Seriously? It was Elderkin & Son in Lancashire......and methinks this is much ado about not very much.

Todd and "Dave"(Admiral)
Butch and I have had several conversations about the length of pull. He has told me the very same thing. I will install a spacer and then send the rifle in to Butch to have the "mess" covered with a leather covering. Or I will just have him restock the rifle. Methinks the leather covered pad will do just fine for the time being. I will get a chance to shoot it at least one more time before I have to have the shoulder cut on so he will have plenty of time to go through everything and make sure it is up to snuff. Dave, I have been swamped but I promise that I will try this week to put pictures up even if I have to call my granddaughter to tell me what to do. HOWEVER! The Searcy that I have is the EXACT SAME rifle on his website that is listed under "Sidelocks" and then hit engraving and the 4 pictures are a whole lot better than the pictures that I took to try and post. I have compared the wood on the stock and the knot in the splinter forend and this rifle is the identical gun. When I told Butch this, he said that he originally made this rifle for someone that was 5'9 or 5'10" and that I am either the third or the fourth owner of this particular rifle. There won't be a fifth owner until I am dead and gone. I hate that I won't be able to shoot the hell out of it between now and the next 6 or 7 months but it will be ready when I get healed.
Rick

I'm surprised that there is still debate over which is 'correct', front trigger first or rear trigger first. Aside from personal preferences it always has and most always will be front trigger first as designed and as intended.

Why would one want to use a rear trigger first and then find all other firearm types require the finger to reach for and use the front trigger even if it is the only trigger.

With a double set of triggers with a hair trigger it is always the rear to deliberately set, the front to fire.
A double trigger arrangement on any S/S or U/O shotgun always sees the front trigger firing the least choked barrel first (right barrel for S/S, under barrel on U/O).
It has always been a feature of U/O guns that firing the U barrel first limits the muzzle flip and makes for faster target aquisition for the second shot or target.
A bolt action usually only has one trigger, it is always at the 'front' or if it has two triggers the rear is the trigger for setting the front.
Double rifles developed from the double shotgun and the masters of double gun development, the English, were not so silly to compromise centuries of practice by designing any firearm to use the rear trigger first.

I've used every type of action around and instinctly use the front trigger first on any double and I've never doubled any gun. With the trigger in the first joint of the finger you cannot 'slip' to the rear trigger by accident.

Each to his own but if I was having trouble with doubling I would be looking to fitting the gun properly as many have suggested here.

Double rifles developed from the double shotgun and the masters of double gun development, the English, were not so silly to compromise centuries of practice by designing any firearm to use the rear trigger first.

Really? Have you ever shot driven grouse or driven pheasant? If you have, then you know that you generally shoot the tighter choked barrel first (that would be the back trigger) as the birds will be closer to you by the time you fire the second barrel.

I think like very folks have said earlier, there is a lot of personal preference involved here. Maybe we should just leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Double rifles developed from the double shotgun and the masters of double gun development, the English, were not so silly to compromise centuries of practice by designing any firearm to use the rear trigger first.

Really? Have you ever shot driven grouse or driven pheasant? If you have, then you know that you generally shoot the tighter choked barrel first (that would be the back trigger) as the birds will be closer to you by the time you fire the second barrel.

I think like very folks have said earlier, there is a lot of personal preference involved here. Maybe we should just leave it at that.

I believe you are correct on barrel selection for driven game when using a single double shotgun. But in this case you are using a gun designed for all around shooting not just for driven game. For rough shooting or walk up shooting, the right barrel or more open choked barrel is usually fired first. The paired doubles were usually designed for driven shooting (must be nice to be that wealthy to afford them). In this case the No 1 gun was choked with the tighter barrel on the right and fired by the front trigger. It was used for incoming birds. The gunner then switched to the No 2 gun which was choked with the right barrel being the more open choke and it was fired by the front trigger and used to shoot birds that has passed overhead and were now going away. The left barrel (tighter choke) was then fired at the bird which was now further away.

465H&H

I recently bought a cased pair of Arietta guns from a fellow who used them on driven game in England and Spain. Both were choked normally. I kept one and sold a friend the other.

Over the years I've owned several English guns that were from pairs that have been broken up. (Pairs are hard to sell in the US) All were normally choked. I've heard of one gun with reverse chokes, but have never seen one personally.

Not saying it never happened, just that it was not a regular practice. It's too easy to just go the the needed barrel. If you were using a pair with two different choke combinations, you'd be constantly trying to figure out which gun you had in your hands as birds present themselves at various ranges. There's no time to look at a tiny gold 1 or 2.

MacD - My experience is the same as yours. Pairs (or trios if you are REALLY wealthy) used for driven game are choked the same. Pull the back trigger or tighter choked barrel first for incoming birds followed by the more open choked barrel next (front trigger) as the birds get closer.

Now this probably has nothing to do with doubles rifles except for one thing. Many of the folks who prefer shooting the front trigger first (and I DO respect their preference), claim God himself made double rifles to be shot that way and anyone who varies from this is a blashphemer! Ok, maybe not, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone would consciously order a double rifle with a rear trigger pull much heavier than the front just to justify firing the front trigger first. If you have a vintage double with a worn sear for the right barrel, it makes perfect sense to me to pull the front trigger first to avoid an unintentional double discharge.....just like it makes sense to me in a modern double to pull the rear trigger first to absolutely take every other variable out of the equation that could lead to an unintentional double discharge. Like I said earlier, there is a lot of personal preference here. My preference is to skew the odds towards having that second barrel available should I really need it!

AMEN!

There is a difference in pairs of doubles used for driven game and those specifically designed for driven game and driven game only. Those specifically designed for driven game were choked as I described above. But the British gun makers almost always gave the customer what he wanted and choked the guns as requested. I have had several double trigger British side by sides over the years and they were choked normally with the open choke on the right (right trigger) and the tighter choke on the left (rear trigger). If a bird flushed way out I would sometimes use the rear trigger first to gain the advantage of more choke for that shot. That doesn't mean that the gun was designed to fire the rear trigger first. It is an option and sometimes a useful option. I still maintain that if the gun was designed to fire the rear trigger first most of the time, the rear trigger would be on the right rear of the trigger guard and the front trigger on the left front. This would reduce the possibility of the front trigger whacking the trigger finger on the first shot.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Double rifles developed from the double shotgun and the masters of double gun development, the English, were not so silly to compromise centuries of practice by designing any firearm to use the rear trigger first.

Really? Have you ever shot driven grouse or driven pheasant? If you have, then you know that you generally shoot the tighter choked barrel first (that would be the back trigger) as the birds will be closer to you by the time you fire the second barrel.

I think like very folks have said earlier, there is a lot of personal preference involved here. Maybe we should just leave it at that.

SubS the only thing that is common to double rifles and double shotguns is they both have two barrels!

double rifles are regulated and double shotguns are soldered together at the muzzles to only superimpose one 30 inch pattern sort of over another 30 inch pattern at 30 yds. If you want to see how well a shotgun is "REGULATED" place two slug shells in the barrels and fire them at a target at 50 yds!

The fact is a double rifle is a precision shooter that places two distinct groups side by side but close enough so that the groups merge on the adjoining sides of the two groups to form a composite group of both barrels with the aiming point on the target half way between the centers of each barrels individual group.

When regulating a double rifle by the regulator at the makers factory, the barrels are leveled, and soldered together with an educated GUESS as to the amount of convergence.

Everyone including myself always starts the regulation with cool barrels, starting with a shot from the right barrel, and within 5-8 seconds first one from the left barrel. The barrels are allowed to cool back to so-called room temperature. This is repeated with the barrels being allowed to cool till four shots have been fired from each barrel. Now the regulator goes to the target and finds the center of each barrels individual group, and the centers is what they move, not individual bullet holes. Every time an adjustment is made the same process is followed for another eight rounds, four from each barrel with the barrels being allowed to cool between each shot from both barrels. The reason for the cooling is because that is the way a double rifle is used in the field, with the barrels being in a “ROOM TEMP” condition for the first two shots, and in most cases the first shot being fired with the set trigger for perfect shot placement.

What I’m trying to get across with the above explanation is, that the proper sequence of fire effects regulation because of the heating of the first barrel causes a warping effect on the unfired barrel because they are tied together. The fired barrel of a double rifle heats more on its outside wall enough very quickly, causing a microscopic amounts of warping bringing the cool left barrel with it so that its line of sight through the bore is slightly different than it was before the right barrel was fired. So this sequence is followed throughout the regulation process so the warping is the same each time a pair of shots are fired. Consistency being needed to effect physical regulation process, is then carried over into the placing of the lighter trigger pull, the set trigger being place on the same trigger on all double rifles, and that is always on the right barrel trigger and is the front trigger on a right handed double rifle. I maintain that if the sequince is used to get the best regulation, and the set trigger, and lightest trigger pull is always on the front trigger, then that is the most precision trigger for the first shot.

Because the front trigger is the most accurate and all the precision items are on that trigger seem to me it would follow for fireing that trigger first. However none of this negates the rifle being fired left barrel, back trigger, first if that is what you want to do, but it is not the proper sequence! That is used when you need a different type of bullet for the first shot, or when you can’t handle a double well enough to avoid doubleing!

* Where is the set trigger on aright handed double rifle?

* Where is the lightest trigger pull on a right handed double rifle?
* If you want a very precision shot with a right handed double rifle why do you set the trigger to make it? Because the most precision shot will be with the set trigger, and that is the same reason the front trigger is fitted with a lighter trigger pull un-set, and even lighter when set.

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MacD37 - Just curious - do your .470NE and larger caliber double rifles have set triggers? Mine do not. Similarly, the back and front trigger pulls on my 3 Searcy doubles are close to the same (certainly within a half pound of each other). The only set triggers I have personally seen on double rifles have been in calibers 9.3x74R and smaller. While I appreciate your tutorial on barrel regulation of double rifles (you obviously are well versed in this area), I can tell you that I have experienced no difference in accuarcy with my four doubles, ranging from 9.3x74R to .500NE with shooting the right OR left barrel first. As for the comparison with shotguns, I agree there is little commonality with double rifles - well, maybe a little more than you stated. Someone else brought up the contention that double shotguns were always shot with the front trigger first. I was merely offering an alternate scenario where that would not be the case. Thanks for your thoughtful insights. I learned a few things about barrel regulation by reading your response.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
MacD37 - Just curious - do your .470NE and larger caliber double rifles have set triggers? Mine do not. Similarly, the back and front trigger pulls on my 3 Searcy doubles are close to the same (certainly within a half pound of each other). The only set triggers I have personally seen on double rifles have been in calibers 9.3x74R and smaller. While I appreciate your tutorial on barrel regulation of double rifles (you obviously are well versed in this area), I can tell you that I have experienced no difference in accuracy with my four doubles, ranging from 9.3x74R to .500NE with shooting the right OR left barrel first. As for the comparison with shotguns, I agree there is little commonality with double rifles - well, maybe a little more than you stated. Someone else brought up the contention that double shotguns were always shot with the front trigger first. I was merely offering an alternate scenario where that would not be the case. Thanks for your thoughtful insights. I learned a few things about barrel regulation by reading your response.

Sub you are quite right about the set trigger usually being on rifles smaller that .400, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the reason it is installed on the front trigger! It is installed there because it is the barrel used for the precise placement of the first shot, the same reason the most big bore double rifles are set up with a lighter pull on the front trigger than the back. The reason is also in both cases to limit accidental double discharge by strumming of the back trigger on firing the front trigger.

As I said in my post, the absolute essential practice of firing the front trigger first has to do with the physical regulating of the rifle by the regulator, and the combination of shooting RT/LFT , and cooling between each two shots for four shots from each barrel to find the centers when working up a load for a rifle that the regulation load is unknown. Under hunting conditions there is nothing wrong with firing the back trigger first if that barrel holds the type bullet you want to fire or if you can’t keep from doubling the rifle.

IMO, there will be little difference in the accuracy between the barrels firing the back trigger first under hunting conditions.

Having said the above one needs to understand that a double rifle, when used where it is most valuable is usually fired instinctively with little regard to the sights, sort of like a shotgun, and for that reason the rifle should be operated exactly the same way each time, no matter if you are working up a load, shooting at targets or hunting, because consistency is the key to staying alive when the chips are down and everything must work without a hitch without having to think. This vein of thought is the reason for my objection for things like single triggers, auto safeties, and anything that requires one more thing to do in a tight spot where time is of the essence, and so there is nothing that can be forgotten that will cause the rifle to not fire when the trigger is pulled.

The single trigger if mechanical and non-selective will also always be set to fire the right barrel first, just another indication that that is the barrel to be fired first. And some say the single trigger negates the doubling by strumming, so is a good thing. This is not a good thing though it does do that. The problem with even the single trigger is that if the first barrel clicks and doesn’t fire the trigger automatically re-sets to the left barrel, so you still have the left barrel. Now since the right barrel didn’t fire, how do you know why it didn’t fire? If in the middle of trying to put down a mad buffalo you don't have time to inspect the dud, or unfired round! If it was simply a dud, and you re-load you are ready for shots the next two shorts, but what if the right barrel didn’t fire because of a dud but a broken firing pin, or a broken tumbler spring on that barrel. When you opened the rifle the trigger re-set to the right barrel again, and will not fire again till you pull it again to fore the left barrel. This could get you killed.

So my contention is, two triggers, non-auto safety, and consistency in operation regardless of why you are shooting a double rifle. All the things that habitually are fitted to the front indicates to me it is the primary trigger unless the need to pull the back one first for a special purpose is indicated.


Consistency is the key to long life where double rifles and dangerous game are concerned!

If pulling the rear trigger first floats your canoe then paddle on down stream! I pull the front trigger first and on having owned around thirty double rifles of most chambering from 310 rook rifles to 577NE, and shot dozens more, I have doubled exactly two double rifles, once each in my life.

Gentlemen what I do is not a law that everyone has to abide by, and all I’m trying to do is explain why the front trigger was meant to be the first shot in a double rifle, not that you have to do anything except what you want to do with YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE!


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MacD37 - you and I certainly agree about the value of auto safeties and single triggers! Again, thanks for the comprehensive insights.

I always pull the back trigger first. As to being regulated with front, rear, front rear, that has never made any difference in any of my many double rifles, English or American..they everyone shot the same either way..

Butch is right, most doubling on big bore doubles is caused by recoil and the trigger finger coming off the front trigger to the rear trigger firing the second barrel..Its an experience to say the least, and the bigger the bore the more exhilerating the experience is, it can be akin to suicide!

I love double set triggers on small caliber rifles, especially for running shots, but today my knuckles are swollen and the hands don't function quite as well as they used to and reaching for that front trigger is problematic as of late.

I have a neat 9x57 old Mauser with double sets and I'm thinking of replacing them with a timney or whatever.

Thank you MacD37, that was the point I was trying to get across too. Despite how hundreds of shooters may do it or how anyone for what ever reason wants to use the rear trigger first on a double, there should be no debate on the proper and intended sequence of firing a double shotgun or rifle, front trigger first.
The point made by subsailor74 about shooting driven game with the tighter choke first (rear trigger)is not relevant to the proper sequence of firing, that is only a neccessity of the occasion because the gun was not specifically made for driven game shooting. A single trigger U/O or S/S with selectors will perform this sort of duty or the same guns with screw in chokes will allow the right barrel or the under barrel to be used first with a tighter choke than the second barrel i.e. made for the job in hand and using the correct, as the manufacturer intended, firing sequence.

As to single triggers and the instance of a misfire or mechanical failure, yes I agree this is a valid concern if hunting dangerous game but then no more so than the hunter or PH using a bolt gun. Bell, Taylor, Jamieson, Hunter, Selby, etc, etc, all used bolt guns, some exclusivley, and they all survived and they did not seem to be too concerned about misfires or failure. In all my years of game shooting and trap/skeet shooting with factory and reloaded ammo, I have never experienced a misfire or mechanical problem with my Miroku single trigger U/O shotgun, nor have I with any bolt action I've owned and used.

I think the "having a second barrel instantly available" school of thought with double rifle users maybe a little over-rated. I wonder what the reaction time would be with a double shooter facing a charge and having a misfire or mechanical failure. I would be willing to bet that the shock of this unexpected event happening in the face of a charge would see that the second barrel would probably not get used or would be very delayed and the PH would get the shot in. I concede some very experience shooters may cope with this but they would be few and far between.

I have observed first hand shooters having misfires on the range and in the field and no-one I have seen has ever recovered quickly enough to reload or select the other barrel where it would have been effective if facing an animal charge. There is usually a stunned mullet look or a curse and swear before any action is taken and when it is, it is usually rushed making the second shot ineffective.

Just my observations and thoughts.

With all of the emotional postings on this thread (mostly from the front trigger folks), I am really surprised nobody took the time to quote Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", one of the true authoritative works out there on the subject. In the third edition, page 190, Graeme in fact states that double rifles are designed to be fired front trigger first. That should make all the front trigger guys ecstatic.
For me, I will stick to the back trigger first and know I will NEVER, EVER have an unintentional double discharge due to a sweaty hand slipping rearwards under the recoil of a full load .500NE or .470NE. My rifles are fitted to me, and I know how to shoot them. I just do not like to take any chances with my life of my hunting companion's life should a charge occur when hunting dangerous game. Shooting the back trigger first (for me) is a way of eliminating one of the variables,

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
With all of the emotional postings on this thread (mostly from the front trigger folks), I am really surprised nobody took the time to quote Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", one of the true authoritative works out there on the subject. In the third edition, page 190, Graeme in fact states that double rifles are designed to be fired front trigger first. That should make all the front trigger guys ecstatic.
For me, I will stick to the back trigger first and know I will NEVER, EVER have an unintentional double discharge due to a sweaty hand slipping rearwards under the recoil of a full load .500NE or .470NE. My rifles are fitted to me, and I know how to shoot them. I just do not like to take any chances with my life of my hunting companion's life should a charge occur when hunting dangerous game. Shooting the back trigger first (for me) is a way of eliminating one of the variables,

.............and that is the way you should use anything if that is the way it works best for you!.

As I said before I really don't care how anyone else works their rifle. The only reason I posted at all was because several poeple made the comment that nowhere had they ever read that the proper way to shoot a double rifle was front trigger first. I attempted to state the makers reason, evidenced by all the things the makers habitually place on the front trigger, for that recomendation, but quite evedently those reasons fell on deaf ears of those who seemingly thought I was trying to tell them how they should use their rifle. Only stating facts nothing more.

.................................................................I'm out! BYE!

As someone who has only just recently confirmed the order for their first double rifle I certainly appreciate the various experienced opinions expressed on these threads, even though they differ and especially so because they do.

For the information provided by those of you with great realms of double rifle experience I am truely greatful for your willingness to share.

In the end my own preferences and previous experience will dictate which style i use and am comfortable with.
So long as no-one tries to have me arrested if i choose to use the back trigger first

I put fingers on both triggers and pull them both at once. (I don't really, but just wanted to add that option to the myriad discussion points already raised.)