Is peep sights/ghost a better aiming system then "traditional" sights on rifles?

I think so..

But not for double rifle enthusiasts?

In my opinion is because they are not as fast as the traditional open V sight.

If the gun fits and you practice enough with it, I think they are as fast as the open V.

Dave

I think the reason is they do not fit the image expected.

In theory the express sight is faster but I don't think they are nearly as accurate, esp. if the rear V has no flats on top. I imagine the flats were disposed of because moon sights only work on the assumption the normal bead is pulled hard down in the V. The covering moon sight should shoot to a similar point if used the same way but would be too high to line up with flats, without losing the bottom of it.


So, what's wrong with all that? Well, pressing a bead into the bottom of the V is much harder than just levelling it with a flat - and, when you're in a great hurry, this discipline tends to be forgotten.

I've fired too high at a deer and buffalo on second shots and believe a ghost ring peep would give better results and be little slower, assuming the stock fits the shooter. Westley Richards supplied a peep sight on a rifle intended for lion hunting, IIRC, and if Youtube can be believed, they charge pretty fast.

Except for the Greener side safety, a tang sight would have to be fitted around the traditional tang safety button that is seen on most hammerless doubles and would interfere a bit with hammer doubles.
I do agree peep sights are faster and more accurate. I loved them in my Winchester days. However, they seem out of place on a double but I have seen a few--more so on European doubles. (I just sold a Scherping double in .500-450 with such a sight).
Cal

They are not faster. In fact Taylor addresses them in his book as "they might get you killed" when it comes to DG.

Cal told me in secret that peep sights are for better accuracy, but since a DR usually shoots barn door-sized groups anyway, why bother :-)

quote:

DR usually shoots barn door-sized groups anyway, why bother :-)

aha - we have an admission that biebs can only hit a barn door

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Cal told me in secret that peep sights are for better accuracy, but since a DR usually shoots barn door-sized groups anyway, why bother :-)

Depends on the size of the barn door!

What a turn off a double with video game sights in Africa is-IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
They are not faster. In fact Taylor addresses them in his book as "they might get you killed" when it comes to DG.

We are talking about apples and oranges here. A peep sight with a small diameter hole is not fast at all. A large ring aperture "ghost ring" with a white line square front post is a whole other system. The ghost ring, large aperture and square front post with a white line is about the fastest non optical sighting system that can possibly be used. Not to mention a thin ring, large aperture sight covers less of the target than any other iron sighting system. ghost ring sights did not exist in Taylor's day they are a fairly new thing. When Taylor talks about "peep sights" he is not taking about a ghost ring.

Something like this.


http://www.gunblast.com/Ashley_Ghost_Ring.htm

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Depends on the size of the barn door!

Todd, that's not a doll house, is it???? Nice job!

I'll agree with Shoot-a-way on this one.


Dutch

Is it because double rifle shooters are cross-eyed?

I quite like the way H&H fitted the Lyman peep to some double and single rifles.

Must find a photo.

A large aperture peep sight is FAST. And accurate.

I maintain that this arrangement on my .505 Gibbs is faster than any express sight. Why? Because with an aperture rear sight you don't have anything to align with the front sight, you simply look through the aperture and place the front sight bead or blade where you want to hit.

Rather than having three objects to bring into focus, front and rear sights and target, you have only two, for all practical purposes the same as with a scope.

Of course absolute, rather than relative, speed depends on stock design and fit and how well the rifle "catches aim".



Why are aperture sights seen so seldom on British double rifles? For the same reason that scopes are seen so seldom, the dead hand of tradition.

It's the same dead hand which prefers side by side configuration to over and under. Of course, this applies chiefly to British made double rifles. Over and unders and scopes are the accepted norm on the continent, and attaching an aperture sight to a claw mount base presents no problem at all.

Why do I have express sights on my rifle? Simply because the rifle will eventually be sold and the potential buyer may be more tradition minded than I. I don't want the price my heirs realize to reflect my opinions to the point of possible devaluation. This rifle also has a Leupold Vari-X III 1.5-5X in a Smithson scope mount as a further reflection of my taste.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
I quite like the way H&H fitted the Lyman peep to some double and single rifles.

Must find a photo.

This H&H has the peep recessed into the top tang which is unusual for a 500/465.
I have seen a few 500/465 "India" models with the little peep in the rib just fore of the breech which IMO is the best type of peep on a double although the one above does have the advantage of actually adjusting for distance.

http://www.mwreynolds.com/HTML...nd465Royal19291.html

Best for me is a square front about 1/8". A rear 3/16-1/4" hole in a THIN ring which your eye doesn't notice [that's the ghost part ] With properly fitted stock your eye automaically centers your eye on the peep.It must be close to your eye, not way out on the barrel.
YES, it's fast and accurate !

xausa--You clearly have no idea how to use express sights. It is a medical impossibility for the eye to focus on THREE things at once. The wide "v" express rear sight and an appropriate bead or post front is the fastest sight set up there is. On top of that, a "v" notch and blade is highly accurate. I consistently hit gallon milk jugs at a quarter mile with open barrel sights and traditional cast lead paper patched bullets with my Sharps. There are posters here on this forum that have seen me do it.

You just have to learn how to shoot and learn how to use your eyes.

I have never used a double with a peep sight but I will coment regarding speed of such sights. The proper way to use the peep sight is to focus on the target. Alignment is essential. The front sight, whether bead, blade, or post, must be centered within the fuzzy circle made by the rear aperture. Once the front is centered in the rear the rifle will shoot to whatever the front sight is on. With practice and using a properly fitted rifle it is very easy to mount the rifle and have the front sight centered in the rear automatically, by second nature. Once that familiarity is achieved, sight alignment takes no more time then it takes to bring the rifle into firing position. With this "natural point of aim" all that remains is to focus on the target. The only non-optical sight faster, though considerably less precise, is a single bead on a shotgun.

The traditional express sight is also very fast. It too requires centering of the front sight into the proper point of the rear sight. However, because the express sight is much further away from the head and eye than the peep sight, it is much more difficult to achieve an automatic and repeatable "natural point of aim". As a result, no amount of practice will make placing a shot with an express sight faster, with the same amount of practice, than placing a shot with a peep sight. But it is fairly easy to learn to place a faster aimed shot with a peep sight than with an express sight.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I maintain that this arrangement on my .505 Gibbs is faster than any express sight. Why? Because with an aperture rear sight you don't have anything to align with the front sight, you simply look through the aperture and place the front sight bead or blade where you want to hit.

Rather than having three objects to bring into focus, front and rear sights and target, you have only two, for all practical purposes the same as with a scope.

Of course absolute, rather than relative, speed depends on stock design and fit and how well the rifle "catches aim".



Why are aperture sights seen so seldom on British double rifles? For the same reason that scopes are seen so seldom, the dead hand of tradition.

It's the same dead hand which prefers side by side configuration to over and under. Of course, this applies chiefly to British made double rifles. Over and unders and scopes are the accepted norm on the continent, and attaching and aperture sight to a claw mount base presents no problem at all.

Why do I have express sights on my rifle? Simply because the rifle will eventually be sold and the potential buyer may be more tradition minded than I. I don't want the price my heirs realize to reflect my opinions to the point of possible devaluation. This rifle also has a Leupold Vari-X III 1.5-5X in a Smithson scope mount as a further reflection of my taste.

Sorry for the hi-jack (off topic) but this is one beautiful rifle!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
xausa--You clearly have no idea how to use express sights. It is a medical impossibility for the eye to focus on THREE things at once. The wide "v" express rear sight and an appropriate bead or post front is the fastest sight set up there is. On top of that, a "v" notch and blade is highly accurate. I consistently hit gallon milk jugs at a quarter mile with open barrel sights and traditional cast lead paper patched bullets with my Sharps. There are posters here on this forum that have seen me do it.

You just have to learn how to shoot and learn how to use your eyes.

sharpsguy,

Thank you for the lecture. I reread my post and nowhere could I find a place where I referred to the need to focus on all three things at the same time.

Any competitive pistol shooter, which I once was, knows that there is a need to constantly shift focus back and forth between front sight, target and rear sight, with the emphasis on the front sight.

As far as long range shooting is concerned, I have more than once put all twenty of my record shots in the seven inch ten ring on the NRA 600 yard high power target, with the majority of the shots in the three inch "X" ring. This was accomplished with a receiver sight.

I have also put four shots in a charging rhino and four shots in a running Cape buffalo, using my .505 SRE and a Lyman 48 receiver sight with the aperture removed. In the case of the buffalo, three of the shots could have been covered with a playing card.

Grenadier,

It is really unnecessary to concentrate on centering the front sight in the rear aperture when shooting at close range. The eye tends to center the front sight in any case.

cal,

The rifle was built for me to my specifications by Lon Paul on a Granite Mountain double square bridge action. It is the pride of my gun room.

I have had the double rifle dovetailed lengthwise to take a inserted peep sight held in the dovetail with a retainer spring and ball..

I found it the fastest sight I have ever used and accuracy was improved by at least and inch in group size..I use a ghost ring with at least a .125 hole...it enables you to just point and shoot in one easy movement as the partridge post front sight automatically centers. It eases shooting with both eyes wide open..

Having used both extensively, I opt for the inserted peep..I still have the barrel mounted rear sight, but cut the one standing off to clear the peep vision..I use the two down leaves for back up and only in emergencies but have yet to need them.

I believe if everyone would give up a tad of tradition and try the peep, they would never go back to using the existing irons.

Not saying the existing irons are not good, they do the job required, and I have no complaint against them on any gun, in fact all my rifles of any kind have them, just that the peep or receiver sight is the better option IMO

Even on my bolt action rifle I prefer Talley QD rings and a Talley peep sight that connects to the rear Talley base combined with the British type barrel band front sight with gold faced partridge and barrel swivel...Its a neat set up and I keep that little peep in my cartridge belt that has a pockets specifically for the peep or one could keep it in the grip cap.

quote:

Grenadier,

It is really unnecessary to concentrate on centering the front sight in the rear aperture when shooting at close range. The eye tends to center the front sight in any case.

I just said it a different way, "With practice and using a properly fitted rifle it is very easy to mount the rifle and have the front sight centered in the rear automatically, by second nature. Once that familiarity is achieved, sight alignment takes no more time then it takes to bring the rifle into firing position. "

I will also mention that in match shooting the focus is only on the front sight, the target being a blurred blob. But that isn't very practicable when shooting game.

Sorry I thought you were talking about those other sights. I here peep sights are good.I have witnessed them being very accurate.I am told that they are also fast and allow for a good view of the target when aiming.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Here is one of my rifles.

I like that. I would remove the rear sight and replace it with a plug to match the rib and go with the peep. Nice.

xausa--Go back and read your post again. The second paragraph states that with experss sights there are three things you have to bring in to focus. The front sight, the rear sight, and the target. However the peep sight only requires two--the front sight and the target.

That certainly appears to me that you are saying you have to focus on all three.

I once was in a fun shooting competition with a PH at the end of a hunt and he was using a peep and we were both shooting Lotts.He was a very strong fellow and had shooting training.We shot at 25 yds for speed and accuracy.I won the encounter and I remember the look on the trackers faces after I shot and they saw my target.I was shooting a Ruger with express sights.At 25yds there is nothing to focus or look through.It is express all the way.If one gets good enough that could be extended to 50yds.

The peep sight is best for long range shooting,IMO.I think it has proven itself there.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xausa:






Sorry for the hi-jack (off topic) but this is one beautiful rifle!
Cal

No Kidding. Beautiful and classic lines. It stands in stark contrast to those Blaser thingys.

That IS a beautiful rifle. No question about it.

How many PHs do you see with peeps?,,

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
How many PHs do you see with peeps?,,

How many PH's do you see who are firearms experts? Mine certainly wasn't. He was an excellent organizer, who knew how to run a safari and keep the staff performing at a top-notch level, but he had a William Evans .470NE which I never saw him use effectively.

Here is a receiver sight produced by Recknagel in Germany, which can be fitted to the rear base of a claw mount.

That Recknagel peep sight may be made in Germany, and is probably an expensive piece of equipment, but it is a functional disaster. It is almost as if it is designed to distort and screw up your sight picture. To sell something like that for a dangerous game rifle is almost criminal.

And that actually illustrates my point. People don't know how to use their eyes, and manufacturers apparently don't know how to make things that work. As a result there is a lot of equipment as well as information in use that is nothing other than counter productive. Some of this garbage could get a man killed.

I guess that most PH`s grow up in countries that have a rich hunting heritage.The kind of rifles used and how they are set up comes from years of trial and error.I think that if peeps were better on rifles for the kind of hunting done in that country it would be no secret.

I hunted in Kenya and Tanzania with Ker, Downey and Selby Safaris. My PH was born in Kenya ahd had spent his life there. The first time he shot at an animal with his double rifle while guiding me was at my first elephant.

The elephant was on a raiding mission in a sisal plantation. He was placidly chewing on sisal leaves when my first shot hit him, a side brain shot. He immediately went down, but then struggled to get up. I emptied my .505 into him and the PH fired both barrels of his .470 NE. One of my bullets had penetrated the skull entirely and was found in the far side eye socket. Where the PH's bullets went was not determined.

I complained to the PH about his intruding on what I considered my legitimate prerogative, but he pointed out that we were standing only a few hundred yards from the boundary of the Amboseli Game Reserve, and if the elephant had managed to make it that far, there was no way we could have recovered it.

The only other time he fired his double rifle was when he was charged by a rhino. I was standing to one side and had a clear broadside shot, hitting him first in the neck and then as he turned to depart, twice in the shoulder. I delivered a parting shot up his rump, to no effect.

The PH, who was facing in the opposite direction when the charge began, did not fire until the animal was retreating. One shot went into the other side of the rump and keyholed, with virtually no penetration, the other glanced off the rhino's horn, mercifully without doing serious damage.

In eleven weeks of hunting, those were the only two times he fired a rifle.

xausa,it must have been something to roam around in the African bush back then.Have you written about your adventures?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
xausa,it must have been something to roam around in the African bush back then.Have you written about your adventures?

Only sporadically, in posts like the one above, here, and on Nitro Express.

This is the rhino in question. He was intruding on private land, chasing cattle and the cattle herders, one of whom is the fellow on the far right with the hat.

He had found a way over the game ditch separating the ranch from the Aberdares Wildlife Refuge and was taking advantage of it, coming over by day and retiring by night.

The landowner had already contacted the game department to request that he be destroyed.

The bullet hole from my first shot is clearly visible in the neck.