Found a model 160 African series, #3, with octagon barrels in 500NE with octagon barrels for $14,000, mint condition. Has a gold elephant on bottom of receiver. Is this a reasonable price? Thanks.

Randy, welcome to AR. Yes, that's the African series....they originally sold for $19,995 as I remember. I had them in 500 NE and 470 NE.

Are the Merkels good reliable rifles?

Yes they are, and probably the most accurate of the commercial doubles out there. They are traditional in design, no funky safeties or other supposed "improvements". Good, solid, and accurate doubles.

Agree.

Good solid working doubles.

Randy,

Welcome. You have a PM from me.

Randy, I missed the model number on this one. A Merkel 160 is a sidelock. The special African editions I've seen were boxlock rifles, Model 140-2.2. If it is a sidelock, it's probably from the Merkel Emporium (Custom Shop) and would be worth well north of the $19,995 I mentioned.

Biebs is spot on. A 160 at that price is a super deal. You can call the guys at Merkel USA(205-655-8299) in Trussville, AL and ask them about pricing on that gun. I have been to their shop and drooled over the inventory. Really nice guys.

I held 140-2 African series #2 in 500 NE when it was there. It is a boxlock and was $20k. The sidelock 160 non collector series is around $10k more than a 140. And no I did not want to leave....I was in heaven.

Merkels work great! I have a 140 in .500NE, and it has accounted for fourteen buffalo, ten pigs and three wild dogs in less than two years.

I have a VC 500 for sale at $13500. You can see it on the HeymUSA site.

Sam, I was wondering whose that was.

My first double rifle was the Merkel 500NE that LionHunter now owns. Took several elephant with that gun. I always found it to be a solid rifle, very accurate, and hell for stout. Great entry level DR IMO.

I really like my Merkel 140-2 .500 NE.

I don't see up close so good anymore so I had Bailey Bradshaw build me an aperture sight for it.

The 160AE with ejectors are the new series the old serie (160A = extractors) only should be less expensive because, many sold them or want sell it and replace it against the new serie.

A standard 160AE cost EUR 10700 plus tax. Additionally came engraving and other extras. A used second hand 160A should not cost more then EUR 5000 even in super condition and what ever extra, because there is some pressure on the market especailly for non ejector guns.

With the Krieghoff Classic the same is the case, many want replace thier DR against the new ejector DR of the same brand

quote:

With the Krieghoff Classic the same is the case, many want replace thier DR against the new ejector DR of the same brand

Neophytes!!! Don't they know that the elephant/buffalo/hippo will hear the "ping" of the ejectors and zero in on the hunter's location with a deadly charge, killing him, the PH, and the trackers and thereby messing up the countryside?!!!
Peter.

Used my Merkel .500 last month to take a trophy elephant in Namibia. First DR owned. One shot. Satisfied.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

With the Krieghoff Classic the same is the case, many want replace thier DR against the new ejector DR of the same brand

Neophytes!!! Don't they know that the elephant/buffalo/hippo will hear the "ping" of the ejectors and zero in on the hunter's location with a deadly charge, killing him, the PH, and the trackers and thereby messing up the countryside?!!!
Peter.

I see these posts poking fun at the theory of the ejector "ping" alerting remaining animals in the herd quite often. The original concern was born out of the early 20th century ivory hunters attempting to take numerous animals out of the same herd before they ran off.

However, even in today's elephant hunting environment, there are good reasons for extractors over ejectors. I like ejectors at the range because they are slightly faster in reloading the weapon under speed conditions, as evidenced by my video that was posted a few months back. However, I HAVE been in situations, while actually hunting elephant, where I fired one shot, dropping the ele, only to have the remaining animals freeze in their tracks and attempt to find out what just happened, all the while becoming visibly agitated. This has happened to me while in very close quarters to the remaining animals and since the first shot dropped the cow successfully, I felt it important to reload that spent barrel. With the extractors on my old Merkel, I've been able to do so in complete silence, without alerting the remaining and very agitated animals. I can't do that with my VC as it has ejectors. Would the "ping" scare them off? If so, that's fine and there would be no problem. However, if it alerted them to our presence, and they took issue, as is very common when hunting cow herds, that is a different story altogether.

So yes, I'm now shooting an ejector gun, mainly due to resale value, although I don't anticipate ever selling it, but one never really knows. In all honesty, I still prefer the extractor guns for the reasons stated above and that a 1 to 1.5 second speed advantage in reloading during actual hunting conditions is less than compelling. IMO

With an ejector gun all you have to do to open it quietly is to hold your thumb over the fired case as you open the gun. I soft thump is all you hear. Then pull case out like an extractor gun. Another bad habit but it works. Forget the brass and reload!

The topic of ejector noise is a joke. I have shot multiple buffalo many times now, pinging those empties throughout.

To all who thinks or want think you do not need an ejector, as every one can see Krieghoff now offer their DR with that option too. Why, because a DR without does not really make sense and was only promoted caused by keeping the costs of the rifle low, to get it easyier to sell. But at the end of the day many not bought their rifles because that nesseary item not build in.

And the second hand guns without ejectors will fall as soon as a new model with ejectors came on the market. I waited until Merkel offered their AE models again because the A models are useless. Now is Krieghoff on their way and I could see last Saturday onw in 8x57IRS.

Heym only offers an extrator model new in their line to get the beginner price low down in the range. But that will not bring any success.

quote:

Originally posted by bunoushcu:
To all who thinks or want think you do not need an ejector, as every one can see Krieghoff now offer their DR with that option too. Why, because a DR without does not really make sense and was only promoted caused by keeping the costs of the rifle low, to get it easyier to sell. But at the end of the day many not bought their rifles because that nesseary item not build in.

And the second hand guns without ejectors will fall as soon as a new model with ejectors came on the market. I waited until Merkel offered their AE models again because the A models are useless. Now is Krieghoff on their way and I could see last Saturday onw in 8x57IRS.

Heym only offers an extrator model new in their line to get the beginner price low down in the range. But that will not bring any success.

No doubt that the market prefers ejector guns to extractors. However, IMO, that is largely misguided in that many believe the extractor guns are much slower than ejectors. When queried as to why, most have responded that the extractor gun requires one to pull the brass from the chamber in the same manner as a shotgun with extractors. This simply isn't so as rotating the rifle in the hands will quickly empty the gun. At the range, the difference in timing for shooting 4 rounds with double rifles, one with ejectors and one with extractors, amounts to about 2 seconds. In the field, it matters not at all in terms of timing. I still prefer the completely silent operation of extractors for hunting although both of my current doubles have ejectors.

To put a fine point on it, I'll offer the following three video clips. These have been posted previously but they are relevant to this discussion. The first two show the timing difference between ejectors and extractors. Watch the clock reference and you'll see about 2 seconds difference between the two. The third is an extractor gun in actual use on a tuskless elephant hunt. You'll notice there were no negative aspects to the rifle's operation in this hunt due to extractors instead of ejectors.

Companies such as Heym that charge upwards of $2,500 to $4,000 for ejectors are playing right into this misconception simply because guys are willing to pay the difference, regardless of the actual cost to include the feature on the rifle. I think VC has it right in that they charge $300 for the addition of ejectors, or rather, will give you a $300 discount for building the rifle with extractors. As always however this is JMO and YMMV.

Extractor Gun:


Ejector Gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

Actual Elephant Hunt with Extractor Gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...esixFc9hTGGQ&index=1

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
With an ejector gun all you have to do to open it quietly is to hold your thumb over the fired case as you open the gun. I soft thump is all you hear. Then pull case out like an extractor gun. Another bad habit but it works. Forget the brass and reload!

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
The topic of ejector noise is a joke. I have shot multiple buffalo many times now, pinging those empties throughout.

Sam, and BenKK I have both types of double rifles, and find them equal in actual operation, with no real disadvantage to the extractor rifle. The perfect double rifle in relation to extractor/ejector is the Heym with the selector switch in the forearm that allows the ejectors to be blocked leaving the rifle with extractor, or ejector. There are times when either is useful, like on the range working up loads, the extractor is better to avoid damaging or losing valuable brass. In competition ejectors are slightly faster but only enough that it has to be measured with a very accurate stop watch.

On the “PING” thing, BenKK is entitled to his opinion, but there was a real reason old elephant hunters chose the extractor rifles, and it wasn’t cost! The ivory hunters wanted to take as many elephant from a herd as they could. This was especially valuable when the elephant were congregated it thick jess. The elephant were not as bothered by the shot as they were forming around the downed elephant wondering what had just happened.

The POP of the shot did not worry them because in this type of terrain the elephants snapping limbs off trees makes the same sound a gun shot. However, the very metallic sounds of the “PING” and ejectors being re-set on closing did set them off and pinpointed the shooter. Today we don’t shoot multiple elephant so the rest running away after one is shot is far more likely when hunting bulls, and is a plus.

However when hunting tuskless cows if you are pinpointed in thick cover you could very well be in for a multiple charge, because cows tend to prepare to fend off anything that might endanger any calves in the cow herd so do not just take off like bulls usually do.

In the case of Cape buffalo this is not a negative factor! Any metallic sound my cause the buffalo to flee before you can get off a standing shot, but once shot, and not killed a buffalo doesn’t seem to be bothered in the least by metallic sounds, and depend on his eyes to find you, and the rest of the herd will be heading for distant climes.

In the final analysis the “CLICKS” and “PINGS” are still a valid concern when hunting tuskless cows in heavy cover where you must get very close and are unable to see the whole herd.

Of course it is simply up to the individual which way he wants his/her double rifle to be fitted, but if you are thinking about doing a lot of cow ele hunting I'd like extractors. As I've already said I have both and both work for me!

………………………………………………………………………………………………..................................... .

G'day MacD37, fair point, Sir! Cheers!

Let them ping over your shoulder and if it causes a charge just shoot more elephant!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Let them ping over your shoulder and if it causes a charge just shoot more elephant!

Got no real problem with that one either!!!

quote:

just shoot more elephant!

That could get VERY expensive in a real hurry!
Peter.

l know this is a Merkel thread. And dont want to go off topic. ls it all ejector rifles that make the "ping" or just the Merkels. And do you get the same ejector noise with the falling block rifles like the Bradshaws??

Every ejector rifle I've shot goes "ping".

quote:

Originally posted by bunoushcu:
To all who thinks or want think you do not need an ejector, as every one can see Krieghoff now offer their DR with that option too. Why, because a DR without does not really make sense and was only promoted caused by keeping the costs of the rifle low, to get it easyier to sell. But at the end of the day many not bought their rifles because that nesseary item not build in.

And the second hand guns without ejectors will fall as soon as a new model with ejectors came on the market. I waited until Merkel offered their AE models again because the A models are useless. Now is Krieghoff on their way and I could see last Saturday onw in 8x57IRS.

Heym only offers an extrator model new in their line to get the beginner price low down in the range. But that will not bring any success.

bunoushcu, You are simply wrong in most of your claims. First there is no A model from Merkel, and ejectors have been offered in Merkel double rifles for many, many years, in the models chambered for cartridges up to 9.3X74R. That rifle is a model 140E-1. Only the 140-2 and the 140-2.2 chambered for 375H&H, 416 Rigby, 470NE, and 500NE came with extractors, all others were offered with Ejectors as an option. I happen to own a 140E- 1 chambered for 9.3X74R with selective ejectors that I bought over 11 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

No doubt that the market prefers ejector guns to extractors. However, IMO, that is largely misguided in that many believe the extractor guns are much slower than ejectors. When queried as to why, most have responded that the extractor gun requires one to pull the brass from the chamber in the same manner as a shotgun with extractors. This simply isn't so as rotating the rifle in the hands will quickly empty the gun. At the range, the difference in timing for shooting 4 rounds with double rifles, one with ejectors and one with extractors, amounts to about 2 seconds. In the field, it matters not at all in terms of timing. I still prefer the completely silent operation of extractors for hunting although both of my current doubles have ejectors.

As Todd says there is little difference in the speed of effecting a re-load as far as speed goes. I doubt that the difference is even 2 seconds. Forgetting an auto safety and trying to fire shot three after a reload in an ejector rifle and having to stop and release the safety, and shoot will cost only 1 second, and a re-load in an extractor rifle fitted with a manual safety would take no longer. The key is your drill in dumping the empties, and how you carry your ammo for a quick re-load. Ejectors are nice if you have to have them, but to say a double rifle is “USELESS” because it is an extractor rifle is just plain WRONG!


.................................................................... .........

Todd's videos were very interesting. I still think that his reloads might be quicker if the two new rounds were on his RIGHT wrist (as opposed to his left waist) or on the stock. Still, an excellent demonstration.
Peter.

Peter, the reloads would be faster if I placed cartridge 3 & 4 on the right wrist. Mac and I have debated that often. However, in my hunting experiences, I've always carried the spare cartridges in my belt. As demonstrated in the ele video clip, in actual field use, carrying and reloading from the belt was no disadvantage in terms of getting shots 3 and 4 onto the target. Therefore, from my old military days, I fight like I train, or in reverse, I train like I fight, so to speak! From that, I've resisted the move to put two cartridges on a wrist band or into the back of my glove simply because it seems using the belt in the field is more than adequate in terms of getting the reload done.

I like the Merkels, they feel good and shoot good, at least the ones I have played with did..

I might buy a std. model in 500 as they sell used for a pretty good price, I have seen them for less than $6500 on ocassions, so that would be a steal IMO...

But if I was going to spend $14,000 for a double, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be an English rifle if for no other reason than resale down the road..I never owned a double rifle by a major English manufacturer that I didn't sell for double what I paid for it within one to five years..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I like the Merkels, they feel good and shoot good, at least the ones I have played with did..

I might buy a std. model in 500 as they sell used for a pretty good price, I have seen them for less than $6500 on ocassions, so that would be a steal IMO...

But if I was going to spend $14,000 for a double, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be an English rifle if for no other reason than resale down the road..I never owned a double rifle by a major English manufacturer that I didn't sell for double what I paid for it within one to five years..

If you can find "an English rifle" for 14K please let us know if you decide to pass on it..

Todd, your point is well taken. I was only referring to the speed issue. BTW it looks like your shots were better (more accurate) than the bolt rifle shots!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Todd, your point is well taken. I was only referring to the speed issue. BTW it looks like your shots were better (more accurate) than the bolt rifle shots!
Peter

Understood Peter. And I completely agree.

Todd, do you own an ejector gun? Seeing as you like to put things to the test, perhaps a video showing 4 rounds from an ejector gun vs. 4 from an extractor??? Then we can try a side by side with a Blaser magnum (see other forum) and a double!!!
Boy am I good at suggesting things for other people to do!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I like the Merkels, they feel good and shoot good, at least the ones I have played with did..

I might buy a std. model in 500 as they sell used for a pretty good price, I have seen them for less than $6500 on ocassions, so that would be a steal IMO...

But if I was going to spend $14,000 for a double, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be an English rifle if for no other reason than resale down the road..I never owned a double rifle by a major English manufacturer that I didn't sell for double what I paid for it within one to five years..

If you can find "an English rifle" for 14K please let us know if you decide to pass on it..

BUEHLER? BUEHLER?........

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Todd, do you own an ejector gun? Seeing as you like to put things to the test, perhaps a video showing 4 rounds from an ejector gun vs. 4 from an extractor??? Then we can try a side by side with a Blaser magnum (see other forum) and a double!!!
Boy am I good at suggesting things for other people to do!
Peter.

Peter, yes, I do own two ejector guns. The rifle you saw in the second video is an ejector gun. The rifle in the first is the extractor Merkel, which I no longer own. The best I can do is show those two videos together and you can watch the time code on each. The ejector gun was about 2 seconds faster. However, the time between filming the two clips is about 1 year. Lots of practice in that time. I think I'm a bit faster now in getting the cartridges from the belt and into the gun. I could probably close that 2 second gap a little but I don't own an extractor gun any longer.

About the Blaser ... I'm only interested in real rifles. Not odd experimental contraptions that are likely to blow up in the shooter's face!

quote:

I'm only interested in real rifles. Not odd experimental contraptions that are likely to blow up in the shooter's face! sofa

Todd, now that's the safe course to take...rely on the technology of a time when the only way to get more than one shot out of a rifle was to weld 2 of them together :-)

ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a true charge on an animal that has not slowed down I really do not think extractor or ejector matters. You get a chance at two aimed shots. If you need three shots you might get that off with a bolt. How you handle the first shot is the most important thing in the string of events to follow. Reloading of an empty rifle is not something you may have time to accomplish. This is especially true with elephants as the range you start the ordeal is normally quite close. On a serious charge you can only depend on whatever ammo is in the gun.