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While visiting VC in France in June I was kindly taken on a tour of their facility and in due course offered to shoot some of their Double rifles . One of the rifles was an over and under 450/400. What an easy handling rifle. Shoots beautifully. What are members experiences with O/U as oppose to S/S DR's. Any easier regulation when self loading ? | ||
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The only way to determine this is to have one of each at then spend the rest of your days shooting them both in the name of scientific discovery. Triggers - a double rifle needs double triggers. Many over and under doubles have a single trigger, which rather negates two separate mechanisms and unlikely both will go down at the same time. Opening - an over and under has to open a little bit wider than a side by side. Less pronounced than with a shotgun, but with the latter on a good driven day, I have shot both side by side and ou and haven't noticed the difference in terms of speed of stuffing cartridges. Scoping - both can be scoped Regulation - a double should be well regulated for its chosen ammo. Any other ammo may or probably will not regulate. More of an issue with rapid follow up shots with warm/hot barrels. Given that they are fixed to each side by side tend to warp in a horizontal plane, over and under in a vertical and tend to throw the shot placement accordingly. On game given the choice I would prefer to be slightly high or low than off to one side. A couple of inches movement caused lots of rapid shooting is Much more of an issue methinks for a 7x65ish double used on small deer at longer ranges, than a big bore used on big game at close range. Value - watching the auctions over the years it strikes me that secondhand o/u doubles tend to be less costly than an equivalent quality side by side even though new they seem to be same order of magnitude. Certainly a big bore side by side is the traditional big game rifle. | |||
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I own both. My 450/400 3 inch is a SXS. I shot a Heym 450/400 3 inch O/U which was a nice rifle! All my smaller caliber rifles are express rifles (OU). Get the one you like! That's the best double rifle for you! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I also have both S/S & O/U and I prefer the S/S for big bore used for dangerous game, but find the O/U to be OK in deer type rifle chamberings. On the subject of triggers, I much prefer double triggers on either type! IMO all double rifles need to be two independent rifles on one stock, and the single trigger negates that concept. If one must have a single trigger then it should be first and foremost a the mechanical type rather than the inertia type. Additionally it should also be of the selective type so one can change which barrel is to be fired first. There are two reasons for the single SELECTIVE trigger. If the first barrel fails to fire, if for any reason, if mechanical, the second pull will fire the other barrel. If the problem was just a dud round when you re-load everything will be OK. However if the sear or the sear spring broke, or a firing pin broke then that barrel will be out of commission till fixed. In this case the selector will allow you to select the other barrel to fire first, so the you can still use the rifle as a single shot, loading only that barrel after every shot. If the trigger is of the inertia type the triggers (Also being non-selective) will not work at all, and you will be left with a 8 or 10 pound club to fight with. ..............................................................  ..........  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I follow the original DR pattern of side by sides, and consider O/Us as a modern innovation not worth considering. And double triggers, always. Not that there is anything wrong with an over and under; just when you say "Double Rifle" to me, it has to be side by side. | |||
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+1  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Ditto! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Plus one more! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The differences between SxS and O&U rifles is not as great as most SxS enthusiasts like to pretend. Well designed rifles of either type work just fine  and there are other issues like this that are more important in serious using guns  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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What 458Win said is spot on,I use both & am happy with either,just finished a tuskless hunt with an O/U DR,worked just fine !!!!!  DRSS | |||
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I had two O/U rifles. The first was a Merkel 9.3x74r with a single set trigger. It was a nice rifle but never really fit me that well. It shot everything I put through it to the sights a couple inches apart. The single trigger on that gun was not reliable, so I got rid of it. Sometimes it would fire the first shot, but not the second. I took it to my gunsmith and he was afraid to mess with it and told me to send it back to Merkel USA. After thinking about it, I disclosed the issue to the buyer and got rid of it. The second was a Beretta 689 Silver Sable. It fit me and shot beautifully. I got rid of it because it was the ugliest double rifle I've ever seen. The silver sable was their first model that had a gap between the barrels and plain wood. The receiver had lines machined into it. As well as it shot, I could never get over the ugly factor, so it went the way of the dodo... I have 3rd O/U that is a 12g a over a 30-06. It has double triggers and a set front trigger. This is an unbelievably accurate and useful rifle that will always stay in my collection. The shotgun/rifle combination is perhaps the most useful configuration I can think of. I have two sxs guns. The first is a shot and Ball 20ga (Kind of a DR?!?). It is regulated to Brenneke 1oz slugs and is perhaps my favorite go to gun because you can hunt so much with it. It handles like a dream and is easy on the eyes. The second sxs is a newly acquired Merkel 140 or 141 in 6.5x55. It has double triggers, set front trigger, claw mounts, and is a dream to shoot. With 140gr sp's, it prints 1 inch at 100yds. It's light, low recoil, kills anything but the largest critters and can be carried all day. I'm getting ready to buy a Merkel 140 to be it's DG mate. Life will be groovy when I complete the set! I guess my advice would be that if it fit's you and you shoot the gun well, then go forth and prosper. I think the only must have on any double rifle (because of my experience) is double triggers. Why not, they're just more reliable... | |||
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458 Win Great photo. May I ask what that Westley Richards Drop lock is ? It's a dead ringer for mine, which is a 400/360. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Double rifles are like women's breasts, they look best side by side. I can add nothing to that... | |||
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Well put and true. As for O/Us working fine; of course they do but that is not my point. I wouldn't care if they worked better, the difference is apparent. Not saying that if you like them, then buy one. I however, could not bear to be seen in the field with one. | |||
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Only if they are well regulated Rich And 505G -- the WR is their Travers model with a round cross bolt. Another benefit of a GOOD O&U is their versatility and ability to reach out and run with the bolt guns when necessary  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I have a Butch Searcy O/U .338 WinMag that breaks every rule of DR etiquette. It was built from a Ruger Red Label 20g shotgun, and the 20g-3" barrels still fit it. Single selective trigger with the tang safety barrel selector. Belted, rimless, high-pressure cartridge. And it still has the original "bespoke" owner's name engraved on the barrel, something like "Buddy Lee Smith III," and that ain't me. It shoots old-style .338/250-grain RNSP Hornady bullets at 2400 fps pretty good, and I am well stocked with those bullets, just in case I ever find a use for such a DR. Still, it is a lot better than a Sabatti SXS DR. | |||
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Does this question really need to be asked. I direct you to ISS post above for the correct answer. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Phil, Is that last picture from the SW end of Kodiak? A bit east of Olga bay? It looks very familiar. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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And you think a properly regulated and ammo matched SxS can't do that? Here you go. 150 yards, one shot, right between the eyes. What more could an O/U have done better than this SxS? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InInjk2NCaw | |||
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O/U or S/S, does it really matter, once you put a scope on it you have violated the standards of gentleman shooters everywhere and turned your rifle into an abomination -- for all intent and purposes you might as well be bolt trash.  Mike | |||
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Ouch!  Does that apply to "Red Dot" type optics as well? (Doktor Optics, RMR, etc.)  | |||
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That depends on how many hours in the left seat of a B-373 you have!   NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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There are things I have done in my past that I am not particularly proud of . . . but I am older and wiser now.  Mike | |||
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 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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O/U rifles look cooler...and have a higher CDI factor Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My point is that a well regulated double with a scope can do most of what bolt rifle can + it has all the benefits of a double at close range.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Seems to me if God had intended man to shoot O/U he would have placed EYES in same configuration??!! Cheers, 470EDDY | |||
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As with shotguns I have always said real ones have two barrels the best are SXS. | |||
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Spread the word Brother Jines! I shall not tell anyone about my Fast Fire III red dot on my 450/400 or the Doctor Optic red dot on yours! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Fellas: You gents who put these fancy new sights on your vintage doubles be thankful of this: if we were in the time of the inquisition you all would have been burned as heretics. But, of course, in our progressive society with multiculturalism, gay this and that, same sex parents, Obamacare, trashing of our constitution, etc., this is one in a long line of traditional God-Family-Country values that is being flushed down the toilet. 1-2-3 leaf express sights. Ivory bed front. End of story. Cheers, gents, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Thank you Rusty and Cal. I was a sinner and had lost my way. I had succumb to the temptations of the devil and in a moment of weakness had abandoned the ways of the righteous and put red dot sights on two of my doubles. (While the fruits of the flesh were tempting, not even the devil could tempt me to do so on my vintage doubles.) But I have seen the error of my ways, have repented and am now seeking to live the life of the just and righteous. Each day . . . one step at a time. Todd and others, you are in my prayers. Mike | |||
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Hell hath no fury like that of a born again sinner ... or was that a woman? I get them mixed up.  | |||
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Welcome back to the fold, brother. Repentant sin is always forgiven. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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It seems that the last resort of a side by side enthusiast is that it is traditional and looks right. When you consider the origin of double barreled guns, it is easy to see why the side by side configuration predominated. There is no way I am aware of to make an over and under flintlock double, so flintlock doubles were always side by side. When the percussion system was adopted, the same consideration applied. Although I have actually heard of an over and under caplock gun, it was exceedingly rare. Finally, when breechloading guns were developed, they were developed by makers who had never made anything else but side by sides, so the traditional design again prevailed. The over and under configuration is certainly the child of the cartridge gun. Therefore it is "non-traditional." Is this a reason to reject it. Certainly, if personal preference, rather than demonstrable superiority is what counts. To someone like myself, raised shooting a repeating shotgun with under barrel magazine tube, the shape of an over and under, together with its single sighting plane argues for that arrangement . As a former competitive international skeet shooter, I never saw anything but over and under double guns on the skeet field. Manipulating an over and under is entirely instinctive for me. I have never experienced a problem with the larger "gape" of the over and under configuration. The line of recoil on an over and under is directly in line with the under lug of the action. For this reason the under lug is not subjected to the lateral leverage caused by firing either of the barrels of a side by side, which ultimately lead to loosening of the action. There is no need to compensate for this twisting action when regulating an over and under. As stated above, if there is a change of impact with an over and under, it is likely to be vertical, rather than horizontal. I have owned an over and under double rifle for over forty years. It has double triggers and its ejectors can quickly be converted to extractors with only a screw driver. I have used it to kill elephant, Cape buffalo, lion, leopard, greater and lesser kudu and eland, the last from a distance of around 200 yards. I don't think I could have accomplished that with a side by side, but that is my personal opinion only. | |||
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Why don't you think you could of accomplished the same thing with a side by side? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Fortunately for me the question is irrelevant, I may not be Bill Gates but I can afford a stock and action for every barrel I own….. Todd, I saw with my own eyes that Mike left camp every day in a certain new fangled contraption called a Toyota…. the ox wagon was probably in for a service I guess  | |||
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Not to mention that Rrrruuuugggeeerrr contraption he has now gravitated to. WTF??  And I thought the Blaser was ugly!  This thing I'm not going anywhere near!  | |||
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Buzz is a pussy and refused to walk.  Mike | |||
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