I am taking a brief vacation from reality as I define it to look at building a double rifle. I have access to a Suhl 16ga (minus the wood)side by side. A regular at the shop is building a double SxS in 45-90 and I have been following the project with a great deal of interest. He is at load development stage right now, and will be regulating within a week. 350gr Hornday's at 2200fps and each barrel shoots them under 2.5" at 100 yds. Been reading Ellis Brown's book...erotic press for a closet double lover. Any out there doing one of these?
This one will likely be the 28 Gauge from Purgatory...or some such thing...

regards,

Rich

why don't you build it in a rifle caliber ?

wouldn't you get more use out of a rifle than a 28 ga ?
and where will you buy slugs for it ?

or do you plan on making your own ?

i have sleever tubes all profiled , ready to put into your monoblock with little work at the breech end.

cal avail: 30, 7mm, 9,3, 45 and 12 ga rifled

cost is $160 / bbl

also have a one piece top rib which includes the rear quarter rib, the between the barrels rib and the front ramp all in one piece. this greatly simplifies and speeds up installation.
cost is $85.00 this top rib matches the barrel profiles too.

many other items available - ribs , forend hooks, ejector forends & parts, articulated trigger kit, forend tip casting for anson pushbutton forend...

if i can help, or any ??? email me or call

crownpress@alltel.net 814 774 5739 tom

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
why don't you build it in a rifle caliber ?

wouldn't you get more use out of a rifle than a 28 ga ?

T577, I would bet IS is making a play on the 12 GFH built by RGB.

You're venturing into exquisite territory, Idaho!!! Please fill us in as you progress! Both good and bad are equally educating for the rest of us.

I just happen, by a serendipitious stroke of luck, to have some 505 Gibbs cylindrical brass. It measures roughly 3.2" oal, and .535 on the rim and base. A 28ga W-W shotgun loaded round in front of me measures .679" on the rim x.044 rim thickness, by .614 body diameter just in front of the rim. It takes no great vision to squint a tad and see a shrunk Ed Hubel 12Ga from Hell in my future. Think of it as a 28ga from Purgatory...? Our good friend R Neal Shirley has gotten us .550" bore barrels into production by several barrelmakers, and over a dozen bullets from 500-800grains. My-Oh-My!!!

If I figure correctly, it is no great stretch to cutting a reamer and making a double rifle chambered for this case. Get Ed to make me some washers/rims, turn the original Gibbs rim to about .500 to clear the headstamp, screw/epoxy the new rim on and...3.2" 28 Gauge Magnum markings on the rims and barrel. It would even fire 28 gauge shells in a pinch if done right.

Am I crazy...wait, don't asnwer that for about 90 days.


Rich

I'm in the latter stages of my most recent build which is a .450 #2 NE with both express sights and QD scope mounts and a second set of 12 bore barrels, with their own separate forearm and ejectors, fitted to the same action. It'll be sort of a do-it-all African gun in one fairly compact small aluminum case. I plan to regulate with 500 grain bullets out of both barrels to the iron sights, and 350 grainers out of the left barrel with the scope.

Ron,

what shotgun did you use? I would really like the 550/28bore magnum, but in conversation with W Ellis Brown he thinks anything short of a late model 12 gauge magnum is stretching it...severely.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:


i have sleever tubes all profiled , ready to put into your monoblock with little work at the breech end.

cal avail: 30, 7mm, 9,3, 45 and 12 ga rifled

cost is $160 / bbl

Does this mean that you can slip a sleever tube into an existing shotgun to turn it into a double rifle? Is there a mechanism for regulating the barrels? Thank you.

I believe that by 'monoblock' be means the breech end of the barrel assembly. IE; cut the barrel tubes off. Then add the rib and wedge.

My gunsmith says it CAN be done, but is a royal pain in the arse. You measure the chamber, mid barrel and muzzle inside diameters. Turn the barrels to those muzzle and breech dimensions and about .050" under the mid barrel measurement. You must then turn an eccentric sleeve to fit the ID. Cut the barrels about 1/4" long and then mill a slot across both. Put the eccentric on the barrels with epoxy. You then shoot until you get a load that delivers the accuracy and velocity you desire and begin turning the barrels with a big (make that B-I-G!!) screwdriver until the barrels converge at a given distance...generally 50-75-100yds, depending on caliber. You may or may not get groups at any closer or farther distance, although he is of the opinion that you will be very close until you get to the desired distance and then they slowly run out. Did I mention this gentleman is well past middle age? He built his first DR this way on a british heavy twelve gauge frame in 45-something rimmed and used a couple new, in the military crates, Gatling Gun 45-70 barrels.
Did I say he was in his mid-seventies? The man has done about everything you can imagine in the gunsmithing business. Twice!

I just sit at the feet of the master and learn.

Rich

i have a charles daly double that was made into a 45-70 close to the method you describe. the interior cams are a neat idea. it is regulated for 80 yards and it is well within a minute of deer even further. at 80 yd shooting hard cast bullets it is easy to keep a coffee can rolling about. the only real negitive aspect of it is that it is a bit heavy although it balances well as the original barrels were shortened.

Idaho, the shotguns that I used were a pair of BRNO ZP-49's.

for 500 grain

our sleever tubes are made to be used in a monoblock that has the old barrels cut off.

this is the way searcy and rigby build theirs.

we even have a special top rib that includes the quarter rib , between the barrels rib and the front ramp all in one piece. this GREATLY simplifies installation. and it is made to fit the profile of our barrels so it saves time too.

s x s double rifle top rib $90.00

o/u double rifle top rib $90.00 - this one makes a nice top rib for custom bolt rifles or single shots too !

bottom or side ribs $48.00

we have many parts to help double gun & rifle builders & repairers. tom o

As a matter of interest, I recently purchased one of Tom Ondrus's top/quarter ribs from him for the .450 #2 that I'm currently working on. They are very nicely machined and are a great time saver. Also, his sevice was fast and courteous! He also has a simple, photo-copied catalogue, for a couple of bucks, which is an interesting read.

thanks Ron and Tom...every bit of help is greatly appreciated.

We have good news and bad news on the DR project. I have found a Sauer 16ga. The bad news, there is not enough action there to build the 550/28ga Magnum. That case will require a heavy duck/goose gun 12ga magnum frame to start. I'm looking for one.

The rest of the bad news; I sent Ed Hubel some 505 cylindrical brass and he has tried to do a rim thingie like he does on the 50 Bmg case to make haevy duty 12ga cases. The 505 cyl does not have enough meat in the extractor groove area to permit safe rim attachment.

The good news: I will be building a 9.5x74R, yes a nine-point-five by seventy four Rimmed cartridge! To you cartridge buffs, in 1888 Winchester designed and built the 38-90-217gr Express Cartridge. The germans imported rifles and ammunition; and Ludwig Loewe and Sons, in Berlin, took tha 38-90 (.375" bore) and necked it down .009" to create their beloved 9.3m series of rimmed cardtridges.

I have W Ellis Brown's book, and have been talking with him on the details of building said double rifle. I think I can follow directions and the gunsmith and I are going to take a whack at this. Wish us luck!

Rich

Rich, I'm not familiar with a 9.5 are you sure you don't mean 9.3x74R?

Ron,

just checking to see if anybody was paying attention. Winchester, in 1888, designed a cartridge called the 38-90-217. Express round with a 217gr bullet. The next spring they sold rifles and ammunition in England and Europe. The germans fell in love with the case and necked it down .009" to creat their beloved line of 9.3mm cartridges. Several years ago Dave Davidson of CH4D, a true 375 caliber fan, was given some 9.3x74R brass. He necked it up to 375, and got to researching it. Found out about the 38-90. Decided to have Butch Searcy build him a double for Africa. 270gr Speer, I believe, running about 2460fps or so. He told me that he figured any idiot with a dremel tool could make the 9.3 on the headstamp into a 9.5 and match the barrel markings. That made it legal to take to the dark continent and kill buffalo, etc with. I got the idea wrapped around building a 38-90 for BPCRS, Long Range and the Quigley Match. One rifle for all black powder competition venues. I call Dave about making dies, and he tells me the story, pretty much as you have read it here. I have just rebarrelled one of my Shiloh Sharps to 38-90 and will be fitting the new extractor next week to go shoot black powder in. It also seems to be a very worthwhile candidate to build a double rifle on. Any frame strong enough for the 9.3x74R will handle this one as well. Just being a bit different, and I already have the dies and 700 pieces of Norma brass.

Rich

Rich,
Today's the first opportunity that I've had, to sit down and think about your last post. The 9.3 x 74R case, necked up to accept .375 calibre bullets makes a whole lot of sense. You end up with more horsepower, a greater selection of bullets, and you make the .375 minimum on DG in a few African countries. Without seeing any hard numbers, I'd guess that you end up with a rimmed .375 H&H as far as power goes.

Ron, et al,

yes it does. I think at equivalent pressures you can run a 300gr .375" bullet within 50-75fps of the 286gr TUG bullet in a 9.3 case. As I said, Dave Davidson at CH4D Tool & Die did this in the early nineties' and has taken it to Africa several times. Lots of dead buffalo could testify to its effectiveness...if they could still talk.
Probably not quite to 375 ME levels, but pretty close. The best part, is taking a dremel tool and making that 9.3 into a 9.5 and going to Africa with it. Dave has dies in stock and NOrma is making brass, as are others. It will be my double caliber of choice.

Rich
DRSS

Hi guys,
{I realize that this ia a fairly old thread but...}
Can this 9.5x74R brass fire a 335 grain, .375"
diameter custom made bullet from North Fork
or G S Custom in a Farqharsen at 2400 FPS in
a 26" or shorter bbl? If yes, how short a bbl could
you use and still get 2400 FPS? What would be
the right weight for such a rifle to have appro-
priate recoil? 335 grain .375 gives sectional den-
sity of .340 which is like 416 Rigby at Rigby vel-
ocity. This would be a great penetrator and DG
killer I believe.

I admire the fact your actually gonna do it.

I was all set to go to Butch Searcy's based on the offer he made here on AR. Didn't work out. I hope it changes in the future and he can offer that opportunity again. Guess I'll go back to scratch like you Idaho....but I WILL do it.

I will be following this....lol

CW

I am currently building a 9.3X74r on a Baikal action; I will post pictures soon. I thread the monoblock for the new barrels. I have built 3 45-70s on Baikals.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I am currently building a 9.3X74r on a Baikal action; I will post pictures soon. I thread the monoblock for the new barrels. I have built 3 45-70s on Baikals.

Which Baikal actions, please...enquiring minds want to know! I like my .30-06 but a 9.3x74r makes me start to drool... :-0

16 gauge shotgun actions; I got a bunch of them years ago from Century arms. Have to bush the firing pins on them but they are strong. (16s are the same frame as 12s) I make new stocks as the wrists are way too small on the originals.

DPCD
Any thoughts on the strength/size of the Huglu SxS actions in 28 or 20 ga for a relatively low pressure cartridge like .30/40 Krag?

Or, would an older German or Austrian action work? There are a lot of 16's around.

The older ones appeal to me more simply because you can find then with pretty nice engraving and classy shaping.

Idaho, I really do wish you the best with this. it reminds ome of the late Bill Harrah's Grand Cherokee with a 12 cylinder Ferrari engine...with carbs, not injection.

Un-soughtafter suggestion:If you finish the project without blowing either or both hands off, do this.
1. Open a very large line of credit.
2. Send the DR to Superior Ammunition and have them built the bullets and brass, and develop the load.

Good hunting.

I was in my local gun shop and they had a couple new CZ, 20 gauge SXS shot guns. These new guns were made by HULU and did NOT have a cross bolt.

In the used rack there was a beautiful CZ 20g SXS, also made by HULU, but it had a robust cross bolt and seemed to be bit heavier than the new CZs.

It was selling for $800 and had great wood with a nice cheek piece and a bit of cast off. I'd love to know if this action could handle full house 45-70 loads or 9.3 X ?.........

Cross bolts mean nothing until you blow it up; they are not stress bearing until the action goes off the face; meaning you have over stressed the first two bites. Greener, the inventor, says this in his book. So, I pay no attention to them. I do limit pressures to below 28000 on 45-70s and I will limit my 9.3 to 35000; as I want to limit the back thrust to around 5000 psi. Of course, the smaller cartridge diameter, the less psi you are putting on the frame, and with dry brass, sometimes nothing is transmitted to it besides the primer. PO Ackley showed that brass holds a lot of pressure by itself. Whereas, a shotgun hull transmits 100% of the pressure back, and they have a lot of surface area to do so. Hulus should work fine and I heard about one in .405 wcf. (Full house pressures of 9.3s can go way up there; I always stay below 35000 psi. For those nay sayers who think you will blow your hands off; we are using 4140 barrels which have strength far above any pressures we use in a double rifle. It is not the radial strength but axial pressures that we are concerned with.

Well done!........Thanks

i am on my third attempt .
made monoblock from the action on my first 2 attempts.. doing liners on the third one ..

45/120 is my final caliber .. why? well, thanks for asking.. its a 450NE in case capacity, and norma brass if fairly cheap...

the regulation load is to be rem 405 at 2150 ... more than enough for any piggie in texas

a 20 ga is too delicate for a big case.. consider nothign less than 16 ga

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
build the 550/28ga Magnum. That case will require a heavy duck/goose gun 12ga magnum frame to start. I'm looking for one.

Rich

this would be the 550 flanged - start with 577/500 cases and don't bother playing rim games with it ... brass isn't "cheap" and you CAN make it from 557, but you would HAVE to start with a 10ga for using the 577 rim diameter ... i've already done this twice.

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Idaho, I really do wish you the best with this. it reminds ome of the late Bill Harrah's Grand Cherokee with a 12 cylinder Ferrari engine...with carbs, not injection.

I have a picture of this beast from the early 80's..

Called the "Jerrari." I'm not making that up.

Okay, Rich, back to your project.