wife's purse. Either way, the reality of it is that some day I'll own guns like that again when my kids are grown. I guess I will, maybe it won't be a priority.

Maybe the current crop of British hunters feel the same.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
Having followed this page for years why don't Brit gunmakers, hunters, or sellers post more on doubles? We love and admire them but rarely is there a word from Brits. There are many more from Africa or Australia or other colonies ( like Canada!).

These people living here doesn´t post on forums


These people living here can not afford a double


These people here doesn´t hunt


Maybe there is the answer afterall..

Jens, you may be on to something!

The pix are telling.

The bottom picture is one reason why the Brits who own firearms, and/or hunt big game, or even small game, why they don’t post on hunting and firearm websites!

I have had private E-mails from many Brits who simply do not post publically, because of the crap they have to put up with the people who are in that last picture!
However all three of the pictures tell the tale for sure!
....................................................................

While we don't have many posting, there are a few. Maybe we'll get one of them to give a better founded opinion.

Excuse me, but can a Brit get a word in here?

There are quite a few Brits around who do have, treasure and reload for double rifles. I know of two who go to Africa on safari with doubles, for instance. However rifle shooting is rarer than in our former Colonies, I suspect.

I am not originally a country person, and began my shooting with my father's pistols and then .22 rifles with school cadets. After a ten year break playing with cars I got back into pistols. Then in 1996 they were banned, so I switched to rifles, found Rook rifles and then Double rifles. However in Britain to get a Firearms Certificate from the Police one has to show a 'need' for it. This is usually either Target shooting (eg at Bisley) or game / vermin shooting.

As we are a small island the more obvious route is Shotgun shooting, either clays or game shooting for driven pheasants, which can get very expensive - close to $1000 per day. So there are not really opportunities to get to use Double rifles. So many have gone over to the States that there are few left here. I have been looking for a .303 double for four years without success.

Quite a few collect the 'obsolete' calibres for which ammunition is not available, but then of course they should not be fired, but merely kept "as a curio or ornament" as the official wording puts it. Thus you won't hear from those guys!

Interesting topic though. I can see both sides of it as I was born in Virginia.......

I had taken the picture below (bottom) for my annual wildlife management report (predator control). Hadn't planned on sharing it, but after seeing the first picture in a previous post, I couldn't resist (although the fox is the lesser post-colonial gray fox and the double is the working man's German model).

quote:

The stiff upper lip does not allow for fraternizing with the peasants on AR Big Grin

Eagle, I would not be surprised if there is some truth to this. On the Internet one can inadvertently hob-knob with cads, bounders and assorted riff raff and not realize it.
Bad form!

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:
I had taken the picture below (bottom) for my annual wildlife management report (predator control). Hadn't planned on sharing it, but after seeing the first picture in a previous post, I couldn't resist (although the fox is the lesser post-colonial gray fox and the double is the working man's German model).

That is a nice fox and would make a fine full body mount! The Gray, silver fox and Kit foxes ARE the only foxes that are native to North America, the red fox was imported from England!

I on the other hand looked for British forums awhile back...couldn't find any and wasn't sure about their gun laws either. Thought maybe there would be a wealth of information that way...didn't happen.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
These people here doesn´t hunt


Maybe there is the answer afterall..

That's Brian May from Queen in the foreground of that picture, I always thought their song "Another one bites the dust" was about hunting!!! How wrong I was, damn.

Great question.

I used to buy gun magazines from the mid 70s. British magazines stopped covering DG & African hunting many years ago. Most British magazines cover bird shooting and air rifle hunting of rabbits and birds like crows, pigeons, starlings etc.

British magazines used to advertise classic big bore double rifles in the 80s. Those ads are gone. So rare to see ads in British magazines for big bore DG rifles.

Even with shotguns - Webley & Scott shut down decades ago. Now most magazines write about O/U shotguns.

We see some discussions about red stag, fallow, muntjack & Chinese water deer.

Holts seem to be the exception in selling DG rifles. Even they seem to be offering fewer and fewer of the classic British rifles.

Discussing the issue of bigbore rifles a guy at another forum tolled me that using a .577bpe double for funshooting or deerhunt in England would be out-of-the-question to get permit for. Most brits basically has to justify their need for each purchase in front of a policeman as far as where and when to shots will be fired(more & less). Most British hunters can get a .308/.30-06 but when applying for a .375H&H or larger things become complicated.

Message for Steve Traxson:

If you have any questions about British law then ask me. I may well know, or will certainly know someone who does.

HistoricBore

It's very simple to answer the OPs question. Very few Brits have double rifles because of our tight firearms licencing laws. On my shotgun certificate I can possess as many double and 3 shot semi or pump action shotguns as I like provided the have smooth bores and 24" barrels. Many British shooters use fine shotguns built by British makers, many being family heirlooms handed down through generations.

But it's very different for rifles. To have a rifle, which is held on a Firearm certificate, I have to show good reason for each and every rifle. So basically it's a 22rf, a small centrefire .222 up to c243, and a larger 7mm or 308 for our larger deer. If you want a bigger rifle for use on big game, you will need to show a booking for a safari or for wild boar and you probably will not be allowed to hold ammo in the U.K. For it. If you want to zero it, you really need to find a gunmaker or a dealer with a range and test it under their supervision. They will then hold ammo for you and deliver this to you at the airport (for a fee!)

You can after a few trips overseas, get a licencing officer to allow you to use a 9.3x62 or 375h&h on deer, but for anything larger forget it. Most big doubles don't meet min velocity requirements either - we have a min of 2450fps to be legal.

I have a 16 over 7x65r by Hambrusch - these is seen as unusual. It took a lot of persuasion to allow me to get an Einstecklauf in 7x65r to turn it into a double for use on boar overseas. But the licencing officer really could understand why I wanted such, and frankly it would have been easier just to get a bolt action 30-06 - but they won't allow me to have both.

So fundamentally in the U.K. We don't have much need for a double, very little need for a big double and trying to get them licensed is just a hastle.

I suppose one would have expected that in Scotland with stag hunting doubles would have held there ground but maybe it's the more longer shots and legal restrictions apart from costs that have taken a toll.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
So fundamentally in the U.K. We don't have much need for a double, very little need for a big double and trying to get them licensed is just a hastle.

........................................................................
I feel your pain! Need has nothing to do with the freedom of a LAW ABIDING citizen to own a firearm, in this former colony! (USA)

...................................................................

And last year I went over to Germany expecting to look at of double and combination guns. Nope - they liked my combination gun, in the same way as the might like a classic car. But they were all using Blaser 93s and R8s. On egun and in the gunshops are lots of nice old drillings etc not going for much money at all.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
I suppose one would have expected that in Scotland with stag hunting doubles would have held there ground but maybe it's the more longer shots and legal restrictions apart from costs that have taken a toll.

Don't worry - I use the 7x65r to take plenty of deer including a Roe buck last year at 160yds. Happily take Red at that range as well.

quote:

Message for Steve Traxson:

If you have any questions about British law then ask me. I may well know, or will certainly know someone who does.

Thanks HistoricBore...I'll keep that in mind. I was really looking for history and serial numbers, proof marks and hoping to find a forum so I could hang out and learn a little more from that side of the pond.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:

So fundamentally in the U.K. We don't have much need for a double, very little need for a big double and trying to get them licensed is just a hastle.

So fundamentally your firearms laws are f...cked.

I find it hard to comprehend how a nation that has produced some of the finest hunters, the finest firearms and some of the most innovative and successful war machines in the world have managed to so completely f..ck up their rights for ownership of firearms and to free hunt in their own country. I do pity you.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:

So fundamentally in the U.K. We don't have much need for a double, very little need for a big double and trying to get them licensed is just a hastle.

So fundamentally your firearms laws are f...cked.

I find it hard to comprehend how a nation that has produced some of the finest hunters, the finest firearms and some of the most innovative and successful war machines in the world have managed to so completely f..ck up their rights for ownership of firearms and to free hunt in their own country. I do pity you.

It's not just our firearms law that's b....d

We seem to have a single ability to take a perfectly reasonable piece of legislation and then hand to people with clipboard and no clue to then enforce it. My firearms enquiry officer was of the opinion that double rifles are illegal as you have two shots available before reloading and thus should be classed as a self loading rifle. Personally I have no issue with firearms being tightly controlled and only licenced to those who can demonstrate good need and responsibility for their use. But not the current system.

And no it has nothing to do with Europe or the EU. It is our civil servants that interpret the law.

But rather rifle shooting is becoming more popular and we are now getting a good number of purpose built civilian ranges. I now have two indoor full bore ranges within an hours drive, but that's only in last year or so.

quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:

quote:

Message for Steve Traxson:

If you have any questions about British law then ask me. I may well know, or will certainly know someone who does.

Thanks HistoricBore...I'll keep that in mind. I was really looking for history and serial numbers, proof marks and hoping to find a forum so I could hang out and learn a little more from that side of the pond.

There is a very knowledgeable bunch of people on the Doublegunshop.com, also on Nitroexpress.com. For British shooting www.thestalkingdirectory.com has lots of debate on all matters to do with deer stalking.

And well worth following https://www.theexplora.com

I don't know of Doublegunshop.com, but can vouch for the others as being well worth a look.
In the meantime I will continue to use my Midland hammer double in .32-20 for Rooks and charging rabbits!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:

So fundamentally in the U.K. We don't have much need for a double, very little need for a big double and trying to get them licensed is just a hastle.

So fundamentally your firearms laws are f...cked.

I find it hard to comprehend how a nation that has produced some of the finest hunters, the finest firearms and some of the most innovative and successful war machines in the world have managed to so completely f..ck up their rights for ownership of firearms and to free hunt in their own country. I do pity you.

Easy, one word DEMOCRATS or in their parlance, LABOR Party.. It's that simple.

I'm a Brit and I hunt DG with a double, I tend to alternate years from DG to mountain hunts. I tend not to post a lot but I do use forums for research and references however I have also noticed that a lot of my fellow countrymen don't hunt abroad despite Britain being a wealthy country.

The strange thing is that the same people will think nothing of spending £100k+ a season on game shooting, I think it is a cultural thing as a lot of socialising and business takes place on game shoots and DG hunting is not a fashionable. Pheasant shooting has seen something of a renaissance and is becoming increasingly popular many shoots now charge £48 per bird.

England in many aspects hasn´t really moved on since the days on Victoria. There is still an invisible status ladder in the British society that determines what you is allowed to when and why. I`ll bet is Prince Charles, his sons, friends or any royalty wanted to hunt/shoot a newly aquired Holland & Holland .600Nitro in one of their parks, no constable would ever come a say: "You cawn´t do that your Highness. I will report you". There is still an acceptance in England that some people can do what they want to do because they were born into a status. It is part of the British self perception of being British. Those who rebelled against this fled the isles several 100s years ago and eventually fought back. That gen pool of those who fought back is still found in the US.

The class system in the UK is dead, money is the new king. A lot of the gentry can't afford to shoot on the top shoots it's generally businessmen, interestingly this year I have shot with Americans on just about everyday which is a nice change, I wonder if the trend will continue.

I think there is a misconception on UK firearms law, you can have any double rifle you want providing that you can prove you have a reasonable reason to do so i.e. I want to hunt abroad and practice at my local club is no problem, I can use my double for hunting deer etc anywhere where I have permission.

I think that I should also point out whilst game hunting can be expensive a lot of it is very affordable or free. I often pursue pheasants and woodcock with my pointer and I don't pay a penny the other end of the scale is shooting a pair of shotguns on the grouse (I still tell my wife that it costs the same as a day with the pointer)

DG in the UK (.375)

There is a very knowledgeable bunch of people on the Doublegunshop.com, also on Nitroexpress.com. For British shooting www.thestalkingdirectory.com has lots of debate on all matters to do with deer stalking.

And well worth following https://www.theexplora.com

Thank you, a member of one and visit double guns and ExPlora alot...will look at the other. Interesting post here!

Great photograph! Did that rabbit charge, or was one barrel sufficient?

Most of my shooting takes place at Bisley, in Surrey. One of the clubs based there is the British Sporting Rifle Club, who welcome double rifles and run events for them, including against the Australians every so often.

My pheasant shooting is in a village syndicate, with unpaid beaters and pickers-up with dogs. Our usual bag for a day is 20, but it is very sociable and healthy exercise, better than golf!