I'm sitting here watching Boddingtons elephant DVD after having watched Buzz Charltons elephant dvd. It is interesting to see the double in actual action. It is clear that in certain situations that a double rifle is the only rifle that offers a second shot before the animal disappears. On the flip side of that the number of guys pulling the front trigger twice, doubling their rifles, and taking FOREVER to reload them is disturbing. With the heart lung shot or missed brain shot the PH invariably runs after the elephant while the bumbling client is staring at his rifle trying to reload it. The guy trying to reload while keeping his eyes on the elephant is not faster if not much worse. Neither are running after the PH. Regardless of the weapon it seems like it is PH killing the elephant 60% of the time.

It seems like in the right hands the double is the superior weapon but the problem with that is those hands seem to belong to the PH the majority of time.

On top of that the "stopping power" of some of the bigger doubles seems to be dubious at best. I just watched a guy double a .577 into the head of an elephant with literally no reaction. The PH quickly follows up with the actual killing shot. A successful brain shot is easy to see but it really looks like a miss is a miss regardless of the caliber.

The really sad thing is that most of these hunters in these videos are much more experienced then the average client!

The bottom line seems like 90% of the clients would be better off with a scoped .375 but the guys who can actually handle a double correctly do very well.

Two winos are sitting at the top of a subway entrance sharing a bottle of Ripple. Young kid comes out of the subway with a fiddle case under one arm. He asks the two winos "how do I get to Carnegie Hall":. One of the winos opens a bleary, bloodshot eye and croaks at him; "Practice man, practice.".

It's the same with rifles, be they bolt action or Double Rifles.

Rich

All big talk. The implication is that you are so much better. Prove it.

But then I suspect that all this fast reloading talk on AR, "never missed any animal in my life", "I can shoot a double faster than a bolt", etc. etc. is just mostly bullshit.

There are a lot of advantages to a double rifle but also a lot of disadvantages to a double. Discussed elsewhere.

Add in that most can't shoot for crap. (The buffalo only ran a hundred yards after I shot, and only took eight more rounds to finish it off.") Even some recognized, so-called experts.

Throw in the a double rifle and, yikes, stand back for action!

Don't believe everything you read. Except that written by me.

quote:

A successful brain shot is easy to see but it really looks like a miss is a miss regardless of the caliber.

But this is just the worst of your comments. I should just ignore it but, good Lord, it flies in the face of all experienced elephant hunters to imply that caliber or energy does not matter.

Saint John Taylor was the first to try to quantify it and his KO values are pretty much, after all these years and all the imitators, the end all, though the wannabes try to come up with their own, and less relevant, formulations.

As my own wannabe quantifier, I have my 5000 ft-lb Rule. If you go elephant hunting with less than 5000 ft-lb of muzzle energy you are delusional.

But you tell us how it is! You can believe anything you want to but it doesn't make it the truth.

Sorry, but can't let this just pass.

Will's been eating his curmudgeon cakes again !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

A successful brain shot is easy to see but it really looks like a miss is a miss regardless of the caliber.

But this is just the worst of your comments. I should just ignore it but, good Lord, it flies in the face of all experienced elephant hunters to imply that caliber or energy does not matter.

Saint John Taylor was the first to try to quantify it and his KO values are pretty much, after all these years and all the imitators, the end all, though the wannabes try to come up with their own, and less relevant, formulations.

As my own wannabe quantifier, I have my 5000 ft-lb Rule. If you go elephant hunting with less than 5000 ft-lb of muzzle energy you are delusional.

But you tell us how it is! You can believe anything you want to but it doesn't make it the truth.

Sorry, but can't let this just pass.

+1 (did I really just type that, am I agreeing with Bill -- I need more coffee).

Bill is right. You want to stand down an elephant charge with a .375 H&H and hope that you can (i) find the elephant's head in the scope, and (ii) nail the brain as it bears down on you, God bless you. As for me I want to be shooting something that is going to knock the ever loving sh*t out of the elephant regardless of where it hits ... and even then that might not be enough.

Bill ... please pass the curmudgeon cakes.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
It is clear that in certain situations that a double rifle is the only rifle that offers a second shot before the animal disappears.


On top of that the "stopping power" of some of the bigger doubles seems to be dubious at best. I just watched a guy double a .577 into the head of an elephant with literally no reaction.

Yes, the double is by far the best weapon for the quick second shot no argument there, the problem with that wonderful option is when you have that quick second shot a your disposal most of us, myself included, have screwed up a first shot at one time or another because mentally your saying if I mif this one I've got the quick second. For DR users I think that's the biggest mental hurtle along with the double triggers,etc. When I was just knee high to a grasshopper I really wanted a semi-auto shotgun like my hunting buds had. My grandfather being a wise man got me a single shot, he said you'll become a better shot and miss less squirels than your buddies, he was right!

Stopping power of big doubles is not dubious at all. First off the gentleman that shot the 577 missed the brain, that was obvious and if he shot high on the first shot the doubled the second shot, it was headed skyward. Stopping power is great insurance in the hands of a competent shooter. I can shoot my 500 as well as I can shoot a 450N.E. so it's a no brainer when hunting elephant which one I'm going to carry. In Craig's video there was quite a few frontal brain shots (side brain shots no issue when brain was hit) made with a 450/400. This caliber IMO is marginal on frontal brain shots on ele bulls, it can get the job done but I think energy wise it's penetrative power is marginal at best,

I'd rather have a 375 H&H in my hands (WITHOUT SCOPE that will get you killed) than a 450/400 anytime on a frontal brain shot on an ele bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
. . . "I can shoot a double faster than a bolt", etc. etc. is just mostly bullshit".. .
. . ."Don't believe everything you read. Except that written by me. :")

Thank you, Will! You have most certainly brightened my day!

this is why you should stay away from crack...

IMHO the double rifle is THE best option for any of the Big Four, the cats are a different issue.
MJ's recent video with Buzz reinforces this better than words can say. Doubles aren't about killing, they're about stopping. IE, keeping something nasty from killing you.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

IMHO the double rifle is THE best option for any of the Big Four.....

Rich

Rich, I am not sure I agree. I don't care for a scope on a double because I think that in most cases it makes a rifle that is already heavy heavier. I think you can get much more precise shot placement with a scope sighted bolt than an open sighed double. When that really good buff is on the other side of the heard 75 yards away, you are probably better off with your bolt gun. On the other hand, in heavy cover or following up a wounded animal or for a tusker at close range, you are probably better off with your double. It's really hard to make generalizations because hunting situations are so diverse. IMHO the best of all worlds is a lighter scope sighted bolt gun paired with a good heavy double and that double should be a Blaser S2, of course!

Edited out after reflection on MJINES's post below.
Another rifle soon to be added!

Gee Mike, might need to lay off the caffeine. Nothing to get excited over. Take a break, add another rifle to your signature line.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
All big talk. The implication is that you are so much better. Prove it.

But then I suspect that all this fast reloading talk on AR, "never missed any animal in my life", "I can shoot a double faster than a bolt", etc. etc. is just mostly bullshit.

There are a lot of advantages to a double rifle but also a lot of disadvantages to a double. Discussed elsewhere.

Add in that most can't shoot for crap. (The buffalo only ran a hundred yards after I shot, and only took eight more rounds to finish it off.") Even some recognized, so-called experts.

Throw in the a double rifle and, yikes, stand back for action!

Don't believe everything you read. Except that written by me.

Will,

What in your highly experienced opinion is the "shiz" for an elephant hunting rig? And do you train or drill in anyway with your chosen rifles?


I practice reloads, snap shots, bolt cycles, loading on the run without looking at the rifle and shooting from many different positions calm, under stress, out of breath ETC. I carry a gun on my person and on duty so I tend to take firearms drilling serious and all of this stuff transfers to DG hunting as well as self defense.

It always shocks me to hear about the lack of training / drilling that the average hunters does with his rifle.

Simply being able to shoot your rifle is about 10% of the skills needed to be competent with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

IMHO the double rifle is THE best option for any of the Big Four.....

Rich

Rich, I am not sure I agree. I don't care for a scope on a double because I think that in most cases it makes a rifle that is already heavy heavier. I think you can get much more precise shot placement with a scope sighted bolt than an open sighed double. When that really good buff is on the other side of the heard 75 yards away, you are probably better off with your bolt gun. On the other hand, in heavy cover or following up a wounded animal or for a tusker at close range, you are probably better off with your double. It's really hard to make generalizations because hunting situations are so diverse. IMHO the best of all worlds is a lighter scope sighted bolt gun paired with a good heavy double and that double should be a Blaser S2, of course!

Dave,

I agreed with your comments until it turned into a Blaser commercial.

465H&H

Much of it is just personal preference and a willingness to shoot often and under hunting conditions such as anything from prarie dogs to feral hogs with the large caliber rifle of choice. I've practiced with a double rifle with frogs at a stock tank, on running rabbits, on running deer, running hogs, and a host of small or medium-sized game. All of this type practice helps the shooter to be able to perform under stress. There is a reason military or police snipers are often required to go through the pistol reactive target kill house with their fourteen pound sniper rifle.

Personally, if one is not interested in shooting a plus 45 caliber more than 100-200 rounds a year, then they should probably stick with a bolt action off of shooting sticks for DG, even with a scope, hunt defensively, and leave all of the hairy situations to the PH. If one wishes to hunt closer and more offensively, then be willing to sacrifice time and effort more than 99% of all sport hunters. There is nothing wrong and nothing noble about either method.

I know that MJines and I happen to be extremely fond of hunting with a double, but we both like to shoot them often and for fun. If it's not fun, then the shooter probably won't be pleased with the performance in the field.

As far as pure combat elephant hunting, I can't think of a living hunter who has as much experience with truly offensive elephant in close quarters than Richard Harlan. He chose four rifles: all bolt action .458 Win Mags with 500 grain solids. He preferred frontal charge shots with the animals coming to him. Many of his frontals were on cows, but many of them were moving as well and under extreme stress, both of which being causes for error. I suppose if I were lucky enough to be called to perform his fly belt task today, I would choose a bolt simply due to the ability to have four readily available shots.

Nothing appears as pleasant to me as sighting down the wide focal plain of a nice double only to find the little silver bead at the end settling between the eyes of an elephant at the distance of a little league bunt. But I love a handsome and functional bolt in a large caliber on a given day. Dogs in a kennel; which to take out today. Both good choices. Practice and have fun as other posts suggest.

quote:

Originally posted by Kelly Gill:
Much of it is just personal preference and a willingness to shoot often and under hunting conditions such as anything from prarie dogs to feral hogs with the large caliber rifle of choice. I've practiced with a double rifle with frogs at a stock tank, on running rabbits, on running deer, running hogs, and a host of small or medium-sized game. All of this type practice helps the shooter to be able to perform under stress.

Exactley.

I use my doubles and heavy bolts almost exclusively when hog/rabbit/turtle shooting on my place in Texas. I've gone through 100+ rounds of .470 in day popping feral hogs jack rabbits, bull frogs and such.

I find hog hunting to be some of the best training that there is for shooting any rifle but especially an iron sighted double or bolt gun as you get all kinds of shooting from up close and personal, fast moving all different angles coming at you running away you name it. It allows you to practice reloads and to figure out what works best for carrying gear what works and what doesn't. The main thing it does is allow you to get a ton of trigger time in field conditions there is no range time in world that comes close to equaling it.

Kelly is right on the money with this he obviously someone who's got this drill figured out.

quote:

Originally posted by Kelly Gill:
Much of it is just personal preference and a willingness to shoot often and under hunting conditions such as anything from prarie dogs to feral hogs with the large caliber rifle of choice. I've practiced with a double rifle with frogs at a stock tank, on running rabbits, on running deer, running hogs, and a host of small or medium-sized game. All of this type practice helps the shooter to be able to perform under stress. There is a reason military or police snipers are often required to go through the pistol reactive target kill house with their fourteen pound sniper rifle.

Personally, if one is not interested in shooting a plus 45 caliber more than 100-200 rounds a year, then they should probably stick with a bolt action off of shooting sticks for DG, even with a scope, hunt defensively, and leave all of the hairy situations to the PH. If one wishes to hunt closer and more offensively, then be willing to sacrifice time and effort more than 99% of all sport hunters. There is nothing wrong and nothing noble about either method.

I know that MJines and I happen to be extremely fond of hunting with a double, but we both like to shoot them often and for fun. If it's not fun, then the shooter probably won't be pleased with the performance in the field.

As far as pure combat elephant hunting, I can't think of a living hunter who has as much experience with truly offensive elephant in close quarters than Richard Harlan. He chose four rifles: all bolt action .458 Win Mags with 500 grain solids. He preferred frontal charge shots with the animals coming to him. Many of his frontals were on cows, but many of them were moving as well and under extreme stress, both of which being causes for error. I suppose if I were lucky enough to be called to perform his fly belt task today, I would choose a bolt simply due to the ability to have four readily available shots.

Nothing appears as pleasant to me as sighting down the wide focal plain of a nice double only to find the little silver bead at the end settling between the eyes of an elephant at the distance of a little league bunt. But I love a handsome and functional bolt in a large caliber on a given day. Dogs in a kennel; which to take out today. Both good choices. Practice and have fun as other posts suggest.

Kelly, welcome to the forums. It was a pleasure meeting you at DSC. Your experience and insights will be valuable additions.

Antlers,

Likewise and what a good show with an enjoyable gathering of interesting individuals. I would have gone all four days if my schedule would have allowed it. I am proud as a DSC member to see the convention grow through the years to a nice, yet manageable size. Officers and directors inform me that this is about as large as they intend to grow; let someone else chase the numbers.

And what a good crowd of double rifle shooters at the Heym booth!

Note: Apology to Richard Harland for letting my fingers type "Harlan", above.

Surestrike,

You have the practice regimen down it looks like. In 20 years of guiding feral hogs hunters off and on, I demand that those hunting with me stalk to a distance of 50 yards, or closer (but not more). It is amazing how many "deer" hunters have never had so much fun and been that close to the chosen game. Their speech is much more animated after this experience and many proclaim this hunt to be more fun than the three or four days they just spent chasing a trophy deer. Feral hogs are great practice for all hunters and that black body makes my front sight easier to see!

For more experienced hunters, I require them to let the hog run before firing their first shot. Many complain about that, but end up loving the practice and good shooting in the end. I strongly suggest open sights, or a scope turned to the lowest power and only in fairly open terrain if using a scope.

Feral hogs are about the best practice for DG hunting I can imagine.

Hi Kelly,

Welcome aboard. I've enjoyed watching you hunt in the videos

and I appreciate you sharing what experiences have taught you.

One thing we all know, the double rifle IS TWO RIFLES in one

stock, sharing one set of sights. If you have a lock component

failure or a trigger component failure or a firing pin failure etc.

when using a double, at least you still have a working rifle in

your hands.

I'll be the first to concede that I am no great shot with anything! BUT....I have overcome most of my trigger generated maladies by shooting the weapon I plan to use for hunting a LOT and I mean a lot!

For instance I shot my WR .600 over 200 times at varying ranges and positions before leaving on my last safari...Still muffed a shot here and there, but was able to follow up and finish the job.

And as most have seen, that .600 came in real hany at close-quarters when Ms. Tuskless came in for a closer look!

I have talked with guys that seem to be reluctant to shoot their prized doubles as much as they should before going on safari. I've heard the usual excuses: "The ammo is expensive", or "she's a vintage gun and I don't want to reduce the value by shooting it too much", or, I'm sensitive to recoil and don't want to develop a flinch", and so on and so on.

My advice: Don't shoot any weapon that you are not 100% comfortable and confident with. It's that simple!

Practice, practice, practice! That's loading, unloading, re-loading, carrying, cleaning, etc....

FWIW: I for one feel much more confident with a DR for DG.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Will's been eating his curmudgeon cakes again !!!

I thought they discontinued making those. He must have a recipe!

Brett

JW,

If you would, please give us a rough estimate of the number of ellie,

hippo, buff and any other DG that you've taken. I'm sure no one would

take it as bragging since I'm asking. It's just that we know you are

well experienced, and guys like me with zero DG experience, try to learn

as much as we can from you very experienced guys. Maybe you could link

up the numbers with different types of shots, charges, shots within ten
yards, and so on. Thanks much.

quote:

Originally posted by Kelly Gill:
Much of it is just personal preference and a willingness to shoot often and under hunting conditions such as anything from prarie dogs to feral hogs with the large caliber rifle of choice. I've practiced with a double rifle with frogs at a stock tank, on running rabbits, on running deer, running hogs, and a host of small or medium-sized game. All of this type practice helps the shooter to be able to perform under stress. There is a reason military or police snipers are often required to go through the pistol reactive target kill house with their fourteen pound sniper rifle.

Personally, if one is not interested in shooting a plus 45 caliber more than 100-200 rounds a year, then they should probably stick with a bolt action off of shooting sticks for DG, even with a scope, hunt defensively, and leave all of the hairy situations to the PH. If one wishes to hunt closer and more offensively, then be willing to sacrifice time and effort more than 99% of all sport hunters. There is nothing wrong and nothing noble about either method.

I know that MJines and I happen to be extremely fond of hunting with a double, but we both like to shoot them often and for fun. If it's not fun, then the shooter probably won't be pleased with the performance in the field.

As far as pure combat elephant hunting, I can't think of a living hunter who has as much experience with truly offensive elephant in close quarters than Richard Harlan. He chose four rifles: all bolt action .458 Win Mags with 500 grain solids. He preferred frontal charge shots with the animals coming to him. Many of his frontals were on cows, but many of them were moving as well and under extreme stress, both of which being causes for error. I suppose if I were lucky enough to be called to perform his fly belt task today, I would choose a bolt simply due to the ability to have four readily available shots.

Nothing appears as pleasant to me as sighting down the wide focal plain of a nice double only to find the little silver bead at the end settling between the eyes of an elephant at the distance of a little league bunt. But I love a handsome and functional bolt in a large caliber on a given day. Dogs in a kennel; which to take out today. Both good choices. Practice and have fun as other posts suggest.

You are dead right about no none knowing more about "offensive elephant hunting" than Richard Harland.

It must be remembered though, that Richard was in the business of taking out whole herds, none of which were necessarily of trophy status and he obviously felt that having the extra firepower an advantage and clearly it was, as his tally runs into many thousands.

There are/were few, if any, that could compete with him, a true legend.

It is intersting to see both Kelly and Jeff on this thread. Both seem to handle their guns well and do a good job of remaining CALM.

That said, I'd appreciate it if someone could point out some of the "knockout" effect. Are there elephants that seem like they are brain shot but just stunned? They all seem to turn and run when shot regardless of caliber, but maybe this ins't the case? I remember watching a show with a stunned elephant on TV last year or so but that gun was a .375

To my eyes, the guy seems to make much more of the difference then the gun.

I should restate, the double rifle is the best option for hunting Dangerous Game, cats excepted.
It's not Dangerous Game until you are close enough to see warts, etc; until then it's Big Game.

Rich

My rationale is: unless you are within the animal's terminal range, ie it is close enough to kill you before you can work the bolt of a rifle in the "Stopper" range the double is superior. Bang-Bang, not Bang-cycle the bolt-Bang!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

A successful brain shot is easy to see but it really looks like a miss is a miss regardless of the caliber.

But this is just the worst of your comments. I should just ignore it but, good Lord, it flies in the face of all experienced elephant hunters to imply that caliber or energy does not matter.

Saint John Taylor was the first to try to quantify it and his KO values are pretty much, after all these years and all the imitators, the end all, though the wannabes try to come up with their own, and less relevant, formulations.

As my own wannabe quantifier, I have my 5000 ft-lb Rule. If you go elephant hunting with less than 5000 ft-lb of muzzle energy you are delusional.

But you tell us how it is! You can believe anything you want to but it doesn't make it the truth.

Sorry, but can't let this just pass.

+1 (did I really just type that, am I agreeing with Bill -- I need more coffee).

Bill is right. You want to stand down an elephant charge with a .375 H&H and hope that you can (i) find the elephant's head in the scope, and (ii) nail the brain as it bears down on you, God bless you. As for me I want to be shooting something that is going to knock the ever loving sh*t out of the elephant regardless of where it hits ... and even then that might not be enough.

Bill ... please pass the curmudgeon cakes.

X3.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
It is intersting to see both Kelly and Jeff on this thread. Both seem to handle their guns well and do a good job of remaining CALM.

That said, I'd appreciate it if someone could point out some of the "knockout" effect. Are there elephants that seem like they are brain shot but just stunned? They all seem to turn and run when shot regardless of caliber, but maybe this ins't the case? I remember watching a show with a stunned elephant on TV last year or so but that gun was a .375

To my eyes, the guy seems to make much more of the difference then the gun.

I have knocked down our out cold a hand full of elephants. The beauty of the double under that situation is that the second barrel delivers the killing shot very quickly, before the elephant can either ragain its feet or wake up.

You can knock out an elephant for minutes. At the end of one LONG safari, we were so low on solid ammo, me from the trip, the PH because it was end of season, that we killed what turned out to be the last elephant with a knife. As the tracker and PH neared the juglar vein the ele began to regain conciousness. They won the race and the ele bled out before waking up.

All of my elephants have been shot with my double rifle in 458wm, shooting either 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at ~2200fps or 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2145fps. (Edit to add that that my loads meet Will's 5,000lb rule or very close. Will's rule is right, btw.)

If you totally blow the brain shot and the ele turns to depart, the second barrel allows you to put one in the heart very quickly.

As far as relaoding, a practiced man with a double with ejectors can reload quickly and on the run. The unpracticed fellows are slow for sure. Guys who get lost in their triggers need more practice. Want good SxS double rifle practice? Shoot a SxS two trigger shotgun.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

As far as relaoding, a practiced man with a double with ejectors can reload quickly and on the run. The unpracticed fellows are slow for sure. Guys who get lost in their triggers need more practice. Want good SxS double rifle practice? Shoot a SxS two trigger shotgun.

JPK

Apparently there are a very few who are simply too dysfunctional mentally or physically or possibly a combination of both, to ever figure this out. Or they are simply too bull headed arrogant to ever put in the time to learn.

Not to hijack the thread but I have a question for you guys that have killed elephants. On a frontal brain shot, what is the correct bullet placement? On a side brain shot, what is the correct bullet placement? Finally, will a well placed shoulder shot with an appropriate caliber bring a tusker down within 100 meters or so in most instances?

Jeepers, that is tough to answer in a forum post. Get copies of Buzz's and Boddington's elephant hunting DVDs and watch them.

On the side brain, shoot them in the ear hole. On the heart lung, yes, they will go down generally before going too far -- but if they are in a herd, all the trumpeting and anxiety is going to make it a less than pleasant experience. Frontal brain, depends on head angle, shot placement is very different if the head is held high versus low. The rule of thumb given is to imagine a broomstick that passes through each ear hole, then shoot to break the broomstick. A lot easier to say or type than it is to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Not to hijack the thread but I have a question for you guys that have killed elephants. On a frontal brain shot, what is the correct bullet placement? On a side brain shot, what is the correct bullet placement? Finally, will a well placed shoulder shot with an appropriate caliber bring a tusker down within 100 meters or so in most instances?

Dave,

There is no one answer to where to place a frontal brain shot to kill an ele, or a side brain shot either.

From the front, the brain lies from about 10" to 3' or more behind the proper point fo impact to reach it. The distance the bullet needs to travel in target and the point of impact on the head required to reach the brain change dramatically as the elephant moves it head up or down, right or left. And this is why the frontal brain shot is difficult to make, especially for the inexperienced hunter.

Then throw in that an elephant may be taller or shorter, you may be standing on ground level with the elephant or above or below, you may be closer and shooting upward more or further with less upward angle...

As a brief explanation of the movement of the head and the differing POI's required: assuming you are standing on level ground and so is the ele, and 20yds away, when an elephant is looking down its trunk at you, you will likely be shooting several inches below the line of the eyes to reach the brain. But if he is coming at you with his head down, you will be shooting well above the line of the eyes... No one set answer!

On a side brain shot, whther you are closer or further will effect elevation of the proper POI. If you are more forward you will need to shoot more forward, more to the rear, you will need to shoot more to the rear. BTW, my side brain preference is slightly rear of square on at about 15 to 20yds, so that I can actually see the ear hole within the slit at the base of the ear. A shot into the ear hole will do it with this target aspect, so will one a couple of inches lower (but not one much higher.)

In my experience, a heart/lung shot ele will go 50-100yds, plus or minus, before dropping. They are relatively soft, I think because their lungs are attached to their rib cages (apparently to give their trunks great suction,) unlike other creatures. You can also spine an elephant with a high shoulder shot. With either a heart/lung shot or a spine shot you will need to kill the elephant when you approach it. They will linger long without a brain insurance shot.

To each his own, but, excepting maybe for an elephant with really big ivory or an opportunity with just no other option, I see no good reason for a heart/lung shot. IMO, when possible, which is most of the time, the most fun and exciting option is to approach until the elephant turns to you. Ussually between 15yds and 10yds. You then have a moment to raise your rifle and kill the animal. If you are too slow with your rifle, it will spin and run or come for you. You won't know which in advance, and if your shot is timely, you won't find out.

JPK

Thanks guys!

Dave, I would concentrate much more on practicing the going-away shot. By the time you get the "safety" off on the S2, that's the only view you'll have...the Ele showing you a "Full Moon" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy my book to learn the brain shot. I would be somewhat cautious watching the elephant shot placement videos. The frontal shot has been erroneously described in ones I have seen.

I wouldn't shoot an elephant in the ear hole because the ear opening is not where the brain is centered.

The frontal shot? It's what separates the men from the boys!

To each their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, I would concentrate much more on practicing the going-away shot. By the time you get the "safety" off on the S2, that's the only view you'll have...the Ele showing you a "Full Moon" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Us Blaser guys can't get no respect!

Don't forget, I have a K-gun too!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, I would concentrate much more on practicing the going-away shot. By the time you get the "safety" off on the S2, that's the only view you'll have...the Ele showing you a "Full Moon" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Us Blaser guys can't get no respect!

Don't forget, I have a K-gun too!

That's strike two against you!!

465H&H

Now, that's cold!

Sorry Dave,

I was just jerking your chain a little. If you can handle the cocking mechanism comfortably and efficiently those rifles will work for you and probably already have.

When it comes to the effect of rifle bullets on elephants, a lot of the info given above is right on the mark. I will simply add that head shots are much more complicated than they appear. As an example I once took a large bull from about 26 yards with a side brain shot. That bullet hit the brain and killed the bull instantly. The bull was slightly uphill from me and the bullet entered three inches below and three inches in front of the bottom of the ear slit. Where the ear hole goes through the skull is about midway top to bottom of the brain. About I/3 of the brain lies behind this point.

I suggest you get Harland's book "Ndlovu", Ron Thompson's book "Mahoboh" and will's book "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" for info on shot placement. But the best method is to look at some sectioned elephant skulls to see exactly where the brain is located. You can then more easily see how the entrance point must change as the head changes position. Learn where in the head the brain is located and this will greatly improve your shot placement ability.

On side heart/lung shots, I have found that if the animal is exactly broadside a bullet placed right at the top of the crease behind the shoulder will hit he rear part of the aorta above the heart. To center the aorta hit about a hands breath forward of this spot. Shooting for the off shoulder on rear raking shots is a good plan. Elephants hit in these locations have only run from 20 feet to around 100 yards in my experience.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, I would concentrate much more on practicing the going-away shot. By the time you get the "safety" off on the S2, that's the only view you'll have...the Ele showing you a "Full Moon" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Us Blaser guys can't get no respect!

Don't forget, I have a K-gun too!

That's strike two against you!!

465H&H

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by Dave Bush

Now, that's cold!


Dave
DRSS

Don't worry Dave any double rifle is better than a push feed Remington 700, even a Blaser S2!