Intro date for .450/400 NE

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07 February 2013, 23:53

MtnBoy

Intro date for .450/400 NE

Would anyone give me the year for the into of the .450/400 3 1/4 400gr cordite load? Thanks

08 February 2013, 00:02

Mike Brooks

Sometime in the 1890's.

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08 February 2013, 00:11

Alaskaman11

google is our friend! Click Me!

1880 it says!

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08 February 2013, 00:20

Mike Brooks

Uh,,, No that's the intro dates for the BPE parent cartridge family, not the cordite loadings.

08 February 2013, 02:11

Dutch44

If I remember correctly it was 1898. I'll have to check my notes. Around the same year as the 450 3 1/4.

Dutch

08 February 2013, 02:16

MikeBurke

quote:
Originally posted by MtnBoy:
Would anyone give me the year for the into of the .450/400 3 1/4 400gr cordite load? Thanks

The 3" version was introduced in 1902. The exact date for the 3 1/4" seems to be elusive (at least for me), however it was introduced prior to the 3" version.

I always understood the 450NE (maybe incorrectly) was the the first NE round loaded with cordite. It was introduced in 1898.

Does the 450-400 3 1/4" fall between 1898 and 1902?

I have one built in 1905 or 1906, so they were definitely available then.

08 February 2013, 02:33

MtnBoy

Thanks Guys. This tells me that a 450/400 dating from 1885 is probably a 2 3/8 BPE gun. Am I right?

08 February 2013, 02:37

Mike Brooks

No, it could have been a 3 1/4" BPE round.

08 February 2013, 03:08

MtnBoy

This round would have been based on the .450 BPE case? Circa 1877? Could be.

08 February 2013, 03:45

Mike Brooks

That's correct. BUT many of that series used a thicker rim that the 450 3 1/4" BPE.

08 February 2013, 04:03

Biebs

My source says 1898 with a question mark after it.

08 February 2013, 04:05

MJines

From African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt:

"The history of the .450/400 Nitro Express 3" Jeffery starts with the .450/400 Magnum Nitro Express 3 1/4" first listed in Kynoch's 1884 catalogue. That cartridge was the standard .450 NE 3 1/4" necked down to .409" calibre, but initially suffered from the fact that the original black powder case's walls were too thin to work reliably with the nitro loads which generated higher pressures."

08 February 2013, 04:06

Mike Brooks

Who's that source? Your little brother?

08 February 2013, 04:19

MJines

Uhh? I gave the source.

08 February 2013, 04:24

Mike Brooks

LOL, That was for Biebs, The old man..
Wwe posted about the same time Mike.

08 February 2013, 04:28

MJines

Got it! I was scratching my head there for a minute.

08 February 2013, 19:59

MtnBoy

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
From African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt:

"The history of the .450/400 Nitro Express 3" Jeffery starts with the .450/400 Magnum Nitro Express 3 1/4" first listed in Kynoch's 1884 catalogue. That cartridge was the standard .450 NE 3 1/4" necked down to .409" calibre, but initially suffered from the fact that the original black powder case's walls were too thin to work reliably with the nitro loads which generated higher pressures."

IS this 1884 date for the intro of the NE cartridge and not the BPE cartridge? Or are we still talking BP in 1884/1885? Bob

08 February 2013, 20:21

MJines

I read the quote to say that the 1884 date referred to the nitro express cartridge.

08 February 2013, 20:39

MikeBurke

Mike,

I read it the same way, but do not think it is correct.

The standard 450 NE 3 1/4" was not created until 1898 as per Taylor's book, so the 450-400 3 1/4" was not based on that cartidge.

It was based on a neck down 450 BPE I believe which caused some early problems with cordite.

Cordite was not available until around 1890.

I still believe the first cordite loaded 450-400 3 1/4 were in the mid to late 1890s, especially since the 450 NE 3 1/4" is commonly regarded as the first Nitro Express smokeless cartridge.

Ask Will, he was probably around back then.

08 February 2013, 21:19

Biebs

quote:
Who's that source? Your little brother? Wink

He's actually quite knowledgable :-)

08 February 2013, 21:36

465H&H

Fleming lists the 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro's introduction date as pre 1899 and 1902 for the 3" case. 1884 for the 450/400 3 1/4" BP load.

465H&H

09 February 2013, 03:51

MtnBoy

When I look at the rifle next week, my guess is the flats will show proof for 110gr black powder. That will be end of my interest in the piece as I want a shooter, not a collector piece. Thanks for all your help. Cheers, Bob

09 February 2013, 04:00

Mike Brooks

Chances are that if it that old it won't show the load it was regulated for.
And collector rifles still shoot good too!

09 February 2013, 16:00

Rusty

While the original 450/400 3 1/4 was a BP cartridge, the 400 Jeffery, aka 450/400 3 inch Nitro Express, has always been a Nitro Express (Cordite) cartridge.
Some of the earlier rifle were later reproofed with the 450/400 3 1/4 loaded with Cordite.

If a rifle was proofed and/or reproofed by the Birmingham Proof House, It will be so marked on the flats!

Rusty
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09 February 2013, 17:19

MtnBoy

Thanks Rusty. This gives me hope. My .404 has served me well, but if this rifle has been reproofed, one more buff hunt may be on the horizon

Would the nitro proof marks indicate what load it was proofed for?

09 February 2013, 18:14

Rusty

It should tell your bullet weight and what Cordite load it was proofed for. If the case length is stamped on the flats then the rifle was reproofed in 1925 or later. Pressure expressed in "tons" was added in 1954.

09 February 2013, 22:16

MtnBoy

Was out building a green house for the wife when it occurred to me that a BPE might be reproofed for nitro for black, ie 40gr of cordite, or perhaps even for the 60gr load. What about the twist rate? The BPE rifle was designed around a 210-270gr lead bullet--twist, maybe 1 in 20 or even slower. Certainly not fast enough to stabilize the 400gr jacketed bullet of the NE load--what, about 1 in 12? Is my thinking correct?

10 February 2013, 00:14

Rusty

The flats should tell you all!

10 February 2013, 03:57

MtnBoy

Is my thinking correct on the twist rates? Will the BPE rifle have a much slower twist rate. Thanks again for all the assistance. bob

10 February 2013, 16:06

Rusty

Many old 450/400 3 1/4 rifles, after the advent of Cordite were reproofed. They most certainly did not re-barrel the rifles. Manufacturers would certainly not make a rifle that fired an unstable bullet.

I personally do not know if there is a different twist rate for a BPE.

10 February 2013, 17:58

MtnBoy

Thanks Rusty

10 February 2013, 20:19

MikeBurke

This is a pretty good article about a 450-400 3 1/4" BPE rifle built in 1891. It is hammerless rifle. After 1925 the rifle received new nitro proofs. It was proofed for 60 grains of cordite which is the full Nitro loading for the round, not the Tropical loading of 55 grains.

http://www.rbsiii.com/collecti...woodward_400NE_1.htm

10 February 2013, 21:50

Alaskaman11

quote:
Originally posted by Mike70560:
This is a pretty good article about a 450-400 3 1/4" BPE rifle built in 1891. It is hammerless rifle. After 1925 the rifle received new nitro proofs. It was proofed for 60 grains of cordite which is the full Nitro loading for the round, not the Tropical loading of 55 grains.

http://www.rbsiii.com/collecti...woodward_400NE_1.htm

Seeing the letter attached is what is drawing me to these Rifles. It's also the since of history and the mileage that they have seen over the last century. I Would love to know who the Honerable E.S Douglas Pennant was (besides the narrative). I don't know I guess it's my History Degree come screaming out of me.

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11 February 2013, 18:49

MtnBoy

Seeing a BPE gun actually reproofed for the 60gr cordite load gives me renewed hope.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike70560:
This is a pretty good article about a 450-400 3 1/4" BPE rifle built in 1891. It is hammerless rifle. After 1925 the rifle received new nitro proofs. It was proofed for 60 grains of cordite which is the full Nitro loading for the round, not the Tropical loading of 55 grains.

http://www.rbsiii.com/collecti...woodward_400NE_1.htm

12 February 2013, 00:53

465H&H

MtnBoy,

Quite a few 450/400 BP rifles have been reproofed for the Nitro load over the years. It is my understanding that the three major concerns that need to be considered in such a conversion are, the strength of the action and barrels, the weight of the rifle as many of the original BP rifles were built much lighter than the later Nitro rifles and last but possibly the most important is that the rifles will probably have to be re-regulated for the Nitro load.

465H&H

12 February 2013, 03:31

MtnBoy

465H&H, Thanks for the info. 9.5-10 pounds would be a proper weight for a .450/400 double?

12 February 2013, 04:17

Mike Brooks

That'd be a good weight. My 450NE is 10#.

12 February 2013, 04:24

Alaskaman11

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
That'd be a good weight. My 450NE is 10#.

ya, but all of that weight of your rifle is on the last 5 inches of your barrels! Your 450 weighs a ton!

Double Rifles, This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as bolt rifle. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

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Chapuis 9.3x74R
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12 February 2013, 04:27

465H&H

quote:
Originally posted by MtnBoy:
465H&H, Thanks for the info. 9.5-10 pounds would be a proper weight for a .450/400 double?

The English doubles that I have seen have ranged from 9.5 to 10.5 or slightly more.

465H&H

14 February 2013, 23:54

MtnBoy

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty:
The flats should tell you all!

And you were right. I looked at the rifle today. A .400 Express, reproofed sometime after 1924 to the nitro for black load, 40gr cordite with 270gr bullet. Cartridge length stamped on the flats. The bores/chambers are pristine,like a new rifle. Gun is very tight but quite lite, maybe 8.5-9lbs. Thanks again for all the assistance.