After monitoring 470 load data on this forum for quite a while I am about to begin loading for my 470. I believe I have enough brass to begin my testing.
It would appear that most folks use a foam plug (which I have acquired) to help fill the void space in the cartridge when using RL 15.
My question is if I use a North Fork 500 mono metal bullets which are longer than steel / lead cup in core thus taking up more case capacity if it would be possible to negate the foam plug?

EZ

I still used foam under my North Forks in my 470 with RL 15

Calculate the distance between the top of the powder charge and the bottom of the seated bullet.

Cut 1/2" dia. "backer rod" 1/16"-1/8" longer than the above void and place above the powder charge.

One more thing.

Is your gun a double?

I would never use monolithic solids in my doubles!!!

Don

The gun is a Heym 88 and this is the only monometal I am considering since it has driving bands designed to be used in a double. In fact due the the large frontal flat metplate, I would probably not use it in a bolt gun.
Most on this forum believe it to be a prime projectile for a double.

EZ

Gotcha.

Let us know how they work.

I always used Woodleigh solids in my Heym's.

Don,

I will try the Northforks on your old/my new heym as well.

The Woodies print great, but on ele skulls another story. They perform like Norman at the Masters-can't hit strait when it counts. I just do not want to blow it at the last minute.

Will keep you posted.

quote:

I would never use monolithic solids in my doubles!!!

It just depends on your double.

The Heym .470 that I had had a small bore (land) diameter and cut quite deep grooves in a Woodleigh or other jacketed solid.

One needs to measure their bore diameter and just make sure the shank diameter of the NF is no larger.

Everything is peachy keen with my Krieghoff.

Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

Because he wants to try Reloder 15.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

Because he wants to try Reloder 15.

There's a plethora of reasons for not using RL-15 and a filler.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

Because he wants to try Reloder 15.

There's a plethora of reasons for not using RL-15 and a filler.

Perhaps but again, that's not the question he asked and he didn't ask what load regulated in your gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

Because he wants to try Reloder 15.

There's a plethora of reasons for not using RL-15 and a filler.

Perhaps but again, that's not the question he asked and he didn't ask what load regulated in your gun.

He said he is just starting to load for his rifle to which I would say start with 102 grains of IMR-4831 and work up to 106 or 107 grains until the rifle regulates and don't screw with RL-15 and fillers. There are sound reasons why double rifle builders like Butch Searcy and others use and recommend IMR-4831 over RL-15 and a plug. There is no advantage to using RL-15 if your gun will shoot a powder like IMR-4831 that has better load density. Federal gets away with it because they have the super-hot 216 primer which eliminates the need to use a filler. Unless you have something more substantive to offer than just smartass remarks why not just check out of this discussion?

Cane Rat


I agree.

I have never understood why everyone wants to go for RL15 instead of at least trying 4831 and not have to worry about fillers, type of fillers, fillers moving etc etc.

Much easier to just fill the damn case and be done with it IMHO.

I shoot my 470 Chapuis today with dgx and 88 gr of rl15 and 106 gr of h4331. The h 4831 load has a lot more felt recoil (way more than you would expect with just 18 grs of powder)

I like the RL 15. Less powder, less recoil, meters better than 4831.

I am trying the 4831SC in my 450-400 and hopefully it meters better.

EZ

if memory serves me correct there is only about .085 difference in length between the Woodleigh and North Fork. I use a 1" tall by .500 diameter foam wad for both bullets when using Reloder 15.

It seems as some of the post about bullet testing has made some people interested in the North Forks.

Let us know how they regulate.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
EZ

if memory serves me correct there is only about .085 difference in length between the Woodleigh and North Fork. I use a 1" tall by .500 diameter foam wad for both bullets when using Reloder 15.

It seems as some of the post about bullet testing has made some people interested in the North Forks.

Let us know how they regulate.

In my Searcy 470 that is regulated for 106 gr of IMR-4831 I use 110 gr of H-4831, regular cut to fill the case as much as possible instead of SC=4831. Butch's load with Woodleighs hit about 1 1/2' apart at 50 yards for 2,080 fps. With the H-4831 load I get 2,140 fps and the bullets over lap at 50 yds. The NF solids with the same powder charges as above do exactly the same and I use them interchangeably.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I like the RL 15. Less powder, less recoil, meters better than 4831.

I am trying the 4831SC in my 450-400 and hopefully it meters better.

If you are loading for doubles and are simply throwing charges from a measure instead of weighing each charge you are a fool and if you are recoil sensitive you should not be shooting a .470 in the first place.

IMHO; If you can obtain the same performance; Accuracy, regulation and consistant velocity with a cartridge; Why not do it with less recoil? In this case less is better.
The only issue I have witnessed over these forums is the lack of consistancy of RL 15 from lot to lot.
I will most likely try the 4831 loads as well.
I have shot the Federal factory fodder (supposedly with RL 15 / woodleighs) chronoed about 2190 FPS 10' from the muzzle and the Hornady offering (supposedly 4831 / DGS and DGX) at about 2150 FPS 10' from the muzzle. Both hit the same point of impact out of my gun at 50. yards.
I probably will never shoot a elephant but I am interested in the cup point NF for Buffalo. I know a DGX or Woodleigh soft will work fine for this application.
Having fun tinkering!

EZ

quote:

In my Searcy 470 that is regulated for 106 gr of IMR-4831 I use 110 gr of H-4831, regular cut to fill the case as much as possible instead of SC=4831. Butch's load with Woodleighs hit about 1 1/2' apart at 50 yards for 2,080 fps. With the H-4831 load I get 2,140 fps and the bullets over lap at 50 yds. The NF solids with the same powder charges as above do exactly the same and I use them interchangeably.

465H&H,

I found I can run about a grain of RL15 higher with the NFs. They regulated the same as the Woodys at 50 yards with a little more velocity.

quote:

If you are loading for doubles and are simply throwing charges from a measure instead of weighing each charge you are a fool and if you are recoil sensitive you should not be shooting a .470 in the first place.

Cortes,

That is so weak it does not deserve a response.

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
I shoot my 470 Chapuis today with dgx and 88 gr of rl15 and 106 gr of h4331. The h 4831 load has a lot more felt recoil (way more than you would expect with just 18 grs of powder)

Bingo!

A lot less recoil.

I'll take the plug and not the abuse.

quote:

Bingo!

A lot less recoil.

Will I always knew you were a fellow recoil sensitive weenie

quote:

Originally posted by Cortes:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I like the RL 15. Less powder, less recoil, meters better than 4831.

I am trying the 4831SC in my 450-400 and hopefully it meters better.

If you are loading for doubles and are simply throwing charges from a measure instead of weighing each charge you are a fool and if you are recoil sensitive you should not be shooting a .470 in the first place.

Cortes,

Let me eesplain soometin to you.

This forum is a great source of information, passed along by for FREE by some very knowledgeable people. Guys who have forgotten about DR more than I will ever know.

So why don't you crawl back into which ever goat's backside you dribbled from?

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Why not use IMR-4831 and not fool with fillers? My VC Demas regulates perfectly with 107.5gr and a 500gr Woodleigh soft.

Because he wants to try Reloder 15.

There's a plethora of reasons for not using RL-15 and a filler.

Perhaps but again, that's not the question he asked and he didn't ask what load regulated in your gun.

He said he is just starting to load for his rifle to which I would say start with 102 grains of IMR-4831 and work up to 106 or 107 grains until the rifle regulates and don't screw with RL-15 and fillers. There are sound reasons why double rifle builders like Butch Searcy and others use and recommend IMR-4831 over RL-15 and a plug. There is no advantage to using RL-15 if your gun will shoot a powder like IMR-4831 that has better load density. Federal gets away with it because they have the super-hot 216 primer which eliminates the need to use a filler. Unless you have something more substantive to offer than just smartass remarks why not just check out of this discussion?

No, he said he is using Reloder 15 and wanted to know if he still needed a foam plug with a 500 grain North Fork mono metal bullet but thanks for telling us what you do, what gun you own, what Mr. Searcy thinks, and the theory behind Federal ammunition. I read you comments on the other thread. Perhaps now you would like to enlighten us again on the merits of the Krieghoff safety or maybe give us your recipe for biscuits and gravy.

eezridr, as other posters have pointed out, the advantage of Reloder 15 is recduced recoil. It really does make a difference. I can't answer your question about the foam plug because I have never used a North Fork bullet but Mike said he does shoot the North Forks and he still uses a foam wad. I am inclined to believe that is correct. I have the Barnes manual and the fastest powder they suggest with their 500 grain .474 bullets is IMR 4831 and I think that is to avoid the necessity of the foam wad. The 500 grain Barnes banded solid is only slightly longer than the Woodleigh solid because even though it is a homogenous bullet, it has a very blunt shape. I am assuming the North Forks will be longer than a conventional bullet as well but not by much. Their flat point solid also has a very, very blunt shape so I doubt that it will intrude very far into the case.

Back to answering the original question.

Use the foam plug (wad). No use in taking any chances. End of story.

BTW

I agree with Dave. Use RL15. Produces less recoil. I have 3ea. 5# containers on hand. Could be a lifetime supply.

Thanks guys! I will use my foam plugs with the RL 15 and NF 500's.

EZ

eezridr,

I know this is a much debated topic, but it's important to know. The driving band bullets like NF, S&H (I believe) and GS actually have less engraving force and less wear&tear on rifling and doubles then the steel jacketed bullets do. As measured, a standard cup-n-core sits around 2,700lbs to driving into the rifling, and that's pounds, not psi. Steel jacketed bullets are a bit higher, getting over 3000. The solid copper bullets like the Barnes-X would take over 4000, with the banded solids being much less but still unknown, and some of the VLD solids of CopperNickle construction like Lost River have seen as high as 8K. The GS and NF bullets have been tested substantially lower. The .458 line of GS bullets tested at 748-770lbs. (400-500 grains). This is why GS guarantees that the use of GS bullets will not delaminate a double. I cannot vouch for NF or S&H, but I do know they too have low engraving forces and are safe in DR's, from their respective manufacturers. Both are good bullets and do not deform, as I have learned. GS bullets will expand slightly at the meplat in response to velocity, but at 2200 or less, you will see very little to no expansion. In the case where you are looking for a cup point, go to a higher velocity and the FN's will expand nicely with 100% weight retention and perfectly straight penetration. I'll get you some pics if you would like.

Extremist:

Just a question. If the North Fork and GS Custom bullets do indeed shoot at lower pressures, wouldn't the lower pressures also translate into lower velocity as well?

Not being a ballistics guy the lower pressure that people refer to is probably a lower peak pressure, reduced peak pressure because the bullet gets going quicker because of its reduced resistance.

But this peak pressure may not have much to do with its final velocity as it exists the barrel, assuming the nearly as high pressure is maintained until the bullet exists.

Yeah, ya gotta have pressure to get the bullet up to speed.

I think I bullshitted my way through that pretty good!

Actually yes and no. If you do not chance the load (vs a conventional bullet), you will see very slight drop in velocity, maybe 10-20fps, but a substantial drop in peak chamber pressure. When you increase the powder slightly, say 2-3 grains in a 100 grain load, you see an increase in speed and maintain the same pressure or even a bit less. In my experience with the 375, where I have tested the most, and the 45-70, I noticed a gain from 100-300fps. The biggest gains I seen where with the lower pressures of the 45-70, and only about 100-150fps gain with the high pressure small bores. With the bigger bores like the 458WM and Lott, I only seen a 50-75 fps gain, but this only required about 1-2 grains more powder, and the pressures where lower. In the case of the 45-70 I actually went to a faster powder and it worked great! With the 470 and the likes, I think you can stick with the same load and regulation and benefit from the lighter pressure. My suggestion is simply to try it. I can say, to be safe, you would want to work up with any new bullet, but work up to the same load and see what the chrono shows.

Will, you are right. I have asked around and have heard from a loss of 10 to a gain of 75 with no difference in loading (keeping everything the same). So, it depends on the powder (slow burning with deterents that require more pressure to burn well to fast powders that will give more fps with no change).

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
eezridr, as other posters have pointed out, the advantage of Reloder 15 is recduced recoil.

Indeed. And you if you plan to actually use your rifle for its intended purpose, as opposed to shooting milk jugs at the range, you will come to understand the advantages of a slower powder with better load density once your rifle has spent 24 hours being jostled about on airplanes and another several days being bounced around in the back of a Cruiser thus causing some of the powder to migrate around the plug. Recoil will be the least of your problems.

For sale one 470 K-gun and 10 pounds of RL15 for use in the states.

I guess I will go back my Ruger No 1 for Zim this year as it seems to be less controversial.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
eezridr, as other posters have pointed out, the advantage of Reloder 15 is recduced recoil.

Indeed. And you if you plan to actually use your rifle for its intended purpose, as opposed to shooting milk jugs at the range, you will come to understand the advantages of a slower powder with better load density once your rifle has spent 24 hours being jostled about on airplanes and another several days being bounced around in the back of a Cruiser thus causing some of the powder to migrate around the plug. Recoil will be the least of your problems.

+ 1

Well said

quote:

being bounced around in the back of a Cruiser thus causing some of the powder to migrate around the plug.

Dang, I usually don't carry my ammo in the back of a Cruiser.

My guess would be that this sort of event is virtually impossible, not with the oversize plugs that I use, but if a few bits of powder by some miracle wound up around a plug, I don't think it would matter.

I ain't buying it. I would be glad, though, to be shown otherwise. But I do not know what I would do differently even if it has happened to someone else.

So the bottom line: I'm using plugs.

Will

I think Graeme Wright wrote something about this in his 1st or 2nd Edition
where the plug shrunk or came loose and powder went past it.

It can happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
eezridr, as other posters have pointed out, the advantage of Reloader 15 is reduced recoil.

Indeed. And you if you plan to actually use your rifle for its intended purpose, as opposed to shooting milk jugs at the range, you will come to understand the advantages of a slower powder with better load density once your rifle has spent 24 hours being jostled about on airplanes and another several days being bounced around in the back of a Cruiser thus causing some of the powder to migrate around the plug. Recoil will be the least of your problems.

Load density is the same if it is 100% powder or 80% powder and 20% stuffing. The case is still full and powder is held in place.

When I was playing with pufflon I took a Little glass jar and filed it 3/4 full of rl15 and toped it off with pufflon for 100% load density. Then I put it in a vibratory cleaner for a couple of hours. Thats two granular products with a real chance it could mix if it moved.

Nothing moved!!!! Your filler only needs to be stiff enough to hold the powder in place and have 100% fill. If the foam is stiff enough and large enough to fill the void your load can not move.

I do use my rifle for what they were intended.
If it kills the same, but kicks less allowing me to get that 2nd shot off a 1/2 second faster and be more accurate its a advantage I want even when shooting water jugs!

JD