Red dot sights have a large following on handguns and AR type combat rifles.
Guns used for close to mid range fast shooting, where only hits count.

I have never been a user of red dot sights because I shoot rifles right handed and I am left eye dominate.

However I recently tried to teach this old dog a new trick.

I was invited to a "carbine" rifle school where the shooting was fast and close, max range 100 yards.

I do not own a red dot sight so I went early to do a little testing.

I fired several hundred rounds through the following, Aim Point, EO-Tec, Doctor Optic, and Insite.

I opted to use an Aim Point for the school as its dot only was easier for me to see with my "condition".

By the end of the school I was having no problem with shooting both eyes open.

After the school I again fired several hundred rounds with the different sights.

Results:

For my own AR I bought an EO-Tec, the new model that takes the lithium 123 batteries.

I still have the Zeiss Z Point that I am testing on my Blaser R 93.

I also have a couple of early EO Tec's that I will be testing on hunting rifles as well.

However the real sleeper for hunters may be the Doctor Optic. I could not find one to buy in LA while I was there but its small size is very nice.

I also did some accuracy tests, shooting at 100 yards.

With the same AR 15, same ammo, I could tell no difference in group sizes between the EO-Tec and a Leupold 2.5-8 LR MK4 set at 8X.

Bottom line is, for double rifles and big bore bolt rifles the "Red Dot" sights are worth looking at.
Especially if you have problems with iron sights.

I have an EO Tech on my AR-15. I was gonna put it on my Sako .375 but Alaska is changing the law, so we won't be allowed to use any sort of illuminated rectical....

- Clint

Take cover Tony. I bet Mark will blow a gasket on this subject. With his opion of regular scopes on classic DRs what it is. Red dot sigths on them should raise his B.P.

Tactically I am sure you are right about a fast sight picture. I have not used them at all except some years back when tring out other guys IPSC equipment. I was faster and better off with iron sights.(I could not find the dot quickly) Rifles might work better than pistols for me, have not tried them yet.

Keith

Keith, like anything different it takes some practice.

I never used them in my Job, or for hunting because;
1. I did not want to be battery dependant.

2. Because of my eye dominance "thing".

In reality, battery life has been greatly improved upon, [I would still have iron sight backup].

And with practice I have been able to over come my eye dominance problem.

They are VERY FAST.

Probably when Mark sees this he will heat up the Tar and call an emergency meeting of the DRSS....

But since even Rusty now has a scoped dpouble maybe I will be spared.

Simple facts are no matter what rifle you use, if you cannot be effective with iron sights you must find something that will work.

Years ago Mark and I visited JJ and he had mounted a "Holo" sight on an old Dominion grade Holland. Granted, it looked bad and I thought it was heresy, however I was amazed how quickly you could acquire the target with that sight.

...Ak. cajun''' I haven,t heard anything about a law infringeing on our rights to sights Are you sure your not thinking of laser sights...????????? One of those Doctor holosight things is what I,m planning on for my wifes 9.3....

JJ is installing one now on a Westley 470. It's a Weaver type base inlet into the qtr rib in front of the rear sight.

He had to file a groove down the middle of the sight base so the guy can still use the iron sights.

Looks strange but probably works.

I have used PDP-3s, Aimpoints, See-More's, Holosights, and EO-Techs on race pistols, ARs, subguns, and bows. They are amazingly effective fast sights. Is especially true for rifles as the dot size gets smaller because they can be both fast and selective at longer ranges.

My youngest son is military. He has the problem of being right handed and left master eyed. We took an AR built as an M4 (with a non-removable brake to make its barrel 16 1/8" long) and tried every sight we could find. The one he found greatly effective was a new 553 EO-tech. He was just pounding targets very quickly.

I ask Butch if my older .470 NE rib could be cut for a mount, and he indicated that it was too narrow to allow it ... I was very disappointed.

I think that while the EO-tech would look odd ... but it would be the fastest way to acquire a moving target for folks who can't use irons well. It would be wonderful for sudden encounters with a Buf.

Mark must have hit his head when he fell out of his chair...anyone have his phone number to call him and make sure he is ok?

Well pardon me all to hell for being indisposed. I was out back building a fire under the kettle.

Tony, there are shrinks who can prescribe drugs for treatment of fuckitis (the irrational compulsion to fix what ain't broke), as well as other neurotic compulsions.

For a back up plan though, anybody know the recipe for tar?

Effing knuckledraggers.
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"Serious rifles have two barrrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hollow sights are very good for carbines.

I have an EO Tech on my M1A Scout. The target acquisition capability is the fastest I have experienced. The illuminated dots come in two sizes - the smaller one is almost required for anything over about 40 yards.

My own observations:

-On the M1A, you need to add a comb riser to the stock. The unit sits on top of a picatinny rail. The internals to the unit are on the bottom, which adds even more rise to the sight. I don't believe a riser would be necessary with an AR 15, but may be an issue with a DR.

-The hollow sights do not "gather" light.

-You cannot use the hollow sights to zoom in on a target - no magnifying capability per se.

-There are no vertical or horizontal points of reference (like crosshairs).

My guess is that adding one to a DR would hurt its value. But if that is not a concern, then why not go whole hog - weld rails on both the top and the bottom. Then you could add all sorts of neat things - fashlights (I,ve read where one popular gunwriter slays beasts with the flash alone!), lasers, etc. Or, you could turn it into a real thumper and mount the grenade launcher piece from the M-16! Now there is a drilling!

Of course, then you'd need more balance, so add a thumb hole kevlar stock with built in adjustable comb riser. And maybe a fore end handle too.

Mark, how's that fire coming?

You guys missed one little important point about my post.
THE NEED.

As many get older they just cannot see iron sights.
A scope is one answer, red dot sights are another, especially for up close DG shooting.

They are smaller, lighter, and will be mounted far enough foward that on a hard kicker they cannot hit you in the face.

For DG rifle, bolt or double, the Doctor Optic may be the best bet.

It is always on, the battery lasts about 5 years, and it must weigh about 3 or 4 oz.
It has an automatic brightness adjustment.

It can be mounted low for a good stock cheek contact.

Red dot sights are an option worth looking into [how is that for a pun?? ] if you cannot see iron sights.

Here's where the claw mounts shine. you can have your scope, aimpoint and irons.

Us double rifle shooter's are traditionalist at hart and it's hard to see a space aged gadget on top of a beutiful traditionaly built Double rifle. Id give one a try as long as I didn't have to look at it on my gun when I didn't absolutly need it. Having said that they really work.
I got a sick feeling the first time I ever used one in that I new this day was coming and we may be considering making major changes in those rifles we have all used and fallen in love with.

We have special seasons for archery and muzzel loader my vote is we ban these sights on a double rifle and open up extended hunts and have a double rifle season.

450No2-

I think that Trijicon is handling the Doctor Optic.

Look here-they have their own Trijicon-branded model, and also the Doctor model.

Trijicon Red Dot

Never fear Mark, we have discussed putting you out to pature because of the age thing but decided against it, I can't remember why. I have a Kahles post w/ lighted reticle on the lightweight 9.3 you shot in the cold. It works great with the light turned on, very fast. I don't think I'm putting anything on the 500 for fear of another double tap. I have an Aimpoint on my M1A Socom II, it works great. My cheif can even shoot well with it. I think in the coming years you are going to see more of these types of optics in use on all manners of firearms (even doubles).

I most certainly am approaching the point where I will not be able to see my sights. I have a choice now. Wear my cheaters and see the sights, or not wear them and see the target.

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
I think in the coming years you are going to see more of these types of optics in use on all manners of firearms (even doubles).

Yeah, it's like watching the "braless look" go out of style. Some people can fuck up an anvil.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I'll put a docter on my S2 with I get it ordered. I guess it doesent matter, its a blaser. We know its not a "real double"

I bet I shoot better with it than I do my douglass.

If you cant see it, how can you hit it? Anything to make a humane kill easier I'm for!

Ed

The scope on a double rifle thing is a hot topic, to many on this site, and others where old time double rifle hunters hang out! Some things are simply considered to be the bastardizeing of a double rifle, to the point that it sickens some folks!

I'm not one of those folks, however! I believe, even as much as I love the classic S/S double rifle, in it's purest form, unless I can use it, to hunt with, in some effective way, then it becomes a wall hanger. I have lots of wall hangers in my collection, and simply do not need any more of them because I'm running out of wall space, for shadow boxes with old firearms and collector's ammo!

If your eyes are bad, and to be able to use your double rifle for it's intended purpose, and a glass sight will put the rifle back in service for you, then make an appointment with JJ, and get-er-done!

I'm about to have JJ do the number on my 9.3X74R Merkel 140E, and there are two scopes I'm looking at. One is the Luepold Veri-X III 1.5-5X20, with a German No 4 reticle, with the center apex illuminated, and the other is the Trigicon 1.25-4X24, TR21R.

The Lupy uses a battery, but the retical is black when turned off, and the No4 German post and crosshair is a fine reticle for fast acquisition on moveing targets that are close in. It is also good on dark targets in shadow in daylight, or on targets when light is fadeing.

The trigicon TR21R uses no batteries, and is lighted at all times, with the intencity adjusatable. The day light use is lighted by fiber optics, and lights the tip of the post with a red, or amber color choice. When light begines to fail, the tip is lighted by TRITIUM, that is charged all day but the fiber optics, so the sights can be seen day or night.


The scope is not normally carried mounted on the double rifle as it is on a bolt rifle. On a bolt rifle the scope is considered to be the primary sighting system, and is removed to get to the irons for back-up. The double is exactly the opposite. The irons are the primary sighting system, and the scope is installed, as needed for back-up, when the irons are no longer usable!

There is no sin invloved in the use of alternate sighting systems on any rifle, as long as it is used to get the best from a firearm! I say if you need a scope mount one, but have it done properly, by a person who knows what he is doing, and when it is done properly, then it only makes the rifle work at it's best!

Mac, Good post.

Take a close look at the Trijicon scope. The ones I have looked through have a BIG eye relief change when you change the power.

And then there is the middle ground for us "older gentlemen". The GhostRing/Peep site. Always on, dosen't look so bad on the gun, VERY tradintional, if the gun fits it's as fast. It's not unbreakable but a lot sturdier than the dot sights.

i have a millet reddot 1x on a ruger #1 458.... other than the dot covers a whole axis deer at 125 yds, i like it.... i ordered my chapuis with the QR rings and bases that dale has... i wanted the option to scope it later...

Many of the handgun red dot sights have 5 to 7 minute dots.

For a rifle you would probably like the 2 to 4 minute dots better.

Tony, like you, I am right handed/left eye. I took the carbine class with Clint and tried some of the red dots and I chose the EO/AA model, no 123's then. One significant advantage for snap shooting is that in non magnified red dots, cheek weld is not important, wherever the red dot is, is where the bullet will hit, regardless of hold. The 65 moa circle with the 1 moa dot gives fast acquisition with pinpoint accuracy, another strong point for the EOTech. I have seen pictures of the Doctor and they appear quite small, I am amazed that they have that kind of battery life, I knew the Aimpoints were up there, but I was not aware the Doctor was also! Lee.

I've got a couple 470s coming which I'll narrow down to one. One is a Merkel ejector and I've said before I like the the big square front ramp and you can open up the square rear notch to a V. The other will have a conventional bead. I'll see if I need to replace it. I won't ever mount any optic a big bore DR.

The biggest problem I can see with getting older and not seeing the sights is two fold. First the front sight on many safari rifles, double and bolt, is too freakin' small. Second is focusing between two planes, front and rear sight, and then superimposing it on a third plane. It's the sum of all three that gets you.

I'm glad to see alot of you have shot or own military semiautos with the modern combat optics. I've spent more time and money then I care to admit burning up ammo from numerous said rifles with iron sights as well as all kinds of optics. It's not what I learned to shoot as a kid but where I took it to another level as an adult. By reducing the # of sights to one on the piece it's faster and easier for ANY shooter.

What I don't think has been mentioned is the variable 1-?x scope with IR. The eyepiece is not as big on say a 24mm tube compared to an Eotech etc. But it's works perfectly. It's true two eyes open AND a real scope so you have the option to crank up to say 4x for a longer shot. They're smallish and low so they look good. And finally you have the option of an illuminated reticle, some fixed so you don't see them in bright light and others have brightness settings. Almost all are field models but to get all features on a given brand/model you might have to choose a tactical scope.

This for me is the ticket on my 416 Rigby bolt gun. A Burris 1-4x24mm with IR. Be nice on a DR 375 and smaller too. That said my 375 H&H mauser without irons gets a Leupold 2.5-8 and the DR stays nekkid

I like the idea of a scope on a 9.3, 375FL or 450/400. But I think I'll do it to a new gun, hate to cut a vintage one.

Have never looked through a red dot sight, so I am writing out of ignorance .... do any of them have long eye relief? If so it ought to be possible to remove a long multi leaf express sight from a vintage double and substitute a dovetail base to hold the dot sight, make the dot sight detachable and you could even have a folding leaf stuck on the front end of the base. Thus no alteration of the old rifle would be required.

vigillinus
There is no eyerelief in a Red Dot sight.
You can mount it in the same place as a regular scope or farther out.

Your plan would work.

However I would prefer to leave the standard sights on the double untouched and just fit the approperiate mount on to the doubles rib.

On a 400 and under double I would have it fitted with a scope and a red dot.
On a 450 and up double I would go with a red dot only.

I talked to the Zeiss rep at DSC and he stated that the Ziess Z Point would take the recoil of even a 577 or a 600.

I am trying a Z point on one of my Blaser R 93's, so far I like it, but the Doctor Optic is much more compact.
The Z Point has a 10cm dot [@4"] at 100 M

When I get back from AK I will track one down and give it a try.

I shot the Doctor quite a bit on an AR 15 but it was the Military model with the 7 Minute dot, which would be too big for a hunting rifle IMHO.
The 4 Minute dot I had on the Aimpoint was just about right.

I think the smaller sized dot on a Doctor is a 3.5 Minute one. Should be perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

Tony, there are shrinks who can prescribe drugs for treatment of fuckitis..........

I like it. Good word. Now I must run off and find a way to use it in a sentence.

Doc Optic is trick. I don't think it would be offensive on a big DR and it would definitely hunt. Not sure how rugged it is.

My Burris Euro Diamond 1x-4x-24mm #4 heavy with E-dot(red) shipped today. It'll go on a CZ 416 Rigby and I'll report back on the big bore forum.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/eurodiamond.html

If you didn't have to alter the original sights, it certainly might be an option (with a 2.5 MOA dot).

I tried to mount one on an H&K UMP once. The issue was that the front sight had to be removed for the EOTech to work properly.

That was not a problem with the H&K - knock a pin out and off comes the front sight. But it could be an issue with a double's front sight. And if you try to use a riser to raise the red dot sight, you will run into an issue with comb height.

On tactical rifles, they are great at short ranges. The dot is always on the shooting point even if your head is angled away from the stock. But the dot size does pose an issue at longer ranges. Even on tactical rifles (not sniper rifles), at longer ranges there appears to be a preference for an ACOG, ELCAN or similar small scope.

With that said, if anyone can make it work, Tony can.

Zeiss Z Point looks best as I've studied and figured. I'd like to hear back on how it worked for N E 450 #2.

Showbart
I have the Z Point on a 308 Blaser Tracker bbl.

It works real good. The factory rep told me that it will take the recoil from a 500 Nitro no problem.

You would want to mount any reddot sight a little above the iron sights so they are not in the way. It would still be low enough not to cause any cheek weld problems.

One nice thing about the Z Point is that it has a solar cell that works the sight in daylight, however battery life is so long on these sights that running out of juice is not a major concern.

For a rifle reddot I would want the dot to be 3 to 4 minutes.

The exception is the EO-Tech. It has a 1 min dot in the center of a 65 minute circle.

Up close at high speed you just put the impact point in the center of the circle. At extended ranges you use the 1 min dot.