When I purchased my first double rifle from Butch Searcy several years ago, I visited Butch to get measured and shoot a couple of his fine rifles. Butch taught me to always pull the rear trigger first on a double rifle, and that way I would never experience my rifle doubling due to my trigger finger slipping back and pulling on an unfired barrel. This technique was unnatural to me as I shoot side by side shotguns with 2 triggers and almost always pull the front trigger first (the exception being the rare opportunity I have to shoot driven game, where I pull the back trigger to fire the tighter choked barrel first). Watching all of the Africa shows on TV, I appear to be in the minority here for shooting my double rifle. The way Butch taught me makes perfect sense, and I have never experienced a doubling event in the field ( and hope I never do).

So, how so the rest of you guys shoot your doubles and why do you shoot them that way? I am curious.

Mangwana

I think that most people pull the front trigger first. However, I am pleased to hear that Searcy suggests pulling the rear one first. Many years ago, Elmer Keith told me the same thing that Searcy says, pull the rear one first, and while rifle is in recoil, move to the front trigger. So, I began to do exactly that, and have been doing it for over 50 years---works for me!! I could never change now, even if I wanted to, due to habit learned through these years.

I've tried rear trigger first and it doesn't feel natural but like DRJ says, it would become comfortable with a lot of practice. It does make sense; even a little 9.3 x 74 will get your attention when it doubles while your shooting wearing just a t-shirt! (Not that I would admit to knowing from personal experience of course.)

After having doubled my Merkel in .470 and my Blaser in .470, I figure out that the back trigger should go first for me. The only problem I have is that the front trigger always cuts my finger when I shoot the back trigger. I still have to work at remembering the back one first but that is how it works for me.

This topic was discussed in detail a few months ago, including an imbedded poll. IIRC the results were about 1/3 Rear Trigger first with 2/3 being Front Trigger first. Someone could probably find it easily if interested in the results.

There seems to be a preference for whichever way you initially learned. I pull the front trigger first and don't think I could switch except for the instance where I have a soft in the right and solid in the left and need to shoot the solid first.

Rear trigger first should prevent a double tap from strumming but then I hear that many guns are set up with a lighter sear on the front making it more likely to double due to recoil if the rear is fired first.

Who knows? I think it's one of those situations where one should use the technique that works best for them and their equipment.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat. Just as long as the skin comes off!

Drop the frickin net! Front trigger first! End of story!!!

I am a front trigger man. But why do some set off the rear trigger, well here is my opinion. First off one one should be holding the rifle with crushing hand grips. Once it moves it will bite you and your finger will slide back and brush the trigger and low and behold you just doubled your gun.
When I purchased my rifle I started to shoot with the back trigger. Never felt comfortable with it. I went up to the front and the rest is history.
You have to become comfortable with your rifle and you also have to have a big enough hand to work the front to back way.
However, Shooting a big bore .500+ bore you may want to stay with the back trigger.

Mike

I am very disappointed to hear that Butch recommends pulling the rear trigger first.

It's just not how the double rifle or double shotgun was meant to be fired.

If your technique causes you to double your DR, then work on your technique. If a double rifle doubles without strumming from the user, then the gun has a problem.

Call me a dinasour if you want, but if there's anything in this world where tradition needs to be recognized, it's double rifles, and none of them were ever designed to be fired rear trigger first; no matter what Elmer Keith said; he was not quite the world expert on DR's.

Remember, Elmer was a little over 5 feet tall. He had hands like a 6 year old girl so he probably couldn't get a stout grip around the barrels of a DR to keep it from getting away from him and doubling.

There have been some very interesting responses so far. Those who favor the back trigger first do it to prevent accidental doubling. To me, this makes sense. Those who favor the front trigger first give little rationale for doing it that way. They just contend it was meant to be that way. If there are any technical or safety reasons for pulling the front trigger first, I would sincerely like to hear them.
Mangwana

I pull the rear trigger first because it seems like it is more accurate and is a more natural grip. The trigger hand/finger is not as stretched out as it is when pulling the front trigger.

Admiral,

The front trigger is usually set to a lighter pull than the rear. I'm not sure if Butch sets up his rifles this way, but if you'll check the triggers on your Chapuis, I think you'll find that to be the case. IMO, this is done in order to more accurately place the first shot, with the second shot intended as back up. Reading Africana, the technique was to fire the first barrel, then reload, holding the second in reserve, not blindly firing both barrels each time the rifle is used. They didn't have PH's to cover them.

Another reason for the difference in trigger pull that is sometimes mentioned is so that the recoil of the rifle doesn't cause the left barrel to fire. However, I agree that if firing the rear trigger first caused the right barrel to simultaneously discharge, there is a problem with the rifle. I think a properly functioning rifle should be capable of firing either trigger first, otherwise the argument of having a soft and solid available for trigger selection would be invalid. There does seem to be some evidence of this but the issue of placing the first shot with the smoother trigger, while backing up with the rear, being set to a higher pull in anticipation of the rifleman being in an excited state of mind due to potential duress of the situation, makes more sense to me.

On the UWS episode where Tony Makris doubled his 600NE the excuse given was that he pulled the rear trigger first which caused the right barrel to also fire due to the pull weight on the front trigger. I don't know. After watching this show week to week, and as I've posted elsewhere, I think there is a safety issue on this show due to lack of familiarity with the numerous weapons used.

When reading the old Africana books of Elephant hunters using doubles, they often speak of wearing out the right barrel. When considering purchasing an old English double, or any old double for that matter, experts usually advise to check the condition of the right barrel in great detail.

It seems that about 1/3 of double gun owners have learned the rear trigger first, but historically, the proper technique has been to fire the front trigger first.

Firing the rear first to prevent strumming indicates improper finger placement IMO. When shooting a heavy recoiling double, I fire the triggers with the crease of the first finger joint, not the tip of my finger as I do with a bolt or single shot. My finger hooks onto the trigger thereby preventing slipping back to strum the rear trigger.

I'm new to double rifles, having purchased my first last year. But I shoot front trigger first because after 50 years of shooting double shotguns with 2 triggers thats what I'm used to. No doubles yet.

Byron

Shooting a heavy double a 10bore loaded with 10 dram black + 980grain lead conical I take the rear trigger first. The recoil can make your finger slip if the front-trigger is pulled first to activate the rear trigger instantaniously.
Shooting smallbores + shotguns I`ll take the front trigger first.

Todd - very thoughtful response - thanks. I agree with you that Chapuis sets their rear trigger pull much heavier than the front. That said, I have been shooting my Chapuis with the rear trigger first, and my accuracy is fine.

My Searcy rifles have the trigger pulls set the same for both triggers. A lot of folks who are used to shooting a 2 trigger shotgun will shoot a double rifle the same way they shoot their shotgun....that is unless your are shooting driven game, in which the rear trigger (shooting the tighter choked barrel) is pulled first as the game is further away than for the second shot. Most of us here in the States do not shoot much driven game, however. So, it may just come down to what you are used to.

I also think that most if not all of the Makris malfunctions come under the category of "operator error". A double gun of any kind should not double discharge when either trigger is pulled first - I do not buy this as a mechanical issue unless the sears are worn to the point where the recoil causes the double discharge. If that is the case, the gun needs repair work done pronto! Also, if you are familiar with your rifle and practice enough, you would know this ahead of time.

At any rate, I know by pulling the rear trigger first on my large Searcy doubles (470 and 500), I will never have a double discharge .......and let's face it, a double discharge when hunting buffalo or elephant could to turn out to be very bad if you needed that second shot!.....and having that quick second shot is the reason we hunt with double rifles in the first place.
Mangwana

Gentlemen this, like many other things regarding double rifles, has been beaten to death over the years, and this thread will likely not solve the dispute to everyone’s satisfaction. With that said what I have to say this is certainly only my opinion, but I think can be backed by the words of those who used double rifle the most for their intended purpose and wrote about the subject, like Taylor and others.

Let me say at the start that I’m of the front trigger first club, for several different reasons that I think indicate that as the proper sequence.

As Todd stated above when looking to buy an older double rifle one should look at the right barrel very closely, because that barrel has historically been fired two or three times more than the left barrel. That alone would indicate that most fired the right barrel first.
This is because most times that barrel being fired first, and no other shot is needed the right barrel is simply reloaded, and so will be the barrel fired first next. If the first shot did not do the trick that barrel is reloaded and when the animal is encountered again the rifle is fully loaded for a one, two tap. Again with a double rifle having a non-selective single trigger they are always set to fire the right barrel first.

Most of the old elephant hunters used extractor double rifles, and so did not let the rifle run dry if they could help it, and the right barrel being to one fired and requiring the reload, so as to keep the eyes on the target while reloading and the hands on the rifle, the left hand thumb could be placed on the live round in the left barrel to prevent it being tossed out when the rifle was tipped over to dump the empty in the right barrel. So that the only reload would be the barrels fired without having to look at it. This so the rifle was always loaded in one barrel, only requiring the shooter to re-close the rifle if there was not enough time to finish the re-load before another shot was needed.

The next thing is most double rifles have the back trigger set with heavier pull weight than the front trigger. This serves two purposes, first and foremost is the light trigger pull will always be set on the trigger that is used for the most precise FIRST shot, and to avoid a strumming double discharge the back trigger is set with a heavier pull weight in case the finger accidently hits the back trigger under recoil it is less likely to set it off.

Some say this negates the use of a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other, but it doesn’t, because when firing the first shot there is time to use the trigger pull proficiently even with the heavier pull weight. This an option that is not usually used because most want the first shot on anything other than elephant or rhino to be a soft point, followed by all solids, and is again why the soft is almost always in the right barrel and the solid in the left.

If you ask most regulators of most double rifle makers which trigger they fire first when regulating, and the trigger adjuster why he sets the front trigger lighter than the back, and I have no doubt what the answer will be! I think the answer will be “Because that is the way they are supposed to be used to achieve the best accuracy with the first shot and to avoid a double discharge by strumming of the triggers under recoil of the first shot.
If Butch says to fire his rifle back trigger first, then when using one of his rifle do as you are told for best results, or have him build your rifle with a lighter pull on the front trigger. However when using any other brand that has the front trigger much lighter than the back trigger, the proper sequence is front trigger first, and learn to hold the rifle properly to avoid double discharge. Using the back trigger first is for special circumstances, like when shooting from severe angles, or when wanting a different bullet type for the first shot. All other times it is front trigger first for most double rifle shooters.

Even though the poll here indicated about two thirds here preferred the front trigger first, I would say that is because most double rifle shooters posting here are Americans which have a very short affair with double rifles for the most part. I think if a poll was taken where most were people from countries where most hunters have a long national history with double rifle use in the field, IMO, the pro front trigger first would be closer to 80-85% !

Nothing, however, is carved in stone, so do as it pleases you!

Personally, I did not think this was a dispute. I was not privied to the past discussions, and as such am interested in other double rifle shooter's opinions, including the rationale for their opinions. From the inputs to this thread, it appears some manufacturers intentionally set the rear trigger with a heavier pull to avoid double discharge when the front trigger is pulled first. To me, from an accuracy standpoint, it does not make any sense to have trigger pulls of two different weights on the same rifle. With practice, I am sure you can become accustomed to it, but two pulls of the same weight would seem to provide more consistent results, all other things being equal. I will stick to using the back trigger first on my double rifles and front trigger first on my double shotguns (which, by the way, have trigger pulls the same weight front and back) unless I am shooting driven game.

Thanks to all for sharing your inputs and insights on this topic.

Mangwana

As I just ordered a double this is interesting--Mac-I still haven't seen a reason for front trigger first other than--Thats the proper way.

The closest reason I have heard was the answer about driven game and whether is was a in-coming or out-going shot with shotguns.

So Gents--WHY front trigger first--tradition doesn't count.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
After having doubled my Merkel in .470 and my Blaser in .470, I figure out that the back trigger should go first for me. The only problem I have is that the front trigger always cuts my finger when I shoot the back trigger. I still have to work at remembering the back one first but that is how it works for me.

You might see if you could have a "articulated" front triger. Fancey word for a pivot so that the triger dosen't bight your finger.
Bill

No one has stated the obvious reason for front trigger first, which is, when you shoulder the gun and the finger reaches for the trigger it comes across the front one first! The front trigger is the quickest and easiest to reach in a hurry. The rear trigger is set further back and quite close to the rear of the trigger guard. so, if you have plenty of time to think then by all means pull whichever trigger you want to. However when you are in a hurry, I think you would be hard pressed to find that rear trigger.
Just my 2 cents, Peter.

quote:

Double Rifle Shooting Style

Tweed jacket and a pith helmet what?...........tally-ho!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
As I just ordered a double this is interesting--Mac-I still haven't seen a reason for front trigger first other than--Thats the proper way.

The closest reason I have heard was the answer about driven game and whether is was a in-coming or out-going shot with shotguns.

So Gents--WHY front trigger first--tradition doesn't count.

SSR

To pick up on some of what MacD37 said...most DR shooters are right handed, meaning that, while reloading, you will hold the open gun in your left hand and load cartridges with your right. The reason that the right barrel is meant to be fired first is that it is just naturally closer to your right hand, and thus marginally quicker to load than the left barrel. If the do-do were really to hit the fan, and your DR wasn't loaded at all, or you'd already fired both barrels and something big and mean with bad intentions was still coming at you, you might only have time to load one round before having to snap it shut and fire. In that case, you would want to load the right barrel, and that means the front trigger.

On a related point, I think that it is a more natural and smoother movement to simply slide your finger off of the front to the rear trigger for the second shot, than it is to try to extricate your finger out from behind the front trigger and then grope around for the front of it, at least under a high-stress, L&D situation.

I'm not saying this is the best way, at least not for everyone. I'm just trying to speculate on the genesis of it all.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
After having doubled my Merkel in .470 and my Blaser in .470, I figure out that the back trigger should go first for me. The only problem I have is that the front trigger always cuts my finger when I shoot the back trigger. I still have to work at remembering the back one first but that is how it works for me.

You might see if you could have a "articulated" front triger. Fancey word for a pivot so that the triger dosen't bight your finger.
Bill

If the front trigger is "biting" your finger when you fire the rear trigger, your length of pull is too short. This was happening to me as well until I added a 1" spacer, thereby increasing LOP. Thereafter, no more problems!

If you ask which trigger should be fired first and tradition does not count as an answer then my response would be "which trigger do you want to pull first?" After all, when you are about to be turned into that mung between the toes of a buffalo, rhino, elephant, bear, etc, under great stress you will do what comes naturaly.

So what you should try is do a fifty yard sprint to the firing line, shoulder your double rifle and without thinling pull the first trigger that your trigger finger encounters, followed by a second shot from the other barrel.

My bet is, unless you have an abnormal set of hands or arms, your finger will naturally gravitate to the front trigger.

But hey, it's your gun and you can do whatever you want. Just make sure you know what your instinctive reaction is. After all, everything is fine and dandy when we have lots of time for the first shot; but when the sh*t goes South, that's when reaction takes over.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

Let me add a caviate to my statement above.

The above applys if the gun fits you properly. If the stock is too long, short, etc, all bets are off.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
If you ask which trigger should be fired first and tradition does not count as an answer then my response would be "which trigger do you want to pull first?" After all, when you are about to be turned into that mung between the toes of a buffalo, rhino, elephant, bear, etc, under great stress you will do what comes naturaly.

So what you should try is do a fifty yard sprint to the firing line, shoulder your double rifle and without thinling pull the first trigger that your trigger finger encounters, followed by a second shot from the other barrel.

My bet is, unless you have an abnormal set of hands or arms, your finger will naturally gravitate to the front trigger.

But hey, it's your gun and you can do whatever you want. Just make sure you know what your instinctive reaction is. After all, everything is fine and dandy when we have lots of time for the first shot; but when the sh*t goes South, that's when reaction takes over.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

CD,

You may be on to something there. For me, no one told me which trigger to pull first. The only instruction I received was to not put two fingers inside the trigger guard, but use only the normal trigger finger. That bit of advise was received several years before I finally bought my first DR.

When I got my rifle, it was just natural to me to shoot the front trigger first. I really didn't even think about it and when I heard that some guys shoot the rear first, I remember thinking, "well that can't be right".

I wonder how many rear trigger first shooters took to that technique as a result of someone instructing them to do so instead of doing it that way out of "instinct".

quote:

On a related point, I think that it is a more natural and smoother movement to simply slide your finger off of the front to the rear trigger for the second shot, than it is to try to extricate your finger out from behind the front trigger and then grope around for the front of it, at least under a high-stress, L&D situation.

Ontario hit it right in the bullseye! Sliding one's hand and trigger finger backwards allows the finger to easily and more efficiently find the back trigger. Applies to rifles and shotguns. With that said, whatever method you practice and become proficient at is what you should use.

I find the discussion about "what is natural" and what is "the right way" to shoot a double very interesting. Personally , I disagree with these contentions. A double shotgun or double rifle, properly fitted to the individual, will measure the length of pull to between the 2 triggers. So, with a properly fitted gun, is it more natural to reach forward for the front trigger or back for the rear? The technical reasons for pulling the back trigger first make most sense to me. If the rifle is properly fitted and is in proper working order ie no worn sears in a vintage double where the right barrel was shot significantly more often than the left (as described in many accounts in this thread), pulling the back trigger first ensures no double discharge. Given the same fitted rifle in proper working order, slipping your finger back after firing the front trigger first due to sweaty hands or improper gun mounting still has a reasonable likelihood of a double discharge. One additional comment - I have experienced less felt recoil firing the left barrel of my large doubles (470NE and 500NE) than the right. Other double rifle shooters I have talked to have mentioned a similar experience. If this is the case, it seems that firing the left barrel first (for a right handed shooter) would leave one better lined up for a second barrel shot. If I had a worn vintage double, you better believe I would be a front trigger guy.....because there are technical or material reasons for doing so. My overall goal is to make (as close as possible) 100% sure that the second shot from my double rifle will be available in a charge situation. Whatever technique works for you, please continue to employ it and live to tell about that charge!
Mangwana

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74: A double shotgun or double rifle, properly fitted to the individual, will measure the length of pull to between the 2 triggers.
Mangwana

With all due respect Sir, just when I thought I had heard it all......

Front trigger first is how I learned on SxS shotguns more than 4 decades ago and it's how I shoot double rifles. Just seems more natural to slide my trigger finger rearward than to take it out of the trigger guard and reach forward. Plus I think I would be concerned that maybe I didn't reach far enough forward and had my finger wrapped once again around the rear most trigger.

Wouldn't be a problem against those dangerous clay pigeons but maybe so if I were facing a lion, leopard or elephant.

Just my opinion and recent experiences wouldn't have me change my practice at all.

Bill,
I am currently in contact with Butch on installing an articulated trigger. Both of my .470's cut my trigger finger when I pull the back trigger. The Blaser doesn't offer them but Butch will install them.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Bill,
I am currently in contact with Butch on installing an articulated trigger. Both of my .470's cut my trigger finger when I pull the back trigger. The Blaser doesn't offer them but Butch will install them.

Pagosa, again, if your front trigger is biting your finger when you shoot the rear trigger, your LOP is too short! My Merkel did the same thing even with an articulated trigger. I ran this scenario by some very knowledgable DR shooters and everyone told me the same thing. LOP is too short. I sent the rifle in for service, had a 1" spacer added to lengthen the LOP and have not had the front trigger touch my finger while firing the rear trigger since.

You can verify this quite easily by purchasing one of those slip on recoil pads for about $20. Give it a try. I'll bet that solves your problem.

Rick - I agree with Todd. Your LOP seems too short. If you have never been measured for your rifles in the past, this is a good time to start! Get the right dimensions and have Butch install a leather covered pad vice an articluated trigger.
Mangwana

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74: A double shotgun or double rifle, properly fitted to the individual, will measure the length of pull to between the 2 triggers.
Mangwana

With all due respect Sir, just when I thought I had heard it all......

Absolutely! A properly fitted double rifle the lingth of pull is measured to the front trigger, not between them! Measured between the triggers the lingth of pull would be too long for the front trigger.

The reaosn a double rifle has the lingth of pull, the lighter front treigger, and the set feature if it has one is always on the front trigger is because the front trigger is the MAIN trigger on a double rifle with the back trigger being heavier pull, and behind the front trigger is because it is natural to move the trigger finger back after the first shot to the back trigger for the second shot as the rifle comes down from recoil.

The re=loading of one or both barrels has nothing to do with which hand you reload with. One never re-loads one barrel with a charge in progress. The re-loading of one barrel is when it is necessary to move for the next shot, and either barrel can be loaded while that move is being made. With a charge in progress you do not re-load either barrel till you have to.

I'm right handed and I load with my left hand, and my trigger hand never leaves the pistol grip. I also do not reload from a belt for shots three and four, but from the back of my trigger hand or a wrist band where I carry two rounds and reload both barrels similtaineously holding the two cartridges like the picture at the top of the double rifle forum and at the bottom of my post!

Many re-load from a belt or butt stock carrier, and IMO, that is the slowest way to re-load a double rifle.

However since I'm not king load any way you want, and pull the back trigger first if you want, but I'd bet my next retirement check I can load faster than you and get back on target and fore shot three faster than just about anyone who loads from a belt or butt stock carrier.

Anybody who cares to try me on that come to the next HOOT & SHOOT in the spring, down at Houston, Tx

Mac, 1937 was some time ago, but you're still "Da Man" !

Mac,

I had forgotten about the set trigger feature, if installed, always being on the front trigger, and never on the rear. That to me is a pretty solid indication of how double rifles were meant to be fired. Front trigger first!!

I must admit that I have read a number of articles stating a double length of pull is measured from the front trigger. Some even say the back of the front trigger. That said, when I was measured for my first double shotgun in England, the shop made point of telling me the LOP was measured between the front and rear. The arguement made that measuring between the the triggers would make the LOP too short for the front trigger would also mean the LOP is too long for the rear. So, if I was taken up by aliens, I guess I landed in England (not too bad a place for double shotguns or rifles). As far as a set trigger goes, all I have seen are on the front. Also, all I have seen are on smaller caliber doubles that are often fitted with scopes.....and putting a scope on a double rifle is another one of those heated issues that sparks a lot of debate. I use them on my smaller doubles on occaision, but they are sort of like an outboard motor on a canoe. You can put one one, but it just never looks right. Thanks again for all the input to this thread. I really enjoyed the responses.
Mangwana

My guess would be that firing the right barrel first began with the invention of double barrel flint shotguns. This pre-dates choke boring by many years so open vs tight barrels didn't enter into it back then. Double flint guns are very wide across the breech, even in smaller gauges. In order to shoot quickly, right handed shooters have to cock the right hammer with the thumb, shoot and then repeat with the left. Right barrel first just seems logical. Of course, with pointing dogs you could walk up with both hammers back. If you look at early flint guns, the front trigger is usually very short in order to facilitate moving quickly to the next shot.

With choke boring and the ability to take a missed bird with a second shot at longer range, or a second bird, the makers choked the left or second barrel as a matter of course.

That's my theory and I'm stickin to it!!

Of course, all this stuff was a long time before people started shooting .600 nitro rifles so if back trigger first works for you, then go for it!

I seems obvious to me that big bore double rifles were designed to fire the right barrel first from the front trigger and left barrel second from the back trigger, at least for right handed shooters. Rifles built for left handed shooters have the top lever moving to the left vs to the right for right handed shooters. Also for right handed shooters the front trigger is in the right front of the trigger guard and the rear trigger in the left rear position. It is just the opposite for left handed rifles. Ever wonder why they are not one directly behind the other? Being on the right front makes it easier to find and reach and having the rear trigger to the left reduces the chances of hitting it if your finger slips when firing the front trigger. Getting hit by the front trigger was a problem recognized by the gun makers and that is why they invented the articulated trigger system.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74: when I was measured for my first double shotgun in England, the shop made point of telling me the LOP was measured between the front and rear.

Admiral, please advise what "shop" or maker. I wish to stay clear of them!