Guys, I need some help.

I am shooting a Krieghoff, .500/.416. It doesn't have the greatest triggers but when I do my part, it seems to be quite accurate with 400 grain Hornaday RNSPs. The first two shot group that I shot with it at 50 meters from a tripod were quite literally in the same hole. I managed to shoot two more two shot strings, one the bullets impacting about three quarter of an inch apart and another where the second shot halved the first. The problem is that it is shooting too high, about four or five inches above point of aim. Remember now, these are iron sights at fifty meters with sixty-one year old eyes.

Here is my question. Do you think backing off on the powder charge, slowing it down a bit, would lower the point of impact? Now, I know you are asking why doesn't this guy shoot the thing across the chronograph and tell us what his velocity is? I will as soon as we get some good weather up here. I need it to warm up a bit and I need the darn wind to stop blowing.

I am shooting a Redfield target and I have put a stick on three inch red circle in the center. I have been putting the front sight at the bottom of the V and covering the circle with the front sight.

Dave

Get a taller front sight

slowing it down will make it HIGHER -- yes, higher .. you can try it yourself,

the chrono will tell

Have a scope base fitted into the removable blank at the back of the barrel and then install a Talley or NECG peep sight. This is the best cure for "old" eyes and gives you the ability to adjust.

Jeff:

I know that the chrono is the key. I just need some good weather.

In the alternative, I am sure this gun was regulated with 410 Woodleighs. I am going to pick some up and see if that helps.

Dave

jeffe is correct, at least in my experience.

My 450 No2 was shooting a little to low at 100 yards. I dropped my powder charge by one grain, and it moved up my point of imact, and still regulated good.

Longer barrel time is the reason.

Dave,

In my experience, trying to cover the target center makes for tough elevation control. On the other hand, a 6:00 hold makes it easy. So, next time out, try a 6:00 hold with the sight picture looking as if the entire center circle stick-on is sitting on your bead.

BTW, some prefer the bullet's POI to be the top of the bead, some prefer it to be under the bead. Pro's and con's to both.

Jeffe is right about less velocity shooting higher. More bullet weight will also shoot higher either with the same poweder charge or with less. To lower the POI without changing front sight blades you will need more velocity. You need to get your chrono going!

Changing front sight height is simple and no issue, and they should be readily available from Kreighoff or NECG, if it comes to it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Dave,

In my experience, trying to cover the target center makes for tough elevation control. On the other hand, a 6:00 hold makes it easy. So, next time out, try a 6:00 hold with the sight picture looking as if the entire center circle stick-on is sitting on your bead.

JPK

I find that makes a big difference. I also go to the trouble of putting a small round, 1/2 inch white
sticker at 6.00, it then makes it obvious when you are on the POA and more importantly,
makes it easier to maintain the SAME POA for each shot.

Aim lower...

Speed up the load and you will be crossed and shooting lower.

Slow down the load and you will be shooting higher and diverged.

Heavier bullet at same or slower velocity will shoot higher and diverged too. Unlikely to be correctable by heavier bullet at higher velocity within pressure limits.

Sounds like the rifle was regulated and sighted for a "fine bead" or target bead hold (6 O'Clock), if you are holding a combat bead ("coarse bead") centered on the center of the target.

I.E., the rifle is shooting to the top center edge of the bead, instead of the "middle center" of the bead.

I like that.

Do a search on "petulant bully and insolent dweeb" for a rehash of bead terminology, and "The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west."

If you want a combat bead hold, a taller front sight, or the same front blade/post with a bead twice the diameter of the current one sitting on top of that blade/post ... or file the rear sight down.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Speed up the load and you will be crossed and shooting lower.

Slow down the load and you will be shooting higher and diverged.

Heavier bullet at same or slower velocity will shoot higher and diverged too. Unlikely to be correctable by heavier bullet at higher velocity within pressure limits.

Sounds like the rifle was regulated and sighted for a "fine bead" or target bead hold (6 O'Clock), if you are holding a combat bead ("coarse bead") centered on the center of the target.

I.E., the rifle is shooting to the top center edge of the bead, instead of the "middle center" of the bead.

I like that.

Do a search on "petulant bully and insolent dweeb" for a rehash of bead terminology, and "The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west."

If you want a combat bead hold, a taller front sight, or the same front blade/post with a bead twice the diameter of the current one sitting on top of that blade/post ... or file the rear sight down.

Rip,

Ain't that what I said??

jeffeosso,
my hat's off to you sir,at the range today,I was trying to develop loads for my CZ O/U 458win mag,after trying several loads,all of them printing high & me trying to slow them down,I went the other way,I speeded up my loads,the p.o.i changed dramatically with only a few grains of powder added,& almost reasonable groups,I for one would'nt mess with the sights but rather look at adjusting my loads just as N E 450 No 2 discovered earlier as well!

Bill,
Glad it worked out for you!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
jeffeosso,
my hat's off to you sir,at the range today,I was trying to develop loads for my CZ O/U 458win mag,after trying several loads,all of them printing high & me trying to slow them down,I went the other way,I speeded up my loads,the p.o.i changed dramatically with only a few grains of powder added,& almost reasonable groups,I for one would'nt mess with the sights but rather look at adjusting my loads just as N E 450 No 2 discovered earlier as well!

So true regarding messing with the load to try to shoot toPOA. But there are limits, and when you've reached one, you will still need to change front blade or bead height. Which is no troble at all.

That is also why a chrono is needed, to make sure you are within limits - up and down.

JPK

JPK,
I agree with you on the use of a chronograph & limits on what can be achieved within safe reloading boundaries,I would not dream of developing any loads without knowing how fast they were going or of projected pressures generated,however,I am on my fourth double rifle now,all my friends shoot DR's as well,I have yet to see any sights being messed with,there is a learning curve to reloading for DR's & I am still learning,to me that's the fun & mystery of getting into guns with two barrels!

Damn, twenty-seven degrees this morning with a 35 MPH wind and more snow. I am never gonna get to chronograph this thing!

I called Lee Precision on Friday. I was trying to order a case length gauge to trim my cases. They said it would be back ordered for six to nine months! This is just crazy.

make one ...
ask them what the thread is on the stanard one, and get a bolt of that thread .. screw it in, cut off the head, adjust for length and harden...

how do i harden? trim and polish, get glowing red hot and dunk it in tranny fluid.. smells better than oil, to me

Jeff:

I think that I am just going to get an RCBS trimmer. I have always used Lee case Lee trimmers to trim my cases because they worked so well. You just put the shell holder on and electric screw driver, lock in the case and use the case length gauge and viola, perfect trim in no time. However, Lee only makes trimming tools for the more common calibers. Other stuff (.416 Rigby, .404, .500 Jeffery, etc.) all has to be custom ordered. It's not expensive to custom order the trimmers. You just need to give them the trim length and the bullet diameter. A couple of years ago they would have one to you in thirty days or so but since the run up to and the election, it has just gotten crazy getting reloading stuff or components. I talked to the lady at Graf & Sons and she told me that they are working six days a week and are still ten days behind on orders. President Obama's election just panicked the gun owning community. I am not so worried about our President as I am all the shootings we have had in the USA in the last month... I think its been like 30-40 people killed. That cowardly bastard who killed the three cops didn't even have the decency to kill himself. A wile ago, we had a kid walk into a mall in Omaha and just start shooting with an SKS. The world is just going nuts. I NEVER thought I would feel this way and I know it is heresy to say here but maybe we do need to take a look at some of our gun laws to try and do more to keep guns out of the hands of some of the mentally unstable people.

Dave

I've read that the "proper hold" was full bead
covering the POI. Do you suppose that some
manufacturers regulated for a 6:00 hold?

Not in the sense of a "six o'clock hold" in pistol shooting, where you would sight to hold at 6:00 and POI would be center of bull several inches higher than the top of the front blade.

I'm advocating here using a 6:00 hold simply to better control elevation since covering a round target center with a round bead leads to difficulty determining whether your hold is true, whereas holding at 6:00 on the round target makes it easy to see that you're hold is at the bottom of the target circle, and not too high or too low. The intent is just to control for the hold, to see if the rifle really is shooting high. (I gather that 500Nitro is advocating using white tape to enhance contrast so that any low hold, below the bottom of the target circle, is very evident.)

If your question was meant to ask, "were some double rifles regulated so that POI was at the top of the bead rather than under the bead?" I would have to say yes, since many were bespoke and it is more than likely that some buyers prefer the top of the bead POI.

Personally, I'm indifferent whether a rifle's POI is at the top of the bead or under it, since, at the ranges I'll shoot at DG with open sights, its a moot question, but I think the top of the bead POI leads to easier accurate shooting.

JPK