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With the ejector Merkels coming out, what effect will this have on the price of non-ejector models? Are we already seeing the effect or will the rise of the Euro wipe this out? Thanks! | ||
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I think it will matter more in the small rifles than the big bore doubles. Most big bore double rifle users disable the ejectors anyway, so to them it will not matter that much. The smaller doubles from 9.3X74R down are available, and always have been with ejectors anyway. I have 470NE 140.2 Safari, with extractors, and I don't find it to be a handicap, so it will not make my rifle worth less to me, but might to others. I hope it does, because I want a 500NE Merkel, and if I can get it cheaper, so much the better!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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MAcD 37 i don't agree that most users disable their ejectors. you are reading too many books written 70 - 80 years ago !! today hunters want ejectors. ejectors add a lot to the value of a double rifle. and in the new merkels they are only about $500 more than the old model without them !!! you will see the price of used non-ejector guns of ALL MAKES suffer from the value of the new merkels. there is a NON - EJECTOR MERKEL 470 fired a total of 11 times on gunsinternational.com for $8,950 so MACD keep your piggy bank handy as prices are already falling TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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tomo577, What was the price for the ejector retro fit kit? Yes I to am hoping to find one of those usless non ejector guns when the price gets cheaper. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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there is no ejector retrofit kit. they have to be put in by a qualified gunsmith. buying the parts from merkel - it cost about $1,000 completed but my texas gunsmith is working on making the parts himself so maybe prices will come down. we'll see. you know how these texans are. TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Little or no effect. The newer models will just be more expensive, but not much. Ejectors making a double rifle a great deal more valuable than the same model without them is a phenomenon I've never observed in 20+ years of closely watching the market. I've owned both, and personally don't care for the retarded closing (ejector) feature. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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My 9,3 and my 450/400 are ejector guns, my 450 No2 an extractor. I can reload my ejector guns a little bit faster. However I have killed 3 elephants at 6 yards or less with my extractor 450 No2. Ejectors/extractors does not make a big difference to me. I can use them both interchangeably, on the same day with out problem. I do know I have never lost any brass from an extractor gun. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I agree that there will be little if any effect on used non-ejector Merkels. Non-ejector Merkels (new) yet to be sold may be the ones to drive whatever minimal, if any, downtrend in pricing. Other makes of non-ejector guns will not be affected at all. As odd as it seems to me, there will always be someone out there who'll be in the market for a non ejector guns. I also wholly disagree with the statement that most DR owners disable their ejectors. Why on earth this is done, as if for any good reason, is beyond me. I'll edit to say if the DR is a range gun only then extractor only and disabled ejector guns would be nice. In a field DR, never, even a PG DR. | |||
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I get a lot of used Merkels in on trade, and they have definitely taken a hit in resale value. Last year, I couldn't keep a used Merkel in stock for over 30-days. This year they just aren't selling - even at reduced prices. Merkel has exacerbated this by dumping lots of new extractor guns on the market. Short term: Yes, they have definitely been impacted (primarily by the mfg.) Long term: They will bounce back when the excessive supply is absorbed. | |||
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I think we'll find that the new ejector guns dry up quick and that will drive this correction back up. Something this short in duration, is it really affecting prices. Some will get some good deals yes. | |||
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CORRECTION: It was brought to my attention that Chapuis has no intention of chambering the 450/400NE 3" in their rifles. I knew that, but had simply forgotten it (OLDTIMERS DESEASE)! Sorry about that! Still, I think it is a mistake on their part, because the Chapuis is a perfect platform for that cartridge, and it would boost their sales, in the USA for sure! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The first thing I do is take the ejectors out of my guns..I hate'em, but I like to have them handy for resale purposes. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I think NE450 no2 is saying That extractor guns have more class and don't through your brass in the grass.... Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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This obsession with brass from guys who can afford a double rifle, from Merkel to H&H, is beyond me. | |||
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Me too. Ejector guns are faster, no doubt. In reality, I doubt there is a need for more than the first two shots anyway, in 99% of hunting DG conditions, and therefore it usually doesn't matter whether it has extractors or ejectors, and hence one sees these comments about not needing or wanting ejectors. I have hardly reloaded an ejector double when the tracker has shown up with the empty brass to hand to me. And rarely I have sent them back to find ejected brass. They ALWAYS find it. It must be a Gringo thing about saving fired, relatively insignificantly valued brass, no matter the effort or cost! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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And many trackers use the empty brass as snuff containers. You couldn't hide empty brass from them if you tried.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I'll take ejectors,ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL,however, when it comes down to an old English non-ejector vs new non-English ejector gun; kind of red and green apples then it's no consequence the English gun with extractors. The display of PURE POWER is nothing short of AWESOME ! 1 JOHN 3:18 | |||
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That's like saying since you have enough money to pay the price for gas for your gas-hog, you should pour 1/3 of the gas on the ground, and only put 2/3s in the tank! Brass like most of the NE rounds are not available in your local gun store, and must be ordered, and is not always in stock, but back ordered, in most cases, and it is not as much the cost, as the inconvenience. Now if you own five or six different chambering in double rifles, and can afford to buy $1000 worth of brass for each one of them, then you will always have a fresh supply of unfired brass, and can kick them into the weeds! I do that when hunting serious big game, but not when stump shooting, or hunting in North America, or at the range. the next paragraph has been edited to reflect a mistake on my part in it before! In regard to the cocking of the ejectors, being on CLOSEING, rather than on opening! I can tell you the reason I don't particularly like ejectors is that the extractor rifle breaks open to cock the locks, and that is done more quietly, and it is easier to bring the barrels down due to their weight, assisting the cocking of the locks. The barrels however, are not only harder to close because of their weight, but is exacerbated by having to cock the ejectors as well. Cocking the locks is far more silent, and easier, than the cocking of the ejectors, on closing. Additionally, and the click, combined with the PING of the cases being ejected, are dangerous, in some cases. Metallic sounds are not something you want when in the middle of a herd of elephant, or buffalo! Many times you can drop an animal in the herd, in tight bush, without stampeding the herd, and must break, reload with animals all around you. The last thing you want is any unnecessary click, and squeaks!  Besides, being able to own anything that cost $10K/$15K is certainly not a sign of affluence, or condoning waste, and most folks who are rich, didn't get that way throwing money away.  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac I'm just referring to the few/several kicked out while on the hunt itself, and as was said the locals always find them, and I've heard many times too that they do treasure them for snuff containers etc. I thought my rifles cocked upon opening and the ejectors are cocked upon closing. Yeah it's harder, my wife couldn't do it without practice on my Heym 470 but she could on my Chapuis 9.3 and like anything it just takes some thought, then some practice to commit to muscle memory so you don't think about it anymore. To each his own and more power to them. I'm new to double guns and I want to have a consistent starting point and basis from which to start down the road to becoming proficient, so when I hunt I don't fuck up. I even now shoot only SxS with ejectors when shooting skeet & clays. But I won't give up all bolt guns, yet. I think changing the position of your rifle for a 3rd/4th shot by tipping the piece is tactically unsound so I would never embrace it as a technique. If some can do it in their sleep I'm happy for them. I would never teach a newbie this way, meaning the occasion would not arise in my circle (wife, sons) as all guns would have kickers. | |||
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You are correct Showbart, and I went back and edited my post refelcting the COCKING EJECTORS ON CLOSEING, which is true, and make the closeing even harder, because of it! The cocking of the locks is assisted by the weight of the barrels on opening, while the weight of the barrels exsorbates the dificulty of closeing to cock the ejectors! the extra click coupled with the PING od the cases being ejected causes two unnecessary sounds, that are not needed in some cases. I wrote the earlier post in a hurry, and had a brain fart! Thats a symtom of OLDTIMERS DISEASE!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Tell you what though, I'll admit, now that I finally have a big bore ejector, it was bitch to close at first, no question. After my Chapuis 9.3 and AyA 12ga, I stumbled a bit the first time I snapped it. JJ has the lower right now but upon it's return there's a couple things I want to try, emulating some expert clays shooters I've seen, to see if it can boil down to an effortless and smooth stroke. | |||
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It has nothing whatsoever to do with the brass. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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The hijacking continues....
Personally, after each shot I like to reach into my pocket and scatter a few woodleighs onto the ground, along with any lose change and small bills I might be carrying, as a sign of affluence.
The most I've ever paid for brass was $15per and a 15 month wait. Why, because it was worth it! I'm not rich, but I surely won't become rich if I throw away hard to get brass. That's one of the best ways to turn a $20-40k gun into a nice curio or wall hanger. Mac, why not go whole hog and use a hammer gun? Totally silent and easy on opening and closing, ZERO chance of doubling if only one is cocked and only a tiny bit slower if with a heavy(cocking second during recovery). The tired mantra about "two rifles in one", reliability, guarenteed second shot etc is completely negated if you double in the heat of the moment and find yourself holding two empty single shots! Purdey is making hammer 20s and soon 12s again. How long until hammer DRs are "rediscovered"? Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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I mean when brass is mentioned within the context of a hunt in the field, specifically a DG hunt in Africa. I understand that an extractor gun has a somehwat different character from an ejector gun. | |||
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 Believe it or not I have two hammer double rifles that I find quite fun to hunt with.  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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MAc D 37 COME ON MAC ..... NOW BE HONEST .... WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF A HERD OF ELEPHANTS ? OR A HERD OF BUFFLAO ? as for me i would definitely want an ejector rifle that i could reload quickly if i could ever get into a herd THOSE OLD TIME STORIES ARE JUST THAT . REMINICINES OF DAYS GONE BY. WHAT PH IS GOING TO GET YOU INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE HERD TODAY? TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have been the middle of several different herds of cape buff and elephant. Most of the time we were there on purpose. More elephants than buff for sure. Most of the time I had my extractor gun. Felt perfectly safe. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Absurd. ------------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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To be sure Tom it has been a while, since I retired and went on a fixed income in 1996, I've done precious little buffalo hunting,and no Elephant hunting, but that's my problem, and has nothing to do with the jist of my post ! However, especially with Elephant in thick bush, many time one must move in among several animals to get to the one you want, and in many cases you cannot see all the ele that you know are VERY near. The one you worry about is not the one you shoot but the Askaris, who may pinpoint your position. This is far more likely with elephant than with Buffalo. Buffalo are more likely to run when you shoot one, unless you have just taken the "BULL OF THE WOODS"again in thick Jesse, in a small group of daggaboys, and his pals decide to stay with him. The drill is, if you know they are there, but can't see them, to quietly re-load, and wait it out. Doing anything else is likely to get someone hurt! Tom you know that, and the fact that animals acted that way , WAY BACK WHEN, has not changed with time! Many folks like to rely on luck, and most are lucky, from experience they Fu Fu these things simply beacause it is the way some old codger did it. I am an old codger, and I don't trust LUCK, and hedge every bet, by by-passing every thing I can, to screw up Mr. Murphry's propencity to throw a rock in the coggs!  Others may do as it suits them!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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GOOD COMMENTS MAC D TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I think you guys are missing the point in trying to capture spend rounds. I have been guilty of this as have many others in watching the videos. The innate tendency of double shotgun shooters at the range is to open the action and catch the empties before they hit the ground. This carries over to hunting birds and even to hunting DG. I am not sure whether that is due to wanting to save the empties or it is just habit. I find it quite unsettling watching these videos and the guy is trying to reload quickly but, first, no matter what the potential danger, he has to grab the empties and stick them in his pocket. I don't care whether the cases are worth a hundred bucks apiece, there is a point where worrying about empties is just goofy. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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It isn't done that way. There's no tipping, twisting, flipping, etc. I can't imagine where all that BS got started. There's no extra movement at all, and the ejector gun is just harder to close with no attendant benefit. I agree with Will that, with either type, if you're touching the spent cases before picking them up off the ground after you're done, you're teaching yourself a bad habit. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Backwards. It doesn't matter on the range, but ejectors on a DR are just an unneeded aggravation for hunting. --------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Please explain how it is done. | |||
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I agree with you that makeing saveing the brass a priority while shooting at dangerous game is a foolish move, and one I do not practice. Even at a shooting range I dump the empties on the ground as long as it is not on concrete. Like 400, I simply don't like the extra clicks, and pings associeated with ejectors when in tight bush, and haveing to slam the rifle shut because of it cocking the ejectors! I'm not saying an animal will never point me out in the bush, after a shot, but if he does it wll not be because of a PING, CLICK! Did anyone here ever wounder why people whisper, and don't make sudden moves, after the shot, when they can no longer see the animal, or animals? Think about it, that is not simply being quiet in RESPECT for the DEAR DEPARTED, you have just shot! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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After firing last barrel, hit toplever as you come off the shoulder and push forward with the shooting hand to open. Reload, close gun, and shoot. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Dear John; Amazing video !!!, that guy shot really fast. Good to see you again over here !!!, I hope you and your familiy be ok:Regards: Guillermo. "Every ignored reallity prepares its revenge!" | |||
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400, you are most knowledgeable regarding double rifle manufacturing, history, etc. but what is your first hand experience in elephant or buffalo hunting ? how many times, how many killed, what countries, pictures please your opinons regarding ejectors are well taken. but they are just that, your opinions, not fact , as much as you might want them to be. everyone is entitled to their opinion and your comment regarding ejector guns being harder to close...... well that rifle might need looking at for repairs but there isn't enough extra effort required to close a proper ejector rifle that it is even noticable. and it certainly wouldn't be noticable in the heat of action. well, there's my opinion TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Effect of Merkel ejectors on price of extractor models?
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