Didnt want to hijack the best caliber choice so started this one.
Is the 500/416 a 500 Nitro necked down? Or is it a thinner rim like a 450 NE 3 1/4 necked down? Or 470 Nitro necked down?
How do you make brass? Are dies expensive? Seems an interesting choice given the fact you can use 416 bullets.

Here is link to Norma Ammo, website. With history and ballistics.

http://www.norma.cc/content.as...16%20Nitro%20Express

Quoted from the above:

quote:

Most of the classic Nitro Express cartridges are about one hundred years old. The 500/416 NE only goes back a few years and was developed by Krieghoff who wanted a rimmed round with performance equalling that of the 416 Rigby.

The 500/416 NE is a big game cartridge for double rifles using the 500 NE case and the classic 416 caliber bullet.

quote:

a rimmed round with performance equalling that of the 416 Rigby.

The factory ammo is loaded to only 2100 fps (2050 fps with my rifle and chrono) which seems really mild for this round's potential and no way approaches what is normally thought of as 416 Rigby speed. Being that my Heym is regulated to that and shoots so good, I guess it will have to do.

2100 fps


Plenty to whack most things and I doubt the animals would tell the difference but the shooter would if it was over 2200 fps in a DR.

Randy

I've been considering a 500-416 for my next double rifle. Still a couple years down the road or maybe a little sooner.

We'll see when your 450 comes in if it's not to heavy I might go that route I sure like Mikes new 450 but then I pritty much like all his doubles.

Brett's 500/450 is nice and compact and not at all too heavy and what a beauty,

Oh what the hell I might get a 470 It might end up being a function of what's availble when the money is saved up.

Akshooter,
Seems like an interesting round but with only one company making ammo for it a little on the rare side. And with factory ammo being only 2100 fps it doesnt seem like it would offer any real advantages in power over the 450/400. Would of seemed like a good idea if Hornady came out with the 450/416 due to the better supply of bullets. So far havent seen anything to sway me away from the 450/400.
Going to put one of my boats up for sale this spring and if it sells am pretty sure I'll be ordering another double before the year is out.

Randy,
The 500NE is a thin rim just like the 450NE.

The .500/.416 uses the same parent case as the .500 NE (or the .470 NE 3 1/4). Think of it as a necked down .470 but with a nearly 15 degree shoulder. My Kreighoff regulates at roughly 2330 fps with a 410 grain Woodleigh and 108-109 grains of H1000. I know this because it has been tested on no less than three different chronographs. At that velocity, the 410 grain Woodleigh will penetrate like crazy and probably out penetrate a .470 or .500 NE. It is a superb cartridge, probably the best of the double rifle cartridges and brings the double rifle into the modern era. Brass is readily available from Jamison but I have a bunch of BeLL brass that I have been using as well. The brass seems to last forever. Guys that shoot a 450/400 complain about the recoil of the .500/.416. While it is true that the .500/.416 does generate more recoil than a 450/400 (Hey, it's a lot more cartridge!), the recoil of the .500/.416 is no more of no less than a .416 Rigby loaded to a similar velocity. If you can shoot a Rigby, you will have no problem shooting a .500/.416.

If you look in the Krieghoff catalog it states it was co-developed by K and WR Ammunition company. The base case is the .500 NE and it should shoot a 410 grain bullet at 2330 Fps 4940 Ft/lbs Muzzle and 2085 Fps & 4015 Ft/lbs at 100 M / 110 yds.
Of course the .500 NE is the base case for the .470 NE also, so forming brass from either should be possible.
You can get ammo from Krieghoff.

Nitro450exp

Well, I'm glad that someone who knows about the 500/416 has chipped in. Mine regulates at a little over 2300fps as well (don't have it in front of me). In addition mine regulates well with GS Custom 380 grain FN's. I have no reason to believe that the 500/416 will penetrate any less than the 416 Rigby! I have previously posted targets as I recollect.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by west2721:

quote:

a rimmed round with performance equalling that of the 416 Rigby.

The factory ammo is loaded to only 2100 fps (2050 fps with my rifle and chrono) which seems really mild for this round's potential and no way approaches what is normally thought of as 416 Rigby speed. Being that my Heym is regulated to that and shoots so good, I guess it will have to do.

If you are referring to the Norma ammo, for reasons that I don't really understand, Norma decided to load their ammo with a 450 grain bullet. Krieghoff specifically designed this cartridge with a 410 grain Woodleigh in mind. With a 410 grain bullet, the .500/.416 EASILY makes 2330 fps out of the 24 inch barrel of my K-gun at very modest pressure. I can't say anything about factory ammo as I have only ever fed my K-gun ammo that I have personally loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well, I'm glad that someone who knows about the 500/416 has chipped in.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by saying something you interpreted as negative against the 500/416, but maybe you should be a little more diligent in reading the details before you assume someone doesn't know what they are talking about. The Norma ammo uses a 450 grain bullet so it is obviously going to be slower than a 400/410 gr round.

I have also shot the Kreighoff 410 gr solid loads and they chrono'ed at 2220, i.e. didn't get close to the advertised 2330 fps although I got great groups. Again, not 416 Rigby speeds according to my reloading manuals, maybe not even 416 Rem speeds so it looks like comparing the 500/416 to the 416 Rigby is maybe just a tad of marketing hype? Imagine that. Never has happened before, right?

All this is not to say I don't like the round and my rifle. And as already mentioned, it should be "plenty" to get the job done.

And yep, Dave, I was referring to the Norma 450 gr ammo in my first post as that is what was linked to by fourbore.

My recollection is that about '90 or '91 Art Alphin created the "416 Rimmed" using a 400 gr at 'standard Nitro pressures' giving 23 to 2400fps in 25 of 26 " barrels. I believe it was first chambered by Francotte then by Krieghoff,Chapuis and others.

Later around '95 or '96 it was standardized by Krieghoff as the "500/416" with a 410gr at a higher pressure to get the velocity out of the shorter K-gun barrels.

Alpin's 3.3 inch long rimmed 416 cartridge is not the same cartridge as the .500/.416 NE 3 1/4. Krieghoff's cartridge was designed by Walter Brass who was the managing director or Krieghoff from 1990 till 1993.

quote:

Originally posted by west2721:

I have also shot the Kreighoff 410 gr solid loads and they chrono'ed at 2220, i.e. didn't get close to the advertised 2330 fps although I got great groups. Again, not 416 Rigby speeds according to my reloading manuals, maybe not even 416 Rem speeds so it looks like comparing the 500/416 to the 416 Rigby is maybe just a tad of marketing hype? Imagine that. Never has happened before, right?

Okay, one more time. IT'S NOT MARKETING HYPE! I don't have a clue what factory ammo does but in my Krieghoff 2330 fps is easily achievable. The load is a BeLL case, Federal 215 magnum primer, 108-109 grains of H1000, and a 410 Woodleigh soft WHICH IS EXACTLY THE LOAD THAT KRIEGHOFF PROVIDED. I have some load data from another AR member that shows a velocity of over 2400 fps with a 416 Woodleigh solid. This cartridge will easily duplicate the original ballistics for the .416 Rigby (which, by the way, is only 2300 fps with a 410 bullets out of a 26 inch barrel). These are my chronograph results and I bought the rifle used and the previous owner shot the exact same load over two different chronographs (I have the printouts) with the exact same results.

Why so defensive about this caliber? I gave the results of what I have shot with the Krieghoff ammo. As I said, my Heym shoots that factory ammo great - but I only got 2220 fps out of it. Not making it up. Okay, I got it figured out. I'm in MT and it was only 30 degrees that day so the factory ammo would easily shoot another 100 fps faster on a nice 80 degree day.

I too have shot handloads at 2350 fps but my rifle is obviously not regulated with that fast of a load.

Yea, but your assetion that comparing the .500/.416 to the .416 Rigby is "marketing hype" is simply untrue at least with respect to the K-gun.

West I have no idea what loads you are shooting, but if you bother to take the time, Kreighoff will send you reloading information. That information formed the basis for my reloads.
410gr. Woodleigh SP 109.5 gr. H1000 2340 fps.
410gr. Woodleigh solid 95grs. IMR 4350 2424fps
are examples. Use this data with caution. Once I had established that I was in the correct "envelope" I stopped chronographing! I shoot comparable velocities from my 416 Rigby.
Peter.
PS. I have never shot factory ammo from my K-gun!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Alpin's 3.3 inch long rimmed 416 cartridge is not the same cartridge as the .500/.416 NE 3 1/4. Krieghoff's cartridge was designed by Walter Brass who was the managing director or Krieghoff from 1990 till 1993.

"My recollection is still that about '90 or '91 Art Alphin created the "416 Rimmed" using a 400 gr at 'standard Nitro pressures' giving 23 to 2400fps in 25 of 26 " barrels. I believe it was first chambered by Francotte then by Krieghoff,Chapuis and others.2800 BAR

Later around '95 or '96 it was slightly altered and standardized by Krieghoff as the "500/416" with a 410gr at a higher pressure to get the velocity out of the shorter K-gun barrels." 3150 BAR

There,fixed it

Peter:

What brass are you using. Mostly I have been shooting BeLL brass and some Jamison. While I might be wrong, I think the Jamison brass generates slightly higher pressures.

Dave, I have a mixture of BeLL, WR and stuff labelled: "Rigby 416/500 NE". Is this the Jamison? I have no way of measuring pressure and have not noticed any difference in perceived recoil etc.
Peter.
PS. I shipped my K-gun off to Krieghoff to have the angle of opening increased. If the economy (stock market) continues to improve, I feel an elephant coming on!

How thick is the 500/416 rim: .040", .060", .080"...?

I know AA did his with .060". I used to NOT like this

NEW round. I changed my mind though, and now I

think it's 2300+ fps with 400 grainers and .416" diam-

eter is wonderful for a client hunter on a D/G hunt.

According to CIP the rim thickness for the 500/4i6 is 40 thou (1.02mm) which is consistent with the 500NE and 470NE, vs the 60 tho for AA's 416 Rimmed and 416 Gerlach.

The new Norma 500/416 ammo shoots 410grn Woodleighs at 2330fps -chrono'ed out of my (ex) Krieghoff- soft and solids shoot tot he same point of aim and regulate together.

102grns of H1000 achieves the same thing

This is the best double rifle round for ele for a PH. It is a pretty awsome lion round as well.

I switched to a .375 Krieghoff becuase I prefered the handling and balance not becuase of any shortcommings with the cartridge- and the new owner is estatic with it.

Ganyana, does your Krieghoff .375 shoot the flanged .375 or the belted version?

quote:

This is the best double rifle round for ele for a PH

Interesting, as the conventional wisdom on this forum has been that the 500/416 is not a "stopper"!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

This is the best double rifle round for ele for a PH

Interesting, as the conventional wisdom on this forum has been that the 500/416 is not a "stopper"!
Peter.

It isn't (and certainly comes up short compared to big bore vartridges,) but Ganyana isn't a believer in stopping cartridges as much as a believer in penetration. And a .416", 410gr solid at 2300fps is going to have substantially more penetration than a .458" or .474", 480gr or 500gr solid at ~2100fps or so, no matter which type of solid, comparing similar types between cartridges.

JPK

Dave - my .375 is flanged- New Norma ammo shoots 300grn bullets at 2420fps - their older 350grn at 2250 just didn't regulate.

JPK - you are right, I don't belive a .577 NE is a 'stopper' on ele and the 500/416 gives a PH the best possible penetration with an 'over 40' out there. Also because it is a 'modern' design it is designed to use slower powders that fill the case properly, yet are still easy to ignite.

Also though, I want an impact velocity of over 2280fps for cats - which effectively limmits my choice of flaned rounds to two.. .375FL and .500/416

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
...it is designed to use slower powders that fill the case properly,
yet are still easy to ignite. Also though, I want an impact velocity
of over 2280fps for cats...

Please, which powder(s)? Thanks.

Jack, most of the guys I know who shoot a .500/.416 shoot H1000.

And what makes H1000 wrong for my caliber?

Big Five

Many of the older british doubles and the newer european offerings built on a wide action were developed for cartridges that used a medium fast burning powder - about the same as 4064

If you use a powder like 4064 you will achieve the desired regulation velocity and performance with a half full case - particularly on rounds like the 450 No 2. Kynock uses a foam filler

I dislike fillers The 500/416 was developed to use a nearly full case of H1000 and regulate with that.

It is possible to get some of the older doubles to regulate using slower powder - I have had good sucess with S365 (H-414). Case is usually about 3/4 full on most of the big rounds. Fortunately the powder ignites easily and reliably at this loading density. Velocities (and Pressures) have to be a bit higher than standard to get perfect regulation but it works. Norma 203b is another powder that is 'technically' too slow but I have found easy to work up loads that regulate within pressure limmits and without loosing too much velocity

Ganyana

Like you, I don't like fillers and so
I always go for a powder that fills the case.

Never had a problem regulating any DR with
slower powders.

AS previously posted I use both H1000 and IMR 4350 to get my K gun to regulate (to my satisfaction). I don't use fillers in my regular loads, but do with cast bullet loads.
Peter

the 2 500/416 that I have shot were very accurate. With the blaser S2 ( I can hear the flame throwers) it was no problem busting softball size rock out to 75 yards with the sight on it. With a hitpoit red dot mounted, 125 yards was not that difficult.

Big Five

do you want loading data for 500/416?
Winchester LRM primers used for both rounds -

Bullets woodleigh 410grn Powder H1000 or Vimis 250
solids 102grn softs 101grns

.375 FL Woodleigh solid- 74,2grns Vimis 150
.375 FL Swift A frame - 74grns Vimis 150

Ganyana,

Thank you for the loads, but my ONE double is the old British 450/400 3&1/4.

Since I'm so UNinformed on how to select the correct powder to work up a

load, I just don't grasp how a powder can work correctly and safely, [meaning

fill the case, regulate at correct 2100 - 2200 FPS, stay clear of a dangerous

pressure, etc.] in a bigger piece of brass than I use but not be right for my cal-

iber. I need more education in this hand loading science. All I can do is go by

what the loading manuals say, and of course factor in the experiences of the
good guys here who have shared with me what works in their rifles.

Jack...the 'problem' may or may not be real...so much of regulating a double rifle is a touch of balistics and a fair smigin of voodoo- but on a gun with the barrels set wide appart at the rear, barrel time is more critical than on rifles with the barrels set very close together.

In theory...your rifle was made to regulate with chordite - Ie something with a burning rate around IMR 4895 or BLC (2). IF you go to a slower powder, you increase the barrel time so assuming the loads give the same velocity at the muzzel the loads with H1000 will shoot more to the right from the right barrel and more to the left from the left barrel...ie the regulation will be out.

That is theory...The reality is often a little different, since I can almost guarantee you are not 5'8" and 11 stone...which is the 'standard' size for a 'human being' according to old english standards...I am blessed by being exactly that, and just about all pre war rifles of Brit or German manufacture fit me perfectly unless they were custom stocked for someone.

I have played alot with my uncles Woodward 450/400 3". I could get 'acceptable' regulation (ie 4-5"split) using S 365 - (about the same as H414). If I wanted to get the barrels to shoot together I had to push MV to 2230fps (which has to be over pressure) but when S355 came out (approx reloader 15) I was able to get the barrels to shoot together at the right velocity. I sent the loads south and had them pressure checked and they are right at max but safe. The case is slightly less than 2/3 full but s355 ignights easily and I don't bother with a filler.

I suspect that your uncle's Woodward is so safe as to be ridiculous. The max. pressure for the 450/400 3" is something like 35000 CUP, but I suspect that in reality any 450/400 double could be shot at significantly higher pressures.

If you can remember what the "max" pressure was for your tests in SA it would be appreciated if you would pass along that bit of info.

Though many run around trying other powders it seems that RL-15 best duplicates the old cordite as Wright determined.

Guys, I think this is where the .500/.416 is different than most double rifle cartridges. I wanted to try RL 15 in my .500/.416 so I had our friend Jeffeoso work up some loads for me on his computer. I might be wrong about this so I will leave it to you guys who are more knowledgeable but I don't think you can get the .500/.416 to 2330 fps with RL 15 without going way over pressure. I think you could get it to 2150 fps without a problem but then it wouldn't regulate. This cartridge was designed with slow burning powders that fill the case to get it up to 2330 fps at acceptable pressures which is where Krieghoff wanted it to be. Jack, while I might be wrong, I think you can use a slower powder in your 450/400 and get it 2000-2050 fps but I don't think you can use a slower powder and get it to 2330 fps within acceptable pressure limits or get enough in the case for that matter. What do you think?