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| One of Us |
Would anyone give me the year for the into of the .450/400 3 1/4 400gr cordite load? Thanks | ||
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One of Us |
Sometime in the 1890's. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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google is our friend! Click Me! 1880 it says! Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
Uh,,, No that's the intro dates for the BPE parent cartridge family, not the cordite loadings. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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| One of Us |
If I remember correctly it was 1898. I'll have to check my notes. Around the same year as the 450 3 1/4. Dutch | |||
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The 3" version was introduced in 1902. The exact date for the 3 1/4" seems to be elusive (at least for me), however it was introduced prior to the 3" version. I always understood the 450NE (maybe incorrectly) was the the first NE round loaded with cordite. It was introduced in 1898. Does the 450-400 3 1/4" fall between 1898 and 1902? I have one built in 1905 or 1906, so they were definitely available then. | |||
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Thanks Guys. This tells me that a 450/400 dating from 1885 is probably a 2 3/8 BPE gun. Am I right? | |||
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| One of Us |
No, it could have been a 3 1/4" BPE round. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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| One of Us |
This round would have been based on the .450 BPE case? Circa 1877? Could be. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's correct. BUT many of that series used a thicker rim that the 450 3 1/4" BPE. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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My source says 1898 with a question mark after it. | |||
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From African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt: "The history of the .450/400 Nitro Express 3" Jeffery starts with the .450/400 Magnum Nitro Express 3 1/4" first listed in Kynoch's 1884 catalogue. That cartridge was the standard .450 NE 3 1/4" necked down to .409" calibre, but initially suffered from the fact that the original black powder case's walls were too thin to work reliably with the nitro loads which generated higher pressures." Mike | |||
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Who's that source? Your little brother?  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Uhh? I gave the source. Mike | |||
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LOL, That was for Biebs, The old man.. Wwe posted about the same time Mike. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Got it! I was scratching my head there for a minute. Mike | |||
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IS this 1884 date for the intro of the NE cartridge and not the BPE cartridge? Or are we still talking BP in 1884/1885? Bob | |||
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I read the quote to say that the 1884 date referred to the nitro express cartridge. Mike | |||
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Mike, I read it the same way, but do not think it is correct. The standard 450 NE 3 1/4" was not created until 1898 as per Taylor's book, so the 450-400 3 1/4" was not based on that cartidge. It was based on a neck down 450 BPE I believe which caused some early problems with cordite. Cordite was not available until around 1890. I still believe the first cordite loaded 450-400 3 1/4 were in the mid to late 1890s, especially since the 450 NE 3 1/4" is commonly regarded as the first Nitro Express smokeless cartridge. Ask Will, he was probably around back then. | |||
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He's actually quite knowledgable :-) | |||
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Fleming lists the 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro's introduction date as pre 1899 and 1902 for the 3" case. 1884 for the 450/400 3 1/4" BP load. 465H&H | |||
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When I look at the rifle next week, my guess is the flats will show proof for 110gr black powder. That will be end of my interest in the piece as I want a shooter, not a collector piece. Thanks for all your help. Cheers, Bob | |||
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Chances are that if it that old it won't show the load it was regulated for. And collector rifles still shoot good too! NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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One of Us |
While the original 450/400 3 1/4 was a BP cartridge, the 400 Jeffery, aka 450/400 3 inch Nitro Express, has always been a Nitro Express (Cordite) cartridge. Some of the earlier rifle were later reproofed with the 450/400 3 1/4 loaded with Cordite. If a rifle was proofed and/or reproofed by the Birmingham Proof House, It will be so marked on the flats! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Thanks Rusty. This gives me hope. My .404 has served me well, but if this rifle has been reproofed, one more buff hunt may be on the horizon  Would the nitro proof marks indicate what load it was proofed for? | |||
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| One of Us |
It should tell your bullet weight and what Cordite load it was proofed for. If the case length is stamped on the flats then the rifle was reproofed in 1925 or later. Pressure expressed in "tons" was added in 1954. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Was out building a green house for the wife when it occurred to me that a BPE might be reproofed for nitro for black, ie 40gr of cordite, or perhaps even for the 60gr load. What about the twist rate? The BPE rifle was designed around a 210-270gr lead bullet--twist, maybe 1 in 20 or even slower. Certainly not fast enough to stabilize the 400gr jacketed bullet of the NE load--what, about 1 in 12? Is my thinking correct? | |||
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The flats should tell you all! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Is my thinking correct on the twist rates? Will the BPE rifle have a much slower twist rate. Thanks again for all the assistance. bob | |||
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| One of Us |
Many old 450/400 3 1/4 rifles, after the advent of Cordite were reproofed. They most certainly did not re-barrel the rifles. Manufacturers would certainly not make a rifle that fired an unstable bullet. I personally do not know if there is a different twist rate for a BPE. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks Rusty | |||
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| One of Us |
This is a pretty good article about a 450-400 3 1/4" BPE rifle built in 1891. It is hammerless rifle. After 1925 the rifle received new nitro proofs. It was proofed for 60 grains of cordite which is the full Nitro loading for the round, not the Tropical loading of 55 grains. http://www.rbsiii.com/collecti...woodward_400NE_1.htm | |||
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Seeing the letter attached is what is drawing me to these Rifles. It's also the since of history and the mileage that they have seen over the last century. I Would love to know who the Honerable E.S Douglas Pennant was (besides the narrative). I don't know I guess it's my History Degree come screaming out of me. Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
Seeing a BPE gun actually reproofed for the 60gr cordite load gives me renewed hope.
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MtnBoy, Quite a few 450/400 BP rifles have been reproofed for the Nitro load over the years. It is my understanding that the three major concerns that need to be considered in such a conversion are, the strength of the action and barrels, the weight of the rifle as many of the original BP rifles were built much lighter than the later Nitro rifles and last but possibly the most important is that the rifles will probably have to be re-regulated for the Nitro load. 465H&H | |||
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465H&H, Thanks for the info. 9.5-10 pounds would be a proper weight for a .450/400 double? | |||
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| One of Us |
That'd be a good weight. My 450NE is 10#. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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| One of Us |
ya, but all of that weight of your rifle is on the last 5 inches of your barrels! Your 450 weighs a ton! Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. DRSS Chapuis 9.3x74R NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
The English doubles that I have seen have ranged from 9.5 to 10.5 or slightly more. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
And you were right. I looked at the rifle today. A .400 Express, reproofed sometime after 1924 to the nitro for black load, 40gr cordite with 270gr bullet. Cartridge length stamped on the flats. The bores/chambers are pristine,like a new rifle. Gun is very tight but quite lite, maybe 8.5-9lbs. Thanks again for all the assistance. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Intro date for .450/400 NE
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