I know, I should have listened.
I bought a sabatti 450/400 from (of course) cabelas about two years ago. Heard about the dremel regulation, chuckled to myself; no dremel marks on my pristine, virgin baby.
Well, finally got to try the damn thing out this spring (cant bring myself to call it "her")
barrels crossing at 25 yds by 6 inches!
Tried hornady factory loads, all kinds of hand loads (imr 4831 76 to 82 gr, with hornady dgs 400 gr bullets)No luck!
My question:
should i try to return it; or try increasing powder charges to bring the batrrels together?
I do reload.
My impression is the modern steels and construction of the sabatti will tolerate higher than normal 450/400n pressures.
Whats the nconsensus? keep trying for a load or give it up and try to return it to cabelas?

I would return it,these guns just do not have a good track record,put the money towards a decent gun that you know will shoot.

I agree with Bill. Take it back. By the way, if the barrels are crossing, you would need to slow them down, not speed them up. Crossing by 6 inches at 25 yards would be out of limits in my opinion on being able to slow them down enough to straighten them out and still have adequate velocity.

Now, one other item before you chunk it. You only mentioned shooting Hornady bullets. If you reload, you might try a few other bullet types before giving up. I would suggest starting with the CEBs or North Forks. You mention already trying different loads, but did you use different powders? Here is an example:

I posted extensively on the troubles I had getting my Chapuis 9.3X74R to shoot to regulation with the scope mounted. I was and am a TSX fan. The 286 TSX bullets shot to match the factory target without the scope. But with the scope on, they crossed 8" at 50 yards IIRC. They were off the target at 100 yards. Could not slow them down enough to keep them from crossing. So I went to the CEB BBW#13 with the same load of IMR 4064. They crossed 2" at 25 yards. Changed to IMR 4831 and they began 8" spread apart. I was able to increase the powder load until I maxed out with a 4" spread apart. Went back to the IMR 4064 and added just a little bit of filler and they shot to regulation at 50 yards with that combo.

Point being, just because they cross with the Hornady's and different AMOUNTS of powder, it doesn't mean there is no magic load that will make your gun shoot. If anything other than Sabatti, I would say keep experimenting. But with their track record, I don't know. I'm not trying to be down on the name but I've just heard of so many other guys saying the Sabatti's would not shoot well with anything other than the factory Hornady's. If yours will not even shoot that load, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble to try and find out. But then again, I don't know if Cabelas would be willing to take it back if you purchased it 2 years ago!

Yes, fixing a 6" cross at 25 yards would require breaking the barrels and re-soldering.

How are you holding it? Are you letting it recoil freely, or are you using a lead sled (I am sure you know how to shoot a DR; I am just trying to cover all the potential bases.) I don't know how they will view the 2 year thing.

I was told 30 days was the time I had to shoot and return one. All you can do is ask.

I think the 30 day return is for when you buy a used firearm

We should make this a Sticky.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
We should make this a Sticky.

No need. Another Sabatti victim will pop up in a week or two and we'll start right where we left off here when this thread dies!

Most of these issues could have been taken care of if details were looked at more carefully. Some folks knew there were issues and wanted to fix them,it would have cost a few bucks more but would have been a serviceable double. Some folks were looking at a slam dunk on the bottom line. Now they have some good 4k-5k boat anchors.

Ed

While still others of us are quite happy and have a reliable rifle at a price that we could afford! (Thats mine laying behind the ear in the picture to the left)

I just came from local Cabelas. They have several new guns in 470 caliber and the muzzles look perfect.Definite sharp detail at the crown and they are $500.00 more than before.$5499.00 for extractors and $5999.00 for ejectors. And you've got 30 days to shot and return it according to the sales rep. Did not talk to a manager.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
While still others of us are quite happy and have a reliable rifle at a price that we could afford! (Thats mine laying behind the ear in the picture to the left)

Well said

Emron:

Todd Williams is right. If your barrels are crossing you need to slow your load down, not speed it up. Hornady factory ammo would not shoot in my 470 either. It was going to fast and crossing by several inches at 50 meters. I started loading my own in in no time came up with a great load. It now shoots perfectly. Do you know what ammo the gun was regulated with? What powder/ bullet combination are you using? Do you have a chronograph? I'll bet with a little bit of coaxing we can get it shooting.

Many thanks all, especially Todd Williams and Dave Bush for ther valuable suggestions. Cabelas salesman was unhelpful; "take it to sabatti, company policy"; still waiting to talk to manager. Interestingly, rifle came with a perfect regulation target, and regulation was with Hornady ammo per Cabelas.
For the record, shooting was done freehand off a standing rest I built. I also tried from a bench rest with a 25 lb lead sled, when I couldnt believe the results; no change in impact with lead sled vs standing rest.

Heres my plan; feel free to comment
1.Try to get Cabelas to take the rifle back- only about 30-40 rounds have been fired - but i suspect this will not work as too much time has passed since purchase, even though I know the Gun Library manager personally and have been a REALLY good customer.

2. Try different bullets and powders: Northfork, CEB, Woodleigh. Using a chronograph, I was getting only about 2050 from the factory ammo, so slowing down Hornady bullets most likely wont work

3. Remove scope. I put it on just for added accuracy, dont expect to use it in the field. If that changes the regulation, great.

I must say, other than the regulation problem, the rifle is very nicely built. Will need a little customization re LOP and recoil pad, replacement of front sight, but of course only if regulation is possible

Thanks all

It's an expensive artifact if it won't shoot.They are hard case about backing them. 30 days, that it, at my Cabelas.My club just opened our range to high power rounds so I'm slowly getting into DR's.There have been a small # here who have had regulation issues with expensive guns so you want to shoot a new one soon after it arrives so issues can be handled right away.
The new Sabatti's that have just arrived are 10% higher priced and the muzzles look clean and sharp.They have visibly changed the way they finish off the barrels. Whether they all shoot to aim will remain to be seen.

Jumpin Jimminy..... YES, first thing I would try is pull that darned scope off and give it another try with the regulation ammo. If you have a good factory target with that ammo, my guess is that the scope is what is throwing off your gun. On some doubles, a scope can really affect regulation. Just ask Todd. He had a gun that was shooting lights out until he put a scope on it and then he had to start all over again.

Didn't see the scope mentioned in previous posts by you - tear it off. Many have long stated that adding a scope can affect accuracy and throw off the regulation. If it shoots that same way with irons, you're in trouble but it might surprise you what removing the scope might do. Myself, I found no difference in regulation with mine when going with a small footprint scope like the Doc Optic.

Oh, yes, remove the scope and try again. SOMETIMES, often, but not always, the added mass of the scope (are you using a heavy German one?) will affect the muzzle jump and flip enough to affect regulation, and it doesn't take much. And crossing is the classic symptom.

Yep, the scope made my rifle cross when it was shooting exactly to regulation without it.

I don't know what you're complaining about. Perfect rifle for buffalo at 22-24 yards.

Highly specialized piece, that.

You have got to be one busy guy to wait two years,then pop on a scope and go bang. As you were advised the IMR 4831 works well. A rather well respectet English Firm regulates their double 470 NE using N160 powder 107 grains. The powder provides good velocity with low pressures which is the key to keeping them on the face. Never fired a double with a scope, somehow that seems not on unless one has serious vision problems.

I also may assure you that it is like rocking horse droppings to find any double S/S that is not buggered by installing a scope.

Gents:
I keep hearing negative reports of the Sabatti. I have photos of my site and they look like nice doubles. Tell me two things: are they OK or just junk and, does Cabelas stand by them or give the run around?
Thanks and cheers,
Cal

quote:

are they OK or just junk

Cal, there are quite a few of us out there that stand by our Sabattis. I am one of them. Yes, the recoil pad is a POS and the POI for me was not the same as the regulation target, but I have corrected all that for relatively a few bucks. A Pachmayr pad and a new rear express sight got me what I wanted. I recently added a Doc Optic and only have a few shots with that on, but love the rifle. The fit was perfect, it shoulders very nicely, and shoots well. For the money, I could not be happier. It opened the doors to doubles for me and is allowing me to take it to Africa and pursue elephant and buffalo. Something I probably would not have done if looking to put out $10K for a double. There have been issues with ground muzzles and the way things have been handled in the past, but knowing the facts up front and being aware of what to look for are part of the buying process. I can't tell you how it compares to a Merkel or anything else, but I can tell you, I would consider buying another if I saw the need to.

cabellas will likely tell you to call sabati .. 2 years is likely outside of a grace period

The Sabatti is fantastic value for money!

Removed scope
Factory ammo still crosses at 25 yds by 6 inches
However;
Using RL 22 and Barnes solids, crossing is reduced to 3 inches at 50 yds; almost acceptable
Will continue experimenting with loads. NF and CEBs on order.

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
The Sabatti is fantastic value for money!

If you have enough of it that a $5k gamble doesn't matter to you!

Again, there is absolutely NO gamble; I have not heard of any instance in which Cabelas will take back any rifle you are not happy with. Provided you send it back to them within a reasonable amount of time; assume that is 30 days.

Try North Fork Bullets 500 grain solids or cupped (I have yet to try the cupped). Using Vit. N160 Powder and 104 grains, in the .470 producing 1 inch groups. Velocity was 2147 right and 2140 left. Better than factory off the sticks. The powder also produces much less pressure. I believe I stated 107 gr somewhere but they did cross. The pressure testing was by the Birmingham Proof House. Lay off the lead sleds they have ruined many a stock.

We found one stock which was not bedded properly. We removed the stock, smoked the head easily removed the hi spots, used Brownells glas bedding and applied a light coating of bedding. Tightend the stock up, let it dry properly and this trick worked with the end results being good groups using factory ammo. I have no idea if this gentleman loads his own or not. This is a problem which we have found not only with the Sabatti. There also have been occassions where the stock with rifles which use through bolts have not been tight, simply tightening the stocks properly has worked. Also make certain that the barrels are properly cleaned. We have also found the North Fork bullets make the barrels light years easier to clean.

I shall contact my friend when he returns to the UK and ask him what they use to regulate and send to proof their 450/400 and share that with you.

WOW
If I were a gunsmith and could regulate DR's I would make a fortune just working on Sabatti,s
Maybe we can get a loan from Obama to start a new business.
Larry

Not all can afford a collection of guns costing upwards of 10 grand each. That's why there is such an interest in the Sabatti line. As I noted earlier The newly arrived 400- 500 cal. guns at Cabelas are visably different and if they all start shooting to aim the jokes will stop and the exclusivity of the DR club will open up. A good looking new 470/500 NE at 5500.00 that shoots like a high $ gun will quiet the criticism, and it's coming. Then who will be the "fool and his money?"

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Not all can afford a collection of guns costing upwards of 10 grand each. That's why there is such an interest in the Sabatti line. As I noted earlier The newly arrived 400- 500 cal. guns at Cabelas are visably different and if they all start shooting to aim the jokes will stop and the exclusivity of the DR club will open up. A good looking new 470/500 NE at 5500.00 that shoots like a high $ gun will quiet the criticism, and it's coming. Then who will be the "fool and his money?"

And what is going to happen to all the old guns, that folks have already been taken on?

What a way to do business!!

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Not all can afford a collection of guns costing upwards of 10 grand each. That's why there is such an interest in the Sabatti line. As I noted earlier The newly arrived 400- 500 cal. guns at Cabelas are visably different and if they all start shooting to aim the jokes will stop and the exclusivity of the DR club will open up. A good looking new 470/500 NE at 5500.00 that shoots like a high $ gun will quiet the criticism, and it's coming. Then who will be the "fool and his money?"

Lilguy,

If the guns shoot to regulation as they should, there will be no jokes about them. Then, and only then, will they be a true value. Problem is, this should have been the case from day 1. Unfortunately, by cutting corners, they have already built their reputation. Yes, some got rifles that shoot but many did not. Even if they get the regulation issue sorted out correctly, their market value will always be tarnished. The mold of public opinion has been cast and I'm not sure the criticism will ever be completely silenced. There will always be the perception of "What other corners were cut?".

But many, like myself, don't purchase a double rifle with the intent of reselling them at a latter date. I typically buy guns that I intend to hang onto for the rest of my life, so resale value is not a large consideration for me. I have come close to purchasing one of these guns a few times. I may still. But I would gladly spend the extra $500 or $1,000 to know I'm getting a proper rifle. But therein lies the rub. Pay a little more for a proper rifle and all of a sudden, you are into the Merkel, Chapuis, Kreighoff price range again. We are back to the "get what you pay for" scenario. Like it or not, the nature of a big bore double rifle just doesn't lend itself to cheap production. It's not a snob thing. Getting it right just entails certain things that have an associated cost of production and subsequent retail price.

Try some RL 15 powder with those 400gr bullets.

Start with 68 grains.

If RL 15 will work, in your double, somewhere between 68 and 73 grains should regulate properly.

If it does not regulate with Hornady factory, your IMR 4831, or RL 15, it is the gun...

Here is a question, does anybody know how many rounds Sabati fires to regulate one of their doubles???