Eagle one

So we agree then.

It's not internet Overblown or Mass Hysteria,
just not accepting poor standards - and if that means myself and others have to get on a forum and beat the drum, so be it.

In some ways it is protecting the newbies to DR's who wouldn't know unless this was the case.

And clad to hear Cabelas read the forum, I hope Sabs do as well because they need to. I reckon some people on here can regulate a DR better than some of the one's they have sold. I know a few gunsmiths here in Aust who can.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Well Nigel isnt it clear it helped the beer money crowd indugle in the fantasy of being the great white hunter while in the deer stand..

Now it's been reduced, again I think, to schoolyard taunts.

No it was the market demographic they targeted..They put out something cheaper so the dreamer wouldnt hold on to their 5k longer to save for another brand.

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Just so I'm clear........are folks wanting to return rifles they haven't even fired just because of what they've read in this forum?

Cabelas has sold hundreds of these rifles. We have heard about a dozen or so....

Are we victims or "Internet Overblown"

Have to ask, how do you know they sold hundreds? And how many were returned? Hell, I don't have a clue.

The Sabatti's are interesting. When they first come out I was very intriqued and looked at them often wondering how much it would cost to restock one to a lefty. I was very happy to see a double being produced at their price because it could mean more money in my pocket. Had visions of buying a couple. And like others I listened to the knowledgeable pro's here condemn them and say they didnt think it would be possible to produce a nice double for that price. Was thinking with cnc machines and the like it could be done and these old timers need to move on with the times.
Well guess what, these guys were right! If we leave this topic now it is important to accept if they cut corners on the regulation process then corners were cut in other areas as well, they just have not been discovered yet.

I wouldnt accept dremel grinding on a $200 rifle, let alone one costing $3,000-$5,500. Even my Remington Baikal is crowned correctly and easy to regulate to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Just so I'm clear........are folks wanting to return rifles they haven't even fired just because of what they've read in this forum?

Cabelas has sold hundreds of these rifles. We have heard about a dozen or so....

Are we victims or "Internet Overblown"

Nope. My 450-400 shot exactly as the two distant holes depicted on the regulation target and its muzzles were not ground at all. I really questioned if it was ever regulated. They sent it in to be "regulated" when I learned of the grinding technique. I told them to keep it. My 9.3x74 shot well at 50 yards but crossed beyond that. After some fiddling with loads I could not get proper groups at 100 yards much less 200 where I wanted to be able to shoot the rifle out too. They now have it too. I will wait on a deal on a properly reguated 9.3 as they are out there.

Just an update on the Sabatti regulation drama:

From the Gun Library Manager at the Boise, Idaho Cabelas:
"Sorry to hear of the problem. We found the same problem with a couple of other rifles and contacted Sabatti about it. They directed to have any like rifles sent back to them to re-barrel at their Florida address.

You can send it to them directly or if you wish you can send it back here and we will send it back."

Mine will be going back tomorrow.

If it is taken care of in a timely fashion (I think 6-8 weeks is fair)and regulated properly, I will be both satisfied AND happy.

For those interested in doing the same, I would contact the manager of the Gun Library from which you purchased it, tell them what I have shared and take it from there.

quote:

My 9.3x74 shot well at 50 yards but crossed beyond that. After some fiddling with loads I could not get proper groups at 100 yards much less 200 where I wanted to be able to shoot the rifle out too. They now have it too.

Boxhead,

You have me very confused by this statement....

quote:

My 9.3x74 shot well at 50 yards but crossed beyond that. After some fiddling with loads I could not get proper groups at 100 yards much less 200 where I wanted to be able to shoot the rifle out too. They now have it too.

Do you believe a double rifle can regulate to more than one point in space?
Do you expect a DR to be regulated to 200 yds?

All SXS double rifles MUST cross at some point in space I believe.......

I'm not sure this is what a DR is all about..........

I have a 450-400 3 1/4 thats shoots well to 200 yards and to the sight leafs. It was made in 1907. A few others I have shoot good to 100 yards.

Edited 1st part out.

Cabela's is sending Sabatti DRs back to USSG in Florida to have them rebarreled there? I don't like the sound of that.

If anyone here has a Sabatti that has 100% for sure NOT been ground on, AND we can confrim that the barrels are joined in the traditional method that will allow heating and then rejoining, then IMO you have there a good deal. If JJ will look at the rifle, based on these two criteria, and reregulate it, then you're ahead in the deal. I mentioned to someone, that if these could be ordered with no alteration to the crowns whatsoever, they could be reregulated and then you'd be into it for $5500 plus $600 to reregulate. That person then said that there was the possibility that these Sabatti barrels were hard joined with a hard metal that could not be reheated without overheating the barrels.

Can anyone verify that these barrels have been joined in the traditional method which uses a soft joining material like tin or another?

My employ takes me all over the country. Whenever I'm near a Cabelas I ALWAYS stop in to take a gander at the Gun Room.

I've had a couple dozen Sabatti rifles in my hands. I inspect them closely, especially the muzzles since all of this discussion. I've not seen one without perfectly machines and finished muzzles.

So I would guess that they are only "dremel regulating" when you send them back?

I'm going to buy one in 45-70 as soon as I can get up to Maine which is a two hour ride.

I'll figure out this regulation stuff even if I have to slit the barrels right down the middle and regulate and then solder a spacer.....

No, many... most are hit with the dremel. The target says "Final Tuning". It's been speculated that they aren't regulated even once. I'd say that's possible or at the most once, then they finish out the gun, and then if it doesn't hit a grapefruit at 25 meters they attack it with the dremel. I say 25, as I was told that, during discussions with another distributor about importing them, Sabatti said they regulate at 25 meters. When that practice was disputed and the request was made to regulate at 50 meters, they said fine, we'll right 50 meters on the test target.

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Do you believe a double rifle can regulate to more than one point in space?
Do you expect a DR to be regulated to 200 yds?

All SXS double rifles MUST cross at some point in space I believe.......

I'm not sure this is what a DR is all about..........

Not true. A properly regulated double rifle will not cross at any distance. When properly regulated the distance between the groups from each barrel should be equal to the distance between the centers of each barrel and though groups from each barrel may open up with distance until they overlap each other the center of each group should be parallel to the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Do you believe a double rifle can regulate to more than one point in space?
Do you expect a DR to be regulated to 200 yds?

All SXS double rifles MUST cross at some point in space I believe.......

I'm not sure this is what a DR is all about..........

Not true. A properly regulated double rifle will not cross at any distance. When properly regulated the distance between the groups from each barrel should be equal to the distance between the centers of each barrel and though groups from each barrel may open up with distance until they overlap each other the center of each group should be parallel to the other.

I edited one of my posts. I need to learn more about this. Two persons, whose opinions I highly respect are at odds on this issue. I'm going to ground on it for now til I learn more.

quote:

Not true. A properly regulated double rifle will not cross at any distance.

Sooo.....with the sight line being between the barrels, one barrel will always be left of point of aim and one barrel will always be right of point of aim?

They do not attemp to regulate the two bullets to the same POI at some prescribed distance?

quote:

I've had a couple dozen Sabatti rifles in my hands. I inspect them closely, especially the muzzles since all of this discussion. I've not seen one without perfectly machines and finished muzzles.

so your telling me you've held a little over half of the dr rifles sab has brought into the country.

quote:

so your telling me you've held a little over half of the dr rifles sab has brought into the country.

I have no idea how many rifles Cabelas bought from Sabatti. When I was at the shot show last year and discussed this rifle with Sabatti, I was under the impression the deal was quite a few rifle more than a few dozen. Within the last year and a half I've been in just about all the Cabela stores around the country.
The two stores closest to me (CT and ME) had five of them between them last month.

recall for all of us your double rifle experience where you deem it fine for the barrels to cross..

Those were questions on the barrel regulation.....therefore the question marks.

Just trying to learn as much as I can over here.

Well just for grins, perhaps some double rifle owners can show us their 200 yard targets, clearly demonstrating that the right and left bullet holes are, say, 2 inches apart (horizontally) at 200 yards. This should be rather easy as these are all "properly regulated".
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well just for grins, perhaps some double rifle owners can show us their 200 yard targets, clearly demonstrating that the right and left bullet holes are, say, 2 inches apart (horizontally) at 200 yards. This should be rather easy as these are all "properly regulated".
Peter.

Like I inferred in my post a few posts back, this will not be the case as the individual groups for each barrel open up resulting in the groups overlaying each other to some extent with the centers of the two groups maintaining a separation. This is what is referred to as the composite group and the situation I am describing is what would be considered ideal.

quote:

say, 2 inches apart (horizontally) at 200 yards. This should be rather easy as these are all "properly regulated".

There would be more then 2 inches drift at 200 yards but they should not cross..Another ar expert is born

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

say, 2 inches apart (horizontally) at 200 yards. This should be rather easy as these are all "properly regulated".

There would be more then 2 inches drift at 200 yards but they should not cross..Another ar expert is born

400 nitro express has come back in disguise?

I cannot believe some of the statements made in the last 24 hours (26th) on this thread regarding regulation of DR's.

I have now realised why this whole Sab thing got so out of hand.

I'll leave it to the others who have done such a good of correcting you.

And before I get flamed, that is not a high and mighty statement, but some things to do with Regulation of DR's are set in stone yet we still see people trying to saying the opposite.

At least listen to people like Mac.

.

quote:

400 nitro express has come back in disguise?

Who is that?

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:

quote:

Not true. A properly regulated double rifle will not cross at any distance.

Sooo.....with the sight line being between the barrels, one barrel will always be left of point of aim and one barrel will always be right of point of aim? Correct.

They do not attemp to regulate the two bullets to the same POI at some prescribed distance? This is also correct, they do not.

Here is some answers that might bring some light on the subject for those new to double rifles! This is a folder I have written several yrs ago, and is in my files. I just copied it and pasted it here. Maybe it will help some in explanation!


The quote above is basically true, except for the mention of barrel hormonics! Individual barrel harmonics do not play a much part in the regulations, because though it does exist after a fashion, it is not important in a double rifle. The reason is the barrels are tied together and are thus basically inert in the way hormonics play a BIG part in a single barrel rifle. This is just one of the misconceptions where double rifles are concerned!

Double rifle Misconceptions
Here are the most often misrepresentations about double rifles that one reads from some of the writers that should know better. Of course it really isn’t always their fault, because most were told wrong by well-known custom gunsmiths, who didn’t know better either. There are a few double gun, and now double rifle magazines and quarterlies that still make some of these misrepresentations. Those are lax in editing of contributors for factual claims. Some just slip through because the editor doesn’t know either.

#1 is that most people think that a double rifle is useful only at very short range.

This is one of the most often misconceptions printed in magazines and book by some of the best known writers, and in articles, and hunting reports by respected world wide hunters. This issued as a reason why the writer doesn’t use a double rifle when hunting dangerous game.
This is simply not true, and the double rifle properly regulated by the maker, and using the proper regulating loads, is just as accurate as any hunting rifle having the same type sights. If the double is fitted with a fixed rear sight, and multiple flip-ups for longer range then all the hunter has to do is practice with those sights at the ranges engraved on them.

#2 is that a double rifle’s flight path crosses at a given distance because the barrels are regulated by fixing the barrels to converge from chamber to the muzzle.

The convergence of the barrels is necessary to make the rifle shoot side by side on the target, at the distance engraved on any of the flip-up sights no matter what range that happens to be. The fact is, if the rifle was regulated properly by the maker, and the loads being shot are the proper load for that rifle, then the centers of each barrel’s individual group will be on it’s own side of the aiming point no matter the range. Of course, as with any rifle, if the barrel of any rifle is shooting one inch groups at 100 yds, then it will be shooting two in groups at 200 yds. So this means with a double rifle some of the bullets in a group will spill over into the group from the other barrel. However the centers of each barrel’s individual group will remain parallel to that of the other barrel. This is the first mistake that is made by folks who are unschooled in the way a double rifle works, believing that a double rifle crossed at a given range so would be useless from that point on dawn range!

#3 a double rifle is no good for North American hunting, only for dangerous game in Africa, and India.

The double rifle is the only rifle ever made that started life as a HUNTING rifle! All others began life as a war weapon. Though the double rifles were pressed into war use it was a specialized use to shoot through walls that hid snipers, but then as today the rifle has always been a hunting rifle. The Europeans have used double rifle in smaller chamberings for two hundred years to hunt everything from fox to large bear and boar. The very large chamberings were only used in Africa, and India as a rule. However I use them for all hunting, large or small game in North America, and I’m here to tell you a 300 pound wild hog, or a 1000 pound brown bear will die very quickly with a 470NE double rifle, and there isn’t a better designed rifle in the world for woods shooting of all game there, no matter the continent where hunted, as long as they are cartridge specific for the game sought.

#4 Double rifle only cost so much because they are all gold inlaid and engraved.

Double rifle cost is directly to the skilled people, required for the building of a working double rifle, and hand fitting, that can only be done by skilled hands, a skill that has been handed down from father to son for 200 years, and simply can’t be done by machines.
Engraving is expensive on any type rifle, sometimes more expensive than the rifle it is applied on. A double rifle left in the white, will still be an expensive item, simply because they are so skilled labor intensive! Most other types of rifle can be made almost entirely by machines, and put together on a assembly line basis, double rifles cannot.

#5 if CNC machines were used quality double rifles could be built as cheaply as good bolt rifles.

As stated in the answer above, CNC is only used to do the hog work to get the pieces close to their final shape, but the final fitting and shaping has to be done by very skilled human hands.

#6 The magazine on a bolt rifle makes it a better choice for taking on dangerous game in a charge.

This is an excuse that many use to justify not owning a double rifle for dangerous game. Their contention is that a bolt rifle with one in the chamber, and three large cartridges in the magazine is more fire power than a double rifle with only two chambers. Their idea that all four rounds in the bolt can be accessed faster that they can from a double rifle, because all one has to do is work the bolt three time to shoot all four. What they are saying is that the bolt rifle doesn’t have the be reloaded for the four shots, while the double has to be reloaded after the second shot! This is true of the double rifle, but they are wrong about the bolt rifle, which must be re-loaded three times after the FIRST shot. The double rifle fires two of the quickest AIMED shots with shots one and too. The reload is necessary, then the next two shots are both AIMED, and all the shots utilized with only a change of trigger, for the first two, then break and drop two rounds into the chambers simultaneously the fire the next two AIMED shots with only a change of triggers. If anyone has doubt that a double rifle can fire four shot on target faster than it can with a bolt rifle, it has been done and timed many times, and I have done it myself.
The double rifleman is at no disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooter while standing off a concerted charge of a large animal that requires a lot of stopping. That has been proven many times. At Jullif, Texas we have a shoot twice per year called “HOOT & SHOOT” at the Bayou Gun Club. At this shoot all shooters are shooting stopping rifles, both bolt, and double rifles. The drill for the stopping exercise is 8”targets at 25 yds, the distance where most charges start. The shooters start with the rifle loaded, the bolt with one in the chamber, and three down, and the double rifle with both chambers loaded, with two more rounds in his shell carrier or between the fingers of his forehand, for the re-load. The eight inch target has a two inch 10X ring for a possible score of only 40 points if all hit the two inch 10X ring. As stated the black bulls eye is eight inches across, and any shot that misses the black bulls eye is not counted even though that bullet would still be hitting a large animal.

I was shooting a Merkel mod 140E –1 chambered for 9.3X74R, and because of a case of procrastination on my part I had failed to disengage the auto feature of the safety though I’d had this rifle for some years. I was taken to task, by my readers for recommending they be disengaged, when I hadn’t done so on my own rifle. In my defense, the rifle in question was not my dangerous game rifle I simply kept putting it off. Because it was a 9.3X74R double rifle it could be pressed into service as a DGR, if need be, so it really should have been disengaged, and I was drawn and quartered, for not doing so. More about the reason for disengaging auto safeties later. The shooting starts with a whistle, and all four shots are fired on the target as fast as you can, and the individual timing is started when each shooter fires his first shot, and stopped when he fires his last shot. I fired all four shots in four seconds flat, with the score on the target being 36 points of a possible 40 points if all shots had hit the 10X ring. The problem was I forgot about the automatic safety and tried to fire shot three, after the re-load, with the safety in the “ON “ position. If the auto feature had been disabled like all my other doubles I would probably have shaved a full second off that time. In the act of trying to stop a lion, or big Brown bear that extra second could have cost me my life. In this shoot I took third place, and the two who beat me were shooting double rifles as well, and the only one bolt that even who beat my score was way down the rank for time.


#7 When a guy decides to buy himself a double rifle but not understanding how they work he thinks if he buys a double rifle in one of the common big bore cartridges used in bolt rifles he can get more power out of the rifle by hopping up the loads, and the bullets being easily available at the local gun store, shoot it cheaper, and still have a working double rifle.

This is a big mistake on the buyer’s part. First most cartridges that are used in bolt rifles are rimless/belted rimless, and are not suited for a double rifle that will be used on dangerous game. They are slow to load properly, and the tiny spring loaded pawls needed to snap into the rimless cartridge’s extractor groove, are fragile and prone to damage, or sticking in the down position. Either way they are a danger to the shooter who is trying to stop something that wants to kill him! These cartridges are not simple DROP-IN cartridges for the chambers so the cartridges can simply be dropped into the chamber simultaneously, but must be pushed into the chambers one at a time. SLOW! Too slow, and if they aren’t seated before the rifle is closed sharply, the tiny extractor pawls may be snapped off with the broken piece not allowing the rifle to be closed fully. At that point, if the animal is not down for the count, the shooter is in some real trouble with nothing but a 12 pound club to fight with.
The double rifle is designed for rimmed, low-pressure cartridges, with tapered bodies. This shape, and low pressure allowed the cartridges to simply slide out of the chambers if only moved a microscopic amount the case was free of the grip of the chamber walls, and would simply fall out of the chambers. Many of the modern cartridges used for dangerous game in bolt rifles are too straight sided, and high pressure to work properly in a break-top double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

400 nitro express has come back in disguise?

Who is that?

An AR member who used to post on this forum who is in the same league (ie at the top of the tree)
as Mac in terms of knowledge and explaining things to do with how DR's work.

He also had extensive knowledge of old English DR firms.

Like Mac, settled a few discussions / arguments on here.

Mac
I love this statement
"#7 When a guy decides to buy himself a double rifle but not understanding how they work"

Sums it up well.

.

MacD37 has posted...

At last, the voice of reason.


Thanks for restoring order Mr. Mac.

While all that is good information a double rifle really is for the short range, dangerous game stuff. Because one can use some of them for long range stuff it is irrelevant as a bolt action with shoot more accurately with a wider range of loads (and velocities) than is capable with double rifles and all the B.S. required with regulation.

And a decent double rifle should shoot about the same regardless of bullet velocity. Because a double has to have some special load to shoot into the side of a barn at 25 yards shows that most are generally of limited usefulness.

All these discussions probably do little more than give the uninitiated nightmares because his double doesn't shoot the two bullets parallel out to 10,000 yards.

I constantly hear all the crap about shooting stuff out to hundreds of yards but what I witness is missed and wounded game. Giving some poor guy the misrepresentation that a double is capable of shooting game at hundreds of yards, with open sights no less, is disingenuous.

The typical buff story is the guy had to shoot the buff a couple dozen times and it ran off for hundreds of yards before dying. And you are worried about shooting parallel for a thousand yards. Ha.

[QUOTE
Nemo 458

]MacD37 has posted...

At last, the voice of reason.


Thanks for restoring order Mr. Mac.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for posting nothing of value yet again

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
While all that is good information a double rifle really is for the short range, dangerous game stuff. Because one can use some of them for long range stuff it is irrelevant as a bolt action with shoot more accurately with a wider range of loads (and velocities) than is capable with double rifles and all the B.S. required with regulation.

And a decent double rifle should shoot about the same regardless of bullet velocity. Because a double has to have some special load to shoot into the side of a barn at 25 yards shows that most are generally of limited usefulness.

All these discussions probably do little more than give the uninitiated nightmares because his double doesn't shoot the two bullets parallel out to 10,000 yards.

I constantly hear all the crap about shooting stuff out to hundreds of yards but what I witness is missed and wounded game. Giving some poor guy the misrepresentation that a double is capable of shooting game at hundreds of yards, with open sights no less, is disingenuous.

The typical buff story is the guy had to shoot the buff a couple dozen times and it ran off for hundreds of yards before dying. And you are worried about shooting parallel for a thousand yards. Ha.

Will, have you ever hunted with a DR ?
Have you ever shot in a competition with a DR ?


With smaller calibre DR's, 9.3 and below but particularly 30 cal and below,
longer range shots - 100 - 250 yards are perfectly doable, especially with a scope.

With larger calibre DR's, 100 yard shots are nothing special. beyond that, I hope
people have practised, just like with a bolt action rifle.

Remember, hunting with a DR doesn't just mean Elephant and Cape Buffalo.
Plenty of other game out there we take with a DR. Come over here and you will
see.

.

My thoughts were the same. Where is Mark?

BTW Mac learned everything he knows from Mark.

One could do a whole lot worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
400 nitro express has come back in disguise?

Will

And what is your problem with that ?

Didn't you think he posted anything of value ?
If so, you are one of the few.

MacD37 and 400 woud have more combined knowledge abut DR's that the rest of us put together.

As well as both being able to put it down in writing which novices can understand - Except of course if they choose not to listen which a few seem to be like on here ATM.

.

Did I not spell disingenuous correctly?!

500N maybe if we buy a book or a wallet he will be sincere ..

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
While all that is good information a double rifle really is for the short range, dangerous game stuff. Because one can use some of them for long range stuff it is irrelevant as a bolt action with shoot more accurately with a wider range of loads (and velocities) than is capable with double rifles and all the B.S. required with regulation.

And a decent double rifle should shoot about the same regardless of bullet velocity. Because a double has to have some special load to shoot into the side of a barn at 25 yards shows that most are generally of limited usefulness.

All these discussions probably do little more than give the uninitiated nightmares because his double doesn't shoot the two bullets parallel out to 10,000 yards.

I constantly hear all the crap about shooting stuff out to hundreds of yards but what I witness is missed and wounded game. Giving some poor guy the misrepresentation that a double is capable of shooting game at hundreds of yards, with open sights no less, is disingenuous.

The typical buff story is the guy had to shoot the buff a couple dozen times and it ran off for hundreds of yards before dying. And you are worried about shooting parallel for a thousand yards. Ha.

Pondoro has spoken.

Man........This is just one hell of a friendly site! I'm sure all you folks are just funn'n each other........right?

Will

How come you reckon more wounded game with DR's than bolt actions.

If you practice and shoot within your capabilities, that shouldn't be the case.

Plenty of people here shoot at 100 yards in competitions with DR's and all shots in the black.

A fair few shoot DR's a lot at game and take 50+ animals a year with them, from Buffalo, Camels, Donkeys, Scrub bulls, Pigs, Horses, deer to name just a few.

So stop generalising.

.

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Man........This is just one hell of a friendly site! I'm sure all you folks are just funn'n each other........right?

No.

It is normally a fun sight, except when dorks don't listen to what are "black and white rules"
in regards to a subject - such as DR regulation - and then complain that the gun doesn't work / shoot straight !!!

All that goes on here is exactly the same as goes on around any campfire when out hunting with mates
and the subject turns to the best guns, the best calibres, loads etc.

At the end of the day, I'd still have a beer with all of the AR members - and the discussions would probably
continue

.

OK, so let's sum up, because I'm still confused....

I buy a Sabati in 45-70.....each barrel would be expected to group around 2"-3" at 100 yards with open sights....

Therefore, at 50 yards if I have two shots on paper with a spread of 4" - 6" (2-3" to the left and right of point of aim) I should be pleased that the rifle is properly regulated?

I would suggest, if the above is accurate, folks are returning DRs that are doing exactly what the rifle is supposed to do. And if the rifle is consistently shooting with two shots in the same hole, the rifle is not regulated properly and should be returned for proper regulation?