I am having Verney-Carron custom build me my next double.

Safari Azur Luxe with upgraded wood from that level - as dark and figured as possible but straight grain through wrist

Teardrops

Shadowline cheekpiece

600 Nitro Express

26" (66cm) barrels

Sights: African three-leaf rear and flip-up day/night front

Moustache receiver

Extended tang/topstrap

Articulated front trigger

Pistol grip cap with reservoir

Stalking safety/intercepting sears

Elephant engraving on"belly"

Steel cap and eyelet on forend

Sling swivels

Requested weight ...

13 pounds (6kg)

6-8 months to completion and I truly hope it is as accurate as my previous V-C 600 Nitro.

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. I hate every last one of you who have gotten me interested then hooked on double rifles.

I think we did warn you that only the the first few shots with a double are free!

Congrats on the new build!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


Now two questions for the troops:
1) H&H fillet - I'm not sure so I'll entertain thoughts
2) Sling swivels - I carried my 11.5lb (loaded at 12.3lbs) 600OK on my shoulder in "African-carry" style. Never used strap. Will I be sorry if I leave swivels off?

Thanks,
Paul

What do you mean by "1) H&H fillet - I'm not sure so I'll entertain thoughts"
specifically the word "fillet"


2. IMHO Yes, I don't use sling on a gun in the bush, but carry one for emergencies.
If you one day need to carry someone or something, you can sling the gun. The alernative
could be to leave it behind !!!

Sling swivels - they don't detract from the gun at all.


Just my HO.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


Now two questions for the troops:
1) H&H fillet - I'm not sure so I'll entertain thoughts
2) Sling swivels - I carried my 11.5lb (loaded at 12.3lbs) 600OK on my shoulder in "African-carry" style. Never used strap. Will I be sorry if I leave swivels off?

Thanks,
Paul

What do you mean by "1) H&H fillet - I'm not sure so I'll entertain thoughts"
specifically the word "fillet"

In Double Don's thread on his "custom-built" 500NE he uses that description. See the photos of his double in this link - you can see how the "Moustache" side reinforcements curvve down under the belly of the lock:

DoubleDon's Beauty

Apparently that is called an H&H style fillet.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
2. IMHO Yes, I don't use sling on a gun in the bush, but carry one for emergencies.
If you one day need to carry someone or something, you can sling the gun. The alernative
could be to leave it behind !!!

Sling swivels - they don't detract from the gun at all.


Just my HO.

Thanks and I appreciate your suggestion and opinion.

In that case, yes, I would get the H&H "fillet"
but without the long trailing moustache !!!!!

Keep it clean like H&H.

I believe that it was also a practical addition to H&H Royals, not just a beauty addition.



Re sling, I think like in the military, only sling the rifle when you have something / someone to carry - or of course, you really have finished hunting and don't need it for DG protection.


.

I agree with 500.....don't use a sling unless on a long trek back to the cruiser....just carry it over the shoulder pointed safely.
Congrats on the VC...I have one in 450/400....very sweet rifle.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I cant wait to see pictures! Hopefully we will met at a future Bubba or DRSS shoot so I can lay my eyes on this beauty to be!! Congrats!

I think standard reinforcing on the action is appropriate for a euro style stock with euro style cheekpiece. I think the curved "mustache" looks appropriate with a more classic style big double that has a "pancake" cheekpiece with a classic shadowline.


Sling swivels. If you have posts installed for removable swivels then they are there if you need them but not obtrusive if you don't. If you don't order it with swivels and you ever decide you want a sling then you will be sorry you didn't take care of it at the start.

How much does the reinforcing / moustache
reinforce the action ?

H&H went with them after the first few years of the 500/450 and up - I was told to bolster the action strength.

Would be interested in people's thoughts on this.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
How much does the reinforcing / moustache
reinforce the action ?
.

I don't know how much but I have been told that it can add considerably to strength. When the gun fires, back thrust from the cartridges works to force the action open. Because the barrels are locked to the lower part of the action, stress works the action at the line where the face meets the water table. The water table is that section of the frame that is covered by the barrels when the action is closed. The amount of metal at the juncture of the water table and the action face is limited because it gets cut away for the barrel lugs.



Adding more metal on the sides of that line increases the ability of the action to withstand back thrust without cracking.



Features like a third bite, crossbolts, doll's head, and the rising bite are supposed to provide an additional barrel attachment point above the water table to help resist the forces working to open the action. There is some disagreement about just how much, if any, such additional attachment systems help.

On the last point first, "There is some disagreement about just how much, if any, such additional attachment systems help."

H&H and I think Purdey's made guns without any third bite,
or a very small one.


On the first point, as I said before, later DR's from H&H had the side bolsters
and as you said, they do strengthen the unit.

IMHO, the Holland "AB" Action is one of the nicest looking actions ever made.

.

H&H has made many guns with a third bite and currently offers a third bite as an option on its 'Royal' models.
Purdey still offers their own version of a rising bite that they originally patented one year before Rigby did their version.

CCMDoc's rifle will be stronger with the mustaches than without.

C'mon Doc, just blurt it out!!

Rich
DRSS store bought, not bespoke...

Totally agree that installing sling swivel hardware is a winner -- just make sure the front one is on the barrel.

I've a 1904-made H&H 500/450 and it does not have the reinforcing. Photo of TR's 500/450 in Dallas' book shows it is not reinforced. Gray suggests that the additional "swell" dates to the 1920s. If I recall, a key early step in ensuring the action did not crack at the water table was to round off what had been a right angle.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
Totally agree that installing sling swivel hardware is a winner -- just make sure the front one is on the barrel.

I've a 1904-made H&H 500/450 and it does not have the reinforcing. Photo of TR's 500/450 in Dallas' book shows it is not reinforced. Gray suggests that the additional "swell" dates to the 1920s. If I recall, a key early step in ensuring the action did not crack at the water table was to round off what had been a right angle.

Regards

Yes, the late 191X's - early 1920's was when I thought they added the side bolsters.

I think you are right re the reason.


.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
C'mon Doc, just blurt it out!!

Rich
DRSS store bought, not bespoke...

Rich,
Growing up in the 60s, many tried to to entice me to try things of which I had no interest.

Now, as then, I remain steadfast in my refusal to "experiment" in any way and certainly not "inhale"

Well, hell, of course it's not "bespoke." Only H&H, David McKay Brown, Jas. W. Purdey & Sons, and Hartmann & Weiss make "bespoke" firearms.

Sheesh. I've always gotta help you guys out on this subject.

CCMDoc,

I did not catch the back ground for the decision to get this second specially
ordered 600 NE from the same maker as your 1st. Did you post that somewhere?
Will you be keeping both, and shooting both, and taking both into the hunting
grounds where they will both inevitably get "marked up"?

Hi Jack

No background on the decision - the usual reason for doing anything with firearms - "just because".

I blame Rusty among many others for welcoming me into the DRSS which is like welcoming me to the edge of Niagra Falls and standing me in a barrel, while "gently" patting me on my back.

Actually, I mostly blame Ken Buch who said to me when I was choosing among the three V-C 600NE doubles he had on hand:
"Well Paul, after you have had your fun with this maybe we can get you a 600 Nitro built just for you."

As far as going with the same gunmaker - well I am VERY pleased with the craftmanship, handling and accuracy of the V-C 600NE I have on hand so really no reason to look elsewhere.

And no, I don't have a need for both - the one I have and the one being built for me. Ken and I have worked something out so that I have but one Verney-Carron 600NE.

As far as taking the custome-built 600NE into the field and getting bumps, dings and scratches - it is being built for exactly that. Such scars are signs of enjoying life to the fullest. I'll do my best to protect my own skin and that of the 600 but wont worry if I or my double return from Africa with a piece of Africa permanently inscribed.

Well thanks very much for that explanation Paul. And the way you put it,
it's as sensible of a decision as any regarding the modern man and a D/R.
I hope your special ordered rifle makes you jump for joy once in hand. And
may it kill quickly all game sought with it!!!!! {By the way my OEHLER 35P
chrono has reached me, so ready when you are.}

Well, my appointment with the fine folk of the Griffin & Howe Shooting School is set for Wednesday. There I will fitted for my new 600NE double.
Believe it or not there is a dress code!
Once we have all the measurements, they're off to Ken then to Verney-Carron.

CCMDOC,

it is refreshing to learn that some companies still have standards. Did they mean to have you wear upper clothing like what you would on Safari?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
CCMDOC,

it is refreshing to learn that some companies still have standards. Did they mean to have you wear upper clothing like what you would on Safari?

Rich
DRSS

Nope - take a look at the site

Hudson Farm

Shirt with collar, khaki pants or shorts - no blue jeans. I was OK wearing professional attire - shirt, tie and dress pants.

Actually, though a very formal and traditional place it was absolutely stunning in its beauty and rich environment. Great opportunity for so many things shooting - far beyond my means to partake in most of it.

I was lucky enough to have their top instructor and gun-fitter taking care of me and he spent a full two hours fitting, measuring and re-doing just about everything imaginable. Then for a few shots at the range to be sure.

Just gotta get myself an ascot, I guess...

That's neat. Are you going to use the "B-word" when it arrives and you post pictures of it? Or just Bemine!

Rich

I like that - "Bemine"

Sounds much like me and my Brooklyn upbringing!

My "bespoke" V-C .577 has been completed but not yet shipped.

I will post pix and details of options when received.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
IMHO Yes, I don't use sling on a gun in the bush, but carry one for emergencies.
If you one day need to carry someone or something, you can sling the gun. The alernative
could be to leave it behind !!!
Sling swivels - they don't detract from the gun at all.
Just my HO.

My thoughts exactly.
I have on more than one occasion had to sling my rifle when helping to drag game carcass, etc. Leave the sling in a day pack.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
As far as taking the custome-built 600NE into the field and getting bumps, dings and scratches - it is being built for exactly that. Such scars are signs of enjoying life to the fullest. I'll do my best to protect my own skin and that of the 600 but wont worry if I or my double return from Africa with a piece of Africa permanently inscribed.

Paul, love your attitude!

My Heym PH in the 500N.E. looks like both Buzz Charlton and Ivan Carter have taken turns abusing it for a season.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
My "bespoke" V-C .577 has been completed but not yet shipped.

I will post pix and details of options when received.

Very excited for you Don - looking forward to the photos.

How long from order to completion?

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
IMHO Yes, I don't use sling on a gun in the bush, but carry one for emergencies.
If you one day need to carry someone or something, you can sling the gun. The alernative
could be to leave it behind !!!
Sling swivels - they don't detract from the gun at all.
Just my HO.

My thoughts exactly.
I have on more than one occasion had to sling my rifle when helping to drag game carcass, etc. Leave the sling in a day pack.

Yeah - have to agree with you both. Hadn't thought about it but I have used my sling as a drag line on more than one occasion myself.
Thanks for the advice

Such a rifle is built for Africa and Africa only. I have seen a fair number of doubles over .500 but have never seen a sling on any of them.

If you need to carry something else....never. the tracker can carry everything else unless I am too badly injured to carry my own rifle, and then he will happily make up a hasty sling out of bark and tie it around the wrist and the barrels and carry it that way...a) it has more panache (if that is the right spelling and I don't care if it is or not you all know what I mean) and b) you will probably have your mind on other things.

Para chord is better than a sling for all tying jobs and dragging jobs and most everything except carrying a rifle

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Such a rifle is built for Africa and Africa only. I have seen a fair number of doubles over .500 but have never seen a sling on any of them.

If you need to carry something else....never. the tracker can carry everything else unless I am too badly injured to carry my own rifle, and then he will happily make up a hasty sling out of bark and tie it around the wrist and the barrels and carry it that way...a) it has more panache (if that is the right spelling and I don't care if it is or not you all know what I mean) and b) you will probably have your mind on other things.

Para chord is better than a sling for all tying jobs and dragging jobs and most everything except carrying a rifle

So are you saying I should have sling swivels on my 600NE or not?

And if you are so badly injured - don't worry, I'll fix you up. The tracker can make a sling out of bark, tie it to your wrists and ankles and carry you while I carry any one of your doubles for you, sling or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Such a rifle is built for Africa and Africa only. I have seen a fair number of doubles over .500 but have never seen a sling on any of them.

If you need to carry something else....never. the tracker can carry everything else unless I am too badly injured to carry my own rifle, and then he will happily make up a hasty sling out of bark and tie it around the wrist and the barrels and carry it that way...a) it has more panache (if that is the right spelling and I don't care if it is or not you all know what I mean) and b) you will probably have your mind on other things.

Para chord is better than a sling for all tying jobs and dragging jobs and most everything except carrying a rifle

All well and good, but not all hunting is done in Africa.

What if he came to Australia and hunted one on one with a PH after Buffalo ?
No great swathe of trackers following us !!!


Better to have it (a sling) available in a bum bag in case needed and the facility
to attach it to the gun there, ready to go than not.


I agree though that Para cord can be very useful, and an emergency sling but for the little weight of a good sling, jesus why not carry one.

.

sic 'em Doc!!
I would rather have it in my day pack and not use it than need it and have to do the bark thing.

Opinions and preferences...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Well, hell, of course it's not "bespoke." Only H&H, David McKay Brown, Jas. W. Purdey & Sons, and Hartmann & Weiss make "bespoke" firearms.

Sheesh. I've always gotta help you guys out on this subject.

Has anyone called Westley Richards to let them know?

Well, a quick update ...

I was very happy with the fit of the "standard" Verney-Carron Azur Safari 600 Nitro Express I had originally. Shouldered nicely and naturally, seemed to fit me well and felt great in my hands. As my custom-built double is coming along, I asked how the "fitted" measurements compared with those on the "standard" double.

Big difference.

In fact, V-C questioned whether these measurements were correct since they were so much different than their standard and any they had cutom-made in the past. I was briefly considering just going with the standard dimensions but Ken Buch properly suggested that if I have it done, I should have it done right. He was 100 percent correct and wont be more than a week's delay to getting it finished.

So, I am off to a second custom-fitter - Thomas Bland & Sons/Woodcock Hills, Inc. on Wednesday of of this coming week. When I was in construction, the mantra was "measure twice, cut once" - and I didn't argue with my bosses/uncles.

The good news is that this slight delay allowed me to:

add teardrops

request a splinter fore-end

Gotta fit right and be a natural extension of "me" if I am going to look as good as Will when I brain that elephant!

Paul,

Can't go wrong with Glenn at Woodcock Hill checking your gunfitting. Learned a lot when I went up there to pick up an imported shotgun. Key will be whether you want the double to fit you like a sxs shotgun (I do for sure).

Regards, Tim

Paul

X2 regarding Glenn at Woodcock Hill.

He's a very interesting, great guy! Besides, you don't have to wear any special attire.

If you're staying the night, I suggest the Orvis Lodge (Glenn can tell you where I'm talking about).

Enjoy yourself!

Hi Tim and Don,

Not sure if Glen will be back from Scottland by tomorrow and if not, who will do the fitting. Its about a 3 1/2 hour drive so I'll be driving up in the wee hours of the morning and back in the evening but I'll keep the Orvis Lodge in mind for the next time.

Thanks,
Paul

Great folk at Thomas Bland & Sons/Woodcock Hill, Inc.

Ann Marie Jones was lovely and a sweetheart and Dan Hartman did the fitting and some gun mounting/positioning/handling instruction. Lovely place, wealth of information, salt of the earth people and impressive gun room.

Well worth the 3 1/2 hour drive each way. I highly recommend these people.

Hoping for a January finish with delivery shortly thereafter ... just tryin' to be patient until then