I forgot to answer the other part of your question concerning "knocking elephants out". I have done just that numerous times with head shots that missed the brain. Sometimes they are knocked unconscious and sometimes they are knocked down but cannot get back to their feet. I think that it is more common than supposed for them to be knocked unconscious but most clients don't realize it. After the ele goes down the PH will have the client run up and put in an insurance shot to the back of the head. The PH says to the client "Good shot. You brained him." Watch the upper hind leg and see if it is giving the death kick as you approach. If it isn't and it starts after you give it an insurance shot you will know that the first shot didn't kill it and it was only knocked out.

465H&H

Ha! Yeah, a lot of "dead" elephant are actually killed with the good ole "insurance shot."

A double rifle is a very specialized tool.

It's the best thing going if you want to fire two shots fast at close range - but that capability is the only advantage a double offers over a bolt rifle.

In hunting terms, that makes a double rifle - arguably - a better choice for elephant hunting in thick brush at close range and for following up wounded dangerous game.

For all other hunting, including elephant and other dangerous game hunting, a bolt rifle is the better choice.

And even for elephant hunting at close range and for following up wounded dangerous game, a bolt rifle in capable hands will get the job done and done well.

Sorry but I haven't drunk the Kool-Aid - not today and not ever.

MR,

There may be two more advantages to a double. You can have the instant choice of a soft or solid when hunting buffalo and at least to me the iron sighted double has it all over for instinct shooting at close range. But the double must fit extremely well.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
MR,

There may be two more advantages to a double. You can have the instant choice of a soft or solid when hunting buffalo and at least to me the iron sighted double has it all over for instinct shooting at close range. But the double must fit extremely well.

465H&H

I don't use solids on buffalo anymore - the TSX and other tough, modern expanding bullets commonly used in bolt rifles, but not doubles, make solids unnecessary for buffalo.

And I don't buy the theory that a double is faster to the shoulder than a bolt rifle - I believe that fit determines speed to the shoulder, regardless of rifle type.

Generally agree with all comments, especially those by Jines and Gill. My elephant frontal brain shots are limited to 7 animals taken with a 500 AHR at 2350 fps and a 585 AHR at 2250 fps with a bolt gun. Really at one time I had an opportunity to get a 500 Double, but declined as I felt that that would add too much to my learning curve. All my DG rifles have a Model 70 type safety and I do practice a lot with them before a hunt. Especially, fast rifle handling and with full loads. IMHO, do not back off on the loads during practice and then expect to get the same good result in the field. It may be that the recoil, the noise, or realigning with the target for the second shot are all areas which will not be expected in the field. Another thing, sight in with sticks and then get off the sticks and bench and practice with iron sights. For quick shots in the Jesse, you need an instant sight pattern almost without aiming and remember your PH, as good as he is, may not be in a position to get a head stopper on the charging ele to save your sorry butt.

Another reason for full loads with the big bore is that adequate penetration is a must, and it seems ridiculous reading that client hunters using 500, 577, 600 and 700 calibrs do not get adequate penetration. Check the velocity and if it is below 2100 fps, I feel it is too low for ele frontal brain shots.

For any Double Rifle shooters, any big bore (450 and up) properly loaded with good bullets will get the job done. For myself, I always admired the skill of good double rifle shooters and the hunting mystique that goes with it. Just recently got a book by Pappas on 600 Nitro Doubles and only can drool and dream.

Dak

Dakota, Except that if you get a 600NE up to 2,100 fps, they'll be burying you with it!!!

After using double rifles for over 15 years for game not "normally" hunted with doubles...
[I used them to get good with them before my African Safaris]...

On game like deer, wild pigs, black bear, over bait, and spot and stalk, caribou, turkey coyote, bobcat, skunk, armidillo,beaver,squirrel, most all my plains game in Africa and all my cape buff and elehant....

I have discovered the following, that having 2 immediately avialable shots, for most hunting situations, is far better than having a bolt rifle with a larger magazine.

I feel that the bolt Rifle is the more specialized hunting gun.

It is only better when most shots will be over 300 yards,[ I have killed game at 300 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R] and when hunting in open country where more than 2 shots might be able to be fired at a running animal.

For DG, for ME it is Double Rifles ONLY...

I would feel more comfortable hunting cape buff and elephants with my 9,3x74R double rifle than ANY calibre bolt rifle...

And, as most of you know, I have shot all of my cape buff under 60 yards, closest 12 yards, and most of my elephants under 6 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
After using double rifles for over 15 years for game not "normally" hunted with doubles...
[I used them to get good with them before my African Safaris]...

On game like deer, wild pigs, black bear, over bait, and spot and stalk, caribou, turkey coyote, bobcat, skunk, armidillo,beaver,squirrel, most all my plains game in Africa and all my cape buff and elehant....

I have discovered the following, that having 2 immediately avialable shots, for most hunting situations, is far better than having a bolt rifle with a larger magazine.

I feel that the bolt Rifle is the more specialized hunting gun.

It is only better when most shots will be over 300 yards,[ I have killed game at 300 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R] and when hunting in open country where more than 2 shots might be able to be fired at a running animal.

For DG, for ME it is Double Rifles ONLY...

I would feel more comfortable hunting cape buff and elephants with my 9,3x74R double rifle than ANY calibre bolt rifle...

And, as most of you know, I have shot all of my cape buff under 60 yards, closest 12 yards, and most of my elephants under 6 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
A double rifle is a very specialized tool.

It's the best thing going if you want to fire two shots fast at close range - but that capability is the only advantage a double offers over a bolt rifle.

In hunting terms, that makes a double rifle - arguably - a better choice for elephant hunting in thick brush at close range and for following up wounded dangerous game.

For all other hunting, including elephant and other dangerous game hunting, a bolt rifle is the better choice.

And even for elephant hunting at close range and for following up wounded dangerous game, a bolt rifle in capable hands will get the job done and done well.

Sorry but I haven't drunk the Kool-Aid - not today and not ever.

Oh, brother! Before you wouldn't say the words "double rifle."

Now you're discussing some benefits of a DR but are not convinced. I see this as serious weakening of will.

Can the kool-aid be far away?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
MR,

There may be two more advantages to a double. You can have the instant choice of a soft or solid when hunting buffalo and at least to me the iron sighted double has it all over for instinct shooting at close range. But the double must fit extremely well.

465H&H

I don't use solids on buffalo anymore - the TSX and other tough, modern expanding bullets commonly used in bolt rifles, but not doubles, make solids unnecessary for buffalo.

And I don't buy the theory that a double is faster to the shoulder than a bolt rifle - I believe that fit determines speed to the shoulder, regardless of rifle type.

There is a big diffence between "fast to the shoulder" and "Instinctive" shooting.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
double must fit extremely well.

There is a big diffence between "fast to the shoulder" and "Instinctive" shooting.

465H&H

Yep and until you have achieved a high level of proficiency that only comes from the right type of shooting/training with your rifle you won't know the difference. It's almost a zen state, not to be too sensitive a new age about it..

mrlexma......another advantage of a double over a bolt is the "two rifle in one" If you have a failure on one side you essentially have another functioning rifle already in your hands ready to go.

Bolt action fans seem to think it takes a week or so to reload a double. I think this is a big misconception. With a little practice I think that many double shooters can get off four aimed shots as quickly as a bolt action shooter. I have seen Mike70560's video and he can crank them out of his K-gun. I have only shot one elephant but it was with a 470 K-gun, and it was a side brain shot that was actually a little high but dropped him and as he rolled over on his side I used my second barrel for a heart shot. By the time my PH said reload, I already had. It took a couple of minutes to get another bull to leave before I could put the finisher in but the bull stayed down and out the whole time. All that to say the 470 knocked him down and out without hitting the brain and that it does not take long to shove two more shells in a double.

quote:

By the time my PH said reload, I already had.

This has been the case for me more than once as well.

Personally, I don't think that a DR man can keep pace with a GOOD bolt man for four. I can beat myself with a DR over a bolt, but I a cycle the bolt with the rifle off my shoulder, while a GOOD bolt man will do it while the rifle is still at his shoulder. I think most bolt shooters are similar to myself in their limitations.

But that is of little relevance, imo. The DR is MUCH faster for two, not too far behind for three if single loaded and nearly on pace for four. The thrid and fourth and any subsequent shots become increasingly irrelevant. The ele is down or he has high tailed it...

JPK

Mrlexma,

please read the following two short sentences out loud:

Boom-Boom

Boom, rack the bolt Boom.

I can add nothing to that.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

This has been the case for me more than once as well.

Personally, I don't think that a DR man can keep pace with a GOOD bolt man for four. I can beat myself with a DR over a bolt, but I a cycle the bolt with the rifle off my shoulder, while a GOOD bolt man will do it while the rifle is still at his shoulder. I think most bolt shooters are similar to myself in their limitations.

But that is of little relevance, imo. The DR is MUCH faster for two, not too far behind for three if single loaded and nearly on pace for four. The thrid and fourth and any subsequent shots become increasingly irrelevant. The ele is down or he has high tailed it...

JPK

Watch this film, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfY899uNOk0
I don't think a fast DR shoter can be faster than a fast bolt shoter for more than two shots.

--
lars

That fellow is spitting them out pretty quick.But then again ,he is not an average hunter and that is not an average hunting rifle.

Very impressive!

Here's my 2 cents...no change required. I love double rifles..they're fun, traditional, and add a sporting element to a hunt. But double rifles were created primarily because that's the only way they could come up with a multi-shot weapon in those days, until Mauser developed the bolt rifle. If it wasn't so heavy to build at the time, today we'd probably all be gaga over the "triple rifle!!!
I agree that a DR is in its realm on an Elephant hunt, not that it's a necessity. DRs in large calibers provide 2 fast and reliable shots at close range, and, if used correctly, that helps anchor a Jumbo. In this situation, the hunter is also participating as a "stopper", as the game is so close that there may not be sufficient time to let the PH perform that task alone. For all other hunting situations I've been in, a good magazine rifle trumps a double any day. We glow over 2"-4" groups from a double at 100 yards. If we got that kind of performance from a magazine rifle, we'd trash it! A scope makes a hunter much more effective in placing a killing shot. Yes, you can scope a DR, but then you're taking away from the fast, instinctive nature of using a double. And not that I'm an advocate of long range hunting, but when required, how can one possibly profess that a double is even remotely close to being as effective as a bolt rifle? Too much Kool Aid, I think.
As I said, I love double rifles. But I consider hunting with them a bit like bowhunting ...knowing there are better weapons out there for the task, but still choosing to "disadvantage" myself to make the hunt more sporting and enjoyable. Yes, I'll continue to use them, but not because they're more effective or "better" than a magazine rifle, but because I want to.

Who has been assigned to chisel my words into stone?

Here's my 2 cents worth. I LOVE DOUBLE RIFLES and hunting with them. Yes to get a 4 inch group at 100 yards is great and a bolt gun that wouldn't do better than that would be trash. I don't think many people in the heat of the battle can work the bolt on a rifle without taking it off their shoulder. I've watched those same videos where guy are short stroking their bolt guns and looking down at the actions trying to see whats going on. Seen them throwing out live rounds thinking gun is jammed or what ever. I think a double is great if you know how to handle one and in a follow up shot there is nothing faster. Seems like every elephant Craig Boddington shoots frontal he ends up shooting a side brain as the animal turns and he smokes them with the second shot. In the same type of shot with a bolt gun the shooter is looking down at his rifle as the animal runs away. I like a double because you get up close and personal. If it gets hairy you have two quick shots. Reloads aren't slow if you have practiced. On my first buffalo hunt I was using my 470 and a friend was filming. I shot twice and reloaded then fired 2 more. Also moving to get better position at the same time. There were 4 seconds between the first 2 and the second 2 shots. Yes I've shot a double a lot and don't know if that is good or bad but I'm happy.
This is about elephant hunting and double rifles. 25 yards is a long shot on elephant. I've only shot 2 and both were 15 yards which I thought was a long shot. I love doubles!

Well,

I have no experience on this subject ... yet! Elephant in the Caprivi Strip the first two weeks of November and will be using a double.

At the advice of Retreever here, between now and then I'll be practicing sporting clays with my side by side double shotguns (until recently, the only shotguns I've ever used). I want the second trigger to be second nature and moving clays would be good, inexpensive practice.

I am also putting together the components to build a few moving targets to practice on with the double rifles - the goals being a fast yet accurate second shot followed by a reload on the move with at least another one-two punch.

Like Sam, I hope the distance for the first shot to be "trunk length + 6 inches" and the second when the big guy is already dead, front and rear legs neatly folded underneath.

Yup - I hope for the best but plan for the worst thus the practice in the way you expeerience folk have described herein and in books and videos I am memorizing.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I don't think many people in the heat of the battle can work the bolt on a rifle without taking it off their shoulder.

srose

Sorry, disagree, most times I load from the shoulder except with my 505 Gibbs
where the Magnum action and recoil preclude me from doing it).


Your speed on the double is very good.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I don't think many people in the heat of the battle can work the bolt on a rifle without taking it off their shoulder.

srose

Sorry, disagree, most times I load from the shoulder except with my 505 Gibbs
where the Magnum action and recoil preclude me from doing it).


Your speed on the double is very good.

.

Some of the most experienced, living, elephant hunters smile at the notion that one cannot slightly drop the butt of bolt-action rifle while reloading as fast a possible.

I guess the alternative is to poke oneself in the eye with the bolt!

quote:

By the time my PH said reload, I already had.

LOL...exactly...my gun is refilled immediately.

Nothing heavier or more useless than an empty rifle.

It seems almost humerous to me that a PH would even have to say "reload".

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Some of the most experienced, living, elephant hunters smile at the notion that one cannot slightly drop the butt of bolt-action rifle while reloading as fast a possible.

I guess the alternative is to poke oneself in the eye with the bolt!

Will

Not sure I understand what you mean.


Are you saying you can't reload from the shoulder without dropping the Butt
otherwise you'll poke your eye out ????

I've never poked my eye out.

.

As I said earlier: Boom-Boom.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Who has been assigned to chisel my words into stone?

Why bother?
You've probably got it in neon just waiting ot finally be able to bring it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
After using double rifles for over 15 years for game not "normally" hunted with doubles...
[I used them to get good with them before my African Safaris]...

On game like deer, wild pigs, black bear, over bait, and spot and stalk, caribou, turkey coyote, bobcat, skunk, armidillo,beaver,squirrel, most all my plains game in Africa and all my cape buff and elehant....

I have discovered the following, that having 2 immediately avialable shots, for most hunting situations, is far better than having a bolt rifle with a larger magazine.

I feel that the bolt Rifle is the more specialized hunting gun.

It is only better when most shots will be over 300 yards,[ I have killed game at 300 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R] and when hunting in open country where more than 2 shots might be able to be fired at a running animal.

For DG, for ME it is Double Rifles ONLY...

I would feel more comfortable hunting cape buff and elephants with my 9,3x74R double rifle than ANY calibre bolt rifle...

And, as most of you know, I have shot all of my cape buff under 60 yards, closest 12 yards, and most of my elephants under 6 yards.

Mike,
A few AR members were standing next to me when I killed a coyote at 287 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R double, it was filmed. My 300 yard shot on a kudu was filmed as well.

Also all of my cape buff and elephant kills have been videoed. Many AR members have seen the videos...

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by srose:
I don't think many people in the heat of the battle can work the bolt on a rifle without taking it off their shoulder.

srose

Sorry, disagree, most times I load from the shoulder except with my 505 Gibbs
where the Magnum action and recoil preclude me from doing it).



I said I didn't have much use for them, I never said I didn't know how to use one.

Sam