Just a curious note. I've just finished going through all the Sabatti's listed for sale on Gunsinternational.

It appears that 90+ % of the guns still for sale are offered by Cabelas. What does this say for the product?

I know we've had maybe 6-10 happy customners here on AR with the Sabatti's, and probably 10% within the US, what does this say about the product?

Is it worth taking a chance on one? (And I continue to think about one)

Will Cabelas continue to allow full returns for guns that are dremeled or are not properly regulated?

When you look at other DR makes listed for sale within all the sales sites, most are from individuals or are used guns that have been successfully used and then offered for sale.

Is it worth taking the chance 3 years into the Sabatti project?

That is because Cabelas is the only dealer (USSG is the importer) and all new Sabattis sold in the US have to come through them. I am happy with mine and the Dundee Cabelas staff are very professional and very aware of the muzzle grinding thing. Cabelas used to be a big Krieghoff and Blaser and Merkel distributor too but I never see them in Cabelas any more. Oh, if it is "Dremeled" don't buy it; you can see that in the store.

Mike:

A friend of mine just bought a 470. He seems to like it and I shot it as well. I thought it was a good gun. If it shoots well and the muzzles are not ground, heck I say go for it. Just keep in mind that your are not buying a Heym, VC, Krieghoff, Merkel or Chapuis but a low cost, serviceable, working double.

I guess my preference would be to find a nice used gun for a bit more money. For example, there is a nice looking 470 Krieghoff on Guns International for $8900. I would prefer to spend a bit more money for what I regard as a better gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Just keep in mind that your are not buying a Heym, VC, Krieghoff, Merkel or Chapuis but a low cost, serviceable, working double.

I guess my preference would be to find a nice used gun for a bit more money. For example, there is a nice looking 470 Krieghoff on Guns International for $8900. I would prefer to spend a bit more money for what I regard as a better gun.

Hi Dave,

It wasn't so lo.g ago that was said OF " Heym, VC, Krieghoff, Merkel or Chapuis" as low cost, serviceable doubles and that some would prefer to spend a bit more money for what they regard as a better gun.

As you've said, if someone's happy with it, then its a good double. If Sabatti has addressed the issues some have concens with, then more folk will be happy.

It is interesting to note that I have seen ZERO used Sabattis for sale by a private party on any of the internet auction sites. This tells me that most people are perfectly happy with their rifles and the few with issues got their money back from Cabelas. I am not trying to be a cheerleader but mine shoots just fine and there have been NO complaints from the internet experts about the rifles construction, only about the tipping of the muzzles as a shortcut in regulation which is now apparently a thing of the past, lesson learned. Good LucK!

[Quote;}Hi Dave,

It wasn't so lo.g ago that was said OF " Heym, VC, Krieghoff, Merkel or Chapuis" as low cost, serviceable doubles and that some would prefer to spend a bit more money for what they regard as a better gun./QUOTE]

Which is EXACTLY why I did not buy a merkel years ago when I could have bought one for 4K. Time then got away from me and prices continued to climb. Fast forward 25 years and I found a perfectly servicable Sabatti in 450NE for 5k. Bought it, shot it, killed an elephant with it and plan on going back next year for another one. Buy what you can afford then go hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
It is interesting to note that I have seen ZERO used Sabattis for sale by a private party on any of the internet auction sites. This tells me that most people are perfectly happy with their rifles and the few with issues got their money back from Cabelas. I am not trying to be a cheerleader but mine shoots just fine and there have been NO complaints from the internet experts about the rifles construction, only about the tipping of the muzzles as a shortcut in regulation which is now apparently a thing of the past, lesson learned. Good LucK!

You may have a valid point there. I am also glad that your .450 turned out to be a keeper. I have said before, and here again, it is honorable that Cabelas has been willing to fully refund for guns with dremeled barrels or ones that will ot shoot.

I particularly like the weight of the Sabbattis. I think most doubles are too heavy. A 9.5 lb .450 is just about right.

Groete van Suid Afrika.Ek is hier vir drei maans dis jaar. My Sabatti .450 NE is a tack driver. Skiet 'n Buffel met dit verlede jaar. More later with photos. Gets high marks from several knowledgeable gunsmiths here.

Alles is in orde!

Eagle One
.450 NE, .375 H&H Merkle, .45-70
SCI Life
NRA Benefactor

quote:

I know we've had maybe 6-10 happy customners here on AR with the Sabatti's, and probably 10% within the US, what does this say about the product?

They say 90% of statistics are made up and that must be where you got the 10% within the US are happy. Most people refuse to get sucked into the quagmire of the Sabatti discussions. Apparently, I'm not one of them. I can honestly say that 100% of the people I've been in contact with or who have contacted me in regards to Sabattis have been more than happy with what they have. But then, I've only been in contact with like minded people and wouldn't dream of reaching out to those that think otherwise...it would throw my percentages off
The more I think about the 10% in the US being happy, the more I want to buy a lottery ticket. For I must be truly lucky with my Sabatti and buying a ticket, I can be assured of being rich by the end of the week at those odds. It's a wonder Sabatti is still in business with only a 10% happy customer force after 3+ years.
Debates will always rage over differing opinions and it appears I've gotten sucked in yet again. For the record...yes, I have a great gun at a great price. Yes, overall, Sabatti has had issues with how regulation was handled. Yes, things could be improved. Yes, people will continue to voice "beliefs" even if they haven't owned one because they read it somewhere.
NO, we shouldn't go around saying made up statistics we can't back up - people are too gullible to believe because they read it on the internet, it must be true.

I have a Sabatti 500NE and have had great luck with it. My gun had proper crowns and is regulated about as good as any double I own. The only one thats better is my London Sporting Park 450-400 made in 1905.
Now does Sabatti have issues? Yes, my gun had awful sights and the front sight was not tall enough to adjust the rear sight. It was taller than any of the NECG sights available so I could not try other heights. I ended up making a riser block for the front sight and putting a peep sight on the gun. It now shoots to the sights. The recoil pad was junk and I cut stock and replaced the pad with a thicker better one. Overall I'd say these guns a well made but Sabatti is not putting attention to details as far as where the gun shoots and giving the owner room to adjust sights. I don't care if the gun costs $500 or $50000 it should shoot to the sights before it leaves the factory. Other details such as comb height are an issue also. There is not enough drop in these guns and the comb is way too high. That would be fine if stock was made so you can cut the comb to fit the owner. The drop at the toe is too little and if you cut the drop at heel you will end up with a little tiny butt plate that will kick the crap out of you. All Sabatti had to do was make stock just a little bigger so it could be cut to fit just like most doubles have a long LOP so it can be cut to fit the owner.
I love the weight of the gun at 9.5 lbs and I know lots of people think it is way too light. I don't think it is and have no issues with recoil. I handles good and is easy to carry on long hikes. Recover time isn't an issue. I recently took this gun on my Australian trip for buffalo and it performed perfectly. Also I didn't worry a bit about it rusting or getting scratched during the hunt. Humidity where we kept guns at night was horrible and every morning there was a dew on my gun. I'm sure glad it wasn't a H&H. I use my doubles and don't want to have to worry about them.

OK so I will say this about Sabatti doubles, if you don't mind a little tinkering and fitting the gun itself is well made and for the money is hard to beat for a working gun. Yes they need to improve in some areas but for a big bore double I don't think there is a better buy. I've owned quite a few on the more expensive newer doubles and have had issues with most of them. Issues that should have never happened for what I paid for them. This is another reason I like the low cost of the Sabatti. If Sabatti would have done just a little better to start with I don't think they could make them fast enough.
My 500 Sabatti has way over 400 rounds through it without a function or manufacturing problem and I can't say that about my $10000 to $20000 doubles!

Sam

I have owned two of them and both were and are regulated within 2 at 50. I replaced pads on both and filed the rear sights to shallow V. I find the stocks perfect in comb height. The comment about spending a "bit" more and getting another brand is lost on people like me, to whom $4000 is not a "bit". It is damn near twice the cost and is completely out of my ability to pay.

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:

quote:

I know we've had maybe 6-10 happy customners here on AR with the Sabatti's, and probably 10% within the US, what does this say about the product?

They say 90% of statistics are made up and that must be where you got the 10% within the US are happy. Most people refuse to get sucked into the quagmire of the Sabatti discussions. Apparently, I'm not one of them. I can honestly say that 100% of the people I've been in contact with or who have contacted me in regards to Sabattis have been more than happy with what they have. But then, I've only been in contact with like minded people and wouldn't dream of reaching out to those that think otherwise...it would throw my percentages off
The more I think about the 10% in the US being happy, the more I want to buy a lottery ticket. For I must be truly lucky with my Sabatti and buying a ticket, I can be assured of being rich by the end of the week at those odds. It's a wonder Sabatti is still in business with only a 10% happy customer force after 3+ years.
Debates will always rage over differing opinions and it appears I've gotten sucked in yet again. For the record...yes, I have a great gun at a great price. Yes, overall, Sabatti has had issues with how regulation was handled. Yes, things could be improved. Yes, people will continue to voice "beliefs" even if they haven't owned one because they read it somewhere.
NO, we shouldn't go around saying made up statistics we can't back up - people are too gullible to believe because they read it on the internet, it must be true.

Valid point. I was doing some guesstimating on the 10% across the country. I would love to see the data on how many guns they have imported, how many have sold, and how many are on the market. That would give us a better feel.

We sometimes think that all double rifle owners follow this forum, but it's just not so. I would "guess" most double rifle owners do not follow it. And for those who don't, we have no idea whether they are happy with their Sabbati's or not.

When I was younger and made much less than i do today I was the first guy in the US to own the Leica Geovid. Cabelas got the first two, and I back ordered one. I wrote a letter to Jim Cabela and asked if the guarantee would be honored on the Geovid, which at the time cost $4500. He said it would be honored - if i didn't like it, send it back and they would refund my money.

I would be shocked if they didn't honor that guarantee. The money they refund to footwear customers in a week is probably larger than what they spend on Sabbatis in a year.

Cabelas will honor their refund policy. Here is a snapshot of the average DR owner; He doesn't read AR, he buys factory ammo and only shoots a few at a time, right before he goes hunting. The damned thing kicks like hell so he is very satisfied if he can hit a bushel basket at 50 yards, or more likely, 25. He is a happy camper; ergo, any DR, no matter how badly it shoots, will be fine. I have actually seen some of these guys at the range. Somehow, they manage to kill game.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That is because Cabelas is the only dealer (USSG is the importer) and all new Sabattis sold in the US have to come through them. I am happy with mine and the Dundee Cabelas staff are very professional and very aware of the muzzle grinding thing. Cabelas used to be a big Krieghoff and Blaser and Merkel distributor too but I never see them in Cabelas any more. Oh, if it is "Dremeled" don't buy it; you can see that in the store.

The reason the Sabattis are being sold on Guns international is because most who look to that website for double rifles usually know very little about double rifles, and I think many of those rifles offered there are returns, or were dremmeled and are unsalable to an informed double rifle customer.

I'm sure this has cost Cabela's a ton of money, and a real hit to their reputation.

Just because the rifle doesn't show sign of Dremmel grinding doesn't mean it has been properly regulated! Some have shot very well, but it is a $5000 crap shoot that you will get one that is regulated well enough to hit a barn wall from the inside with the doors closed. A double rifle that is not regulated is nothing more than a brand new WALL HANGER!

I wish they had been trouble free rifles, because I would have loved to have bought one at the ridiculously low price of $5K. However I’m not that much of a gambler! For those who got good ones I’m happy for them, but when it comes time to resale the rifle the old Sabatti reputation will rear it’s ugly head again!

The fact is gentlemen, the Sabatti Co. is a shotgun maker, and shotguns are historically regulated in a jig! This can be done because a shotgun has only to place one 30 inch pattern more or less over another 30 inch pattern at 30 yds. I don’t think anyone would want a double rifle that only shot someplace within 15 or 20 inches of the other barrel at 30 yds.

The jig doesn’t work with a double rifle, and Sabatti used the jig method of regulation on those rifles and they maybe got one out of twenty that would shoot properly, the rest were dremmeled to try to salvage the screwed up ones.

Some got dremmeled rifles that shot well, but what happens down the road when the rest of the muzzle end rifling wears a little? My guess is the regulation will go south! To fix these dremmeled rifle properly one needs to cut the barrels back past the dremmeling, and re-regulate the rifle by the moving of the wedges till the rifle shoots properly. That is what the factory should have done, hired a knowledgeable regulator and left the dremmel tool in the tool box! Even if they had to add an additional $1000 to the price that would have saved them from a bad reputation and still been a very cheap double rifle.
..................................................................

Groete Eagle One. Post those photos!

If the price of the Sabbati is important to you then go buy one at Cablelas. Shoot it and if it doesn't regulate take it back for a full refund. Buy another and continue until you find one that shoots to regulation. Fairly easy solution.

465H&H

Exactly, .465. There is no need to fret and worry about their performance and what happened or what should have happened, etc; if you don't like it, take it back. Simple and no gamble at all. Too much drama.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Cabelas will honor their refund policy. Here is a snapshot of the average DR owner; He doesn't read AR, he buys factory ammo and only shoots a few at a time, right before he goes hunting. The damned thing kicks like hell so he is very satisfied if he can hit a bushel basket at 50 yards, or more likely, 25. He is a happy camper; ergo, any DR, no matter how badly it shoots, will be fine. I have actually seen some of these guys at the range. Somehow, they manage to kill game.

I don't think this describes the average double rifle owner. It has been my experience that double rifle owners are very tuned in to the quality of their rifles. Many double rifle guys have to be sure of the quality of their guns. For many of these guys they are used to hunt dangerous game where failure of your rifle is just not an option. However, if Sabatti is your choice, I say go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Cabelas will honor their refund policy. Here is a snapshot of the average DR owner; He doesn't read AR, he buys factory ammo and only shoots a few at a time, right before he goes hunting. The damned thing kicks like hell so he is very satisfied if he can hit a bushel basket at 50 yards, or more likely, 25. He is a happy camper; ergo, any DR, no matter how badly it shoots, will be fine. I have actually seen some of these guys at the range. Somehow, they manage to kill game.

I don't think this describes the average double rifle owner. It has been my experience that double rifle owners are very tuned in to the quality of their rifles. Many double rifle guys have to be sure of the quality of their guns. For many of these guys they are used to hunt dangerous game where failure of your rifle is just not an option. However, if Sabatti is your choice, I say go for it.

Dave,

Again, I'm in agreement with you for the most part. I don't believe most DR owners read or are even aware of AR, but other than that, I agree with you in that most DR owners spend quite a bit of time learning about the different models of rifle. The exception to this is possibly the fellow who is just trying to get into a double for the least cost just to have one without ever planning to take it on Safari. I'd say that is your typical Sabatti owner. Not all, but typical.

I have a 450 NE, that i purchase from CCMdoc who post here on a regular basis. My gun shoots just fine, handles well, and is very pleaing to the eye.

I had a gun smith check if over, and while this was the first Sabatti he had ever come in contact with he was very impressed.

I first became interested in doubles when Cabelas started selling them.The step I took next was Googling DR's and Nitro Express to learn something.And learn I did, the Sabbbati problems put me off for the time being. I have been watching how these particular guns have evolved and hoping that those involved in their marketing would straighten things out. Not all of us can afford the premium that other DR's carry. I looked several times at used Merkels at Cabelas. 8-9 grand + 10% sales tax put it out of range for this retired auto tech.
Now the Sabatti prices have increased about 10 % on the new ones with a change in regulation. I can get a 470 NE with extractors for under 6 grand now. So we will see if this is really a turn for the better. My 45/70 USSG cost me under 800 bucks and will make clean lung shots on a White tail target out to 50 yards and there is a valuable unfilled slot in the market for "field grade" doubles that reliably take game. I would love to be able to purchase an art treasure Euro double gun but I cant, and I'm not envious of those who can. I just appreciate company's that are trying to develop a market I can buy into.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
I first became interested in doubles when Cabelas started selling them.The step I took next was Googling DR's and Nitro Express to learn something.And learn I did, the Sabbbati problems put me off for the time being. I have been watching how these particular guns have evolved and hoping that those involved in their marketing would straighten things out. Not all of us can afford the premium that other DR's carry. I looked several times at used Merkels at Cabelas. 8-9 grand + 10% sales tax put it out of range for this retired auto tech.
Now the Sabatti prices have increased about 10 % on the new ones with a change in regulation. I can get a 470 NE with extractors for under 6 grand now. So we will see if this is really a turn for the better. My 45/70 USSG cost me under 800 bucks and will make clean lung shots on a White tail target out to 50 yards and there is a valuable unfilled slot in the market for "field grade" doubles that reliably take game. I would love to be able to purchase an art treasure Euro double gun but I cant, and I'm not envious of those who can. I just appreciate company's that are trying to develop a market I can buy into.

Still, would it have not been a smarter idea for said company who is trying to make DRs affordable for all to have spent the money on making sure the rifles would, as you say, "make clean lung shots on a White Tail target out to 50 yards" and more by ensuring that the guns performed correctly with proper regulation instead of trying to make a pretty gun with the laser engraving.

In simpler terms, put the $1,000 toward regulating the gun and leave off the engraving. Then you would have a reliable gun that costs the same amount. That would be a great value.

A pretty gun that doesn't shoot straight is just lipstick on a pig!

You are correct, I'm not looking for beauty before function. The guns without the engraving
if shooting to aim would be the best of all worlds. Hopefully they are getting there now. Time will tell.

Question: What is done when "Dremmeling" a DR barrel? I assume grinding of the lands. How does this adjust POA? Maybe a dumb question, but I'm obviously not a DR guy. I did once turn Krieghoff when they offered me a new LH 470 at the SCI convention for about $7,500. Guess I'm just bolt trash.
Brice

I meant POI.
Brice

Brice

Being "bolt trash", let me put it this way (only joking).

You know how damage to the crown of a bolt action rifle can affect where the bullet goes, well dremmelling is doing it in a similar way.

They grind down the lands on one side.

Other factors of course have an effect as well with DR's but that is a brief way to describe it !!!

.

For any of you guys that have the non-dremeled rifles that shoot good.

Take a look at the business end and tell us if you can see the wedge.

I'm curious if they have done this or have figured out a way to regulate with lazers that works better.