I would like to sell,Price IS Negotiable fellow Big Bore Nuts!It is a "Duzzie" and a True Nitro Proof Gun,over a 100 years old,looks like 10 and will hit golf balls at 50 yds!(Not to mention Charging Elephants,Buffalo's and HummVee's!) : )

Have you got a web site link ?

PM me regrading the DRs

Thanks,

Jeff

Basically this is a BPE, nitro proofed to the lightest nitro load, isn't the price a wee bit steep. I have a Holland Hammerless Backaction .577,made for the Nizam of Hyderdab, fully engraved cased, tools, moulde, and heavier. I could only hope of attaining your price one day.
Good Luck!

JAZ

I thought the same when I saw the load and
just hadn't had time to check out the books.

Yes, I think the price is a bit steep for what
it is.

Looking at the proof marks, is the 83 overstamped over a 7 something?

Can't see them clearly enough.

The WR Records would show.

It's got CORDITE so who knows.

The proof marks do look stamped over a lighter load. The weight of the gun tells the story, 9&1/2lbs.....thats a nitro for black load for sure. Beautiful though.
Steve

The engraving is super.

I suppose if you want something of historical value, pricing is anyone's guess.

Just my view, but if you are looking at a hunting rifle that will get the job done you could do so for a lot less.

And if you had to have a WR, the new box locks are priced lower than the rifle at Cabelas. That of course would not include engraving anywhere near the Cabelas rifle. WR only offers box locks in up to 500 NE, so it is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. But you would have a rifle with a weight proportionate to the caliber - 9.5 pounds is lighter that almost all 470 NE's out there.

To get a WR in 577, you would have to step up to a drop lock or side lock - and be prepared to drop a minimum of $80,000. Of course, you would not be limited to 650 grain loads.

That is a beautiful double, though.

Thanks for the compliments,but it has been checked out by the Experts(not me) and it IS and Always was a NITRO Cordite Gun,NOT a Black Powder Conversion,NOT!Nothing is stampped over and we have Westley paperwork to boot saying so.If it was a BP Conversion,it wouldnt be worth 20K.Yes,It is a .577-3" Case 650gr Tropical load gun,Hence its much lighter weight,but she handles like a dream,points like a fine English bird gun!Fully Engraved,Bolted Safety,3rd Fastner,EJECTORS! and Rare Night Sight w/folding Hood.The 26" barrels get the velocity to around 1900 and with 650 solids,will penetrate near as much as the 750's,(I have that too)It is 4 pounds lighter than my A/N 577,but drops buff just as quick.."Dead is Dead"! (It Will shoot 750's too,just a Tad slower).I hate to sell,but I now have swung to MegaBore Bolt Guns as light as this.Price is negotiable,but,she is A Genuine 100% Rare FIVE SEVEN SEVEN Westley Richards that is over 100 years old,but shows like a newborn!Thanks for Looking!

Hmmmmm,For Sale?Pics? : )

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
Basically this is a BPE, nitro proofed to the lightest nitro load, isn't the price a wee bit steep. I have a Holland Hammerless Backaction .577,made for the Nizam of Hyderdab, fully engraved cased, tools, moulde, and heavier. I could only hope of attaining your price one day.
Good Luck!

Nice gun I saw it when it was for sale a couple of years ago.

Ed

]
"If it was a BP Conversion,it wouldnt be worth 20K."

Are you saying that the value of the gun is in the rarity of its original proof marks?

SafriKid

Thanks for that explantion. Saves a lot of Speculation.

The British gun trade did some wonderful work around that time.

ForSale? - yes. At $15K less than your Westley asking price, it is yours!!

9 1/2 lbs 650 @ 1900 wow that is between 90 and 100 ft/lbs of recoil. Hope there is a retinal specialist in the house . Beautiful gun though.
Good luck with the sale.

With the rifles he shoots I think he must be made of titanium

Please send me a Full Description and photos to Daqridude@aol.com Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
ForSale? - yes. At $15K less than your Westley asking price, it is yours!!

Its a "Pussycat",Really!My 8 3/4pd 600AHR,now thats a Pit Bull!..Actually,the one that hurt the most was my .378WBY Custom at 7pds!It Punched your shoulder,where these realy Big uns' just shove you around! Like this Lil 4 Bore : )http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHfzdQ8HWoI

quote:

Originally posted by els:
9 1/2 lbs 650 @ 1900 wow that is between 90 and 100 ft/lbs of recoil. Hope there is a retinal specialist in the house . Beautiful gun though.
Good luck with the sale.

SAFARIKID,

Did you not get my PM regarding your gun for sale???


Please follow-up,

Thanks,

Jeff

Oops - Just realized that this is not a drop-lock.

Not interested - nice gun though.

Thanks anyway,

JW

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
The proof marks do look stamped over a lighter load. The weight of the gun tells the story, 9&1/2lbs.....thats a nitro for black load for sure. Beautiful though.
Steve

We've been through this in an earlier thread on this rifle. It is not a converted BPE, nor is it a Nitro for Black rifle. It is original nitro proof built for Eley's Light Cordite .577 load. These were intended as tiger rifles.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

SafariKid

I hope you have learned your lesson about posting anything unique on this forum. As you can see it is complete with fools and wannabe fools. With 4-5 exceptions (and they know who they are) most of the comments about your rifle are posted by ignorant pseudo experts with no actual information or knoweldge.

I had held out hope this Forum would rise above the usual 'one time only expert' found here but, alas, this seems to be in vain.

Good Luck selling your Rifle and I hope it finds a deserving and appreciative new caretaker.

400 Nitro and Mickey1..Thankyou both! Safarikid

Tiger rifles work on buffalo too.

And everything else as welll....AND with less recoil!!!

Nice rifle - real nice,

JW

Very steep indeed! This is for the 650 grain bullet and will not bring the price he is asking.

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
Basically this is a BPE, nitro proofed to the lightest nitro load, isn't the price a wee bit steep. I have a Holland Hammerless Backaction .577,made for the Nizam of Hyderdab, fully engraved cased, tools, moulde, and heavier. I could only hope of attaining your price one day.
Good Luck!

ROLEX FAN,I may not get the asking price,but that IS negotiable...But,You can not fairly compare My Nitro Double to ANY BPE (black powder express) as there are worlds of differences in resale values...The BP guns just dont go for much,no matter the maker...Just my 2 cents worth : )

quote:

Originally posted by rolexfan:
Very steep indeed! This is for the 650 grain bullet and will not bring the price he is asking.

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
Basically this is a BPE, nitro proofed to the lightest nitro load, isn't the price a wee bit steep. I have a Holland Hammerless Backaction .577,made for the Nizam of Hyderdab, fully engraved cased, tools, moulde, and heavier. I could only hope of attaining your price one day.
Good Luck!

The gun is what the gun is. We can debate whether the exact same gun made in 1902 before nitro proofs were used vs a light load nitro would be worth double. What Gatsby said was true, does the proof marks bring the value.To each his own.

What I take exception to is a loudmouth like Mickey 1 who berrates others opinions. Talk about overpricing. Lets talk about the 10 bore Paradox at Westley Richards. The rumor is that that was an old "beater" plain paradox, brought over here from Australia, that was redone and made to look like the Nizam's gun pictured in the Holland "Royal" book. Now only a pseudo idiot would buy a replica at the price of an original. Or is it being sold as an original?Care to comment Mickey 1?

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
We can debate whether the exact same gun made in 1902 before nitro proofs were used vs a light load nitro

Pure nonsense, based on an uninformed premise. That isn't the debate at all, and there is no such comparison to be made.

Nitro Proof was in use in the UK from 1887. The marks on this gun illustrate the marks used to indicate original nitro proof during that period. A new mark, crown over "NP", was added in 1904 as a SUPPLEMENT to the Nitro Proof marks ALREADY IN USE. This mark causes some novices to erroneously assume that Nitro Proof was neither used nor marked prior to 1904, which isn't true.

This gun was built in 1900 and bears the original Nitro Proof marks that are correct for that time. The same gun built after the execution date of the 1904 rules would bear the new marks introduced by those rules. The guns would be the same - same cartridge, same load, same proof - the proof marks would be different, but would still have exactly the same meaning. There would be no difference in value whatsoever.

quote:

What I take exception to is a loudmouth like Mickey 1 who berrates others opinions.

Re-read Mickey's post. I think yours above may be illustrative of what he was referring to. At least he is not an ignorant loudmouth.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 nitro
I am not debating what you have wrote about proof marks. My point was regarding the value of the guns. You have, inadvertantly , made my point.

I personally don't care if SAFARIKID askes 200K for his rifle - IT IS afterall his to do with what he likes. Furthermore I think that it is a bit sophmoric to debase and overly-critique his rifle. Plain and simple low.

He wants to sell and has on 2 or more occasions indicated that he is willing to "negotiate" the price.

So, amaeteur gun buyers, here's some sage advice: If you don't like the price for whatever reason, take that up with the seller (in private) not with the whole world.

What some of you have done here is akin to standing in front of the WR / Cabela's botth at the DSC / Reno SCI shows and yelling at the top of your lungs just how you don't like certain aspects about this man's rifle.

Show some class.

JW

500 grains...Correct,they do work well on Buff and Elephant too! I have 2 fellow African hunters who have used them on above beast and claim penetration was incredible...That velocity range is "where its at",kinda like a 460 Weatherby many times has penetrated LESS than a 45/70 (same bullets),as to much velocity IS Not a good thing (something to do with hydrostatic shock or something??)I am sure someone can explain it better than me...We have even had 400grain .475 Handgun bullets out penetrate 500NE slugs at a mere 1250fps! Doesnt seem right to me,but its true!So my point is,the 650s WILL do the job too!Heck,I think I have convinced myself to keep the sweet lil Westley,to bad I am also hung up on these Megabore Bolt Guns now!The problem is I can only take 2 rifles on my Safaris and the 4 bore will Always be one,so I prefer a "Light" (.600OK or .700OK)for the 2nd "Beastslayer"!
ALso,where is this beautiful picture taken of the mountains?? I want to go there!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Tiger rifles work on buffalo too.

AGREED! Thankyou!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
I personally don't care if SAFARIKID askes 200K for his rifle - IT IS afterall his to do with what he likes. Furthermore I think that it is a bit sophmoric to debase and overly-critique his rifle. Plain and simple low.

He wants to sell and has on 2 or more occasions indicated that he is willing to "negotiate" the price.

So, amaeteur gun buyers, here's some sage advice: If you don't like the price for whatever reason, take that up with the seller (in private) not with the whole world.

What some of you have done here is akin to standing in front of the WR / Cabela's botth at the DSC / Reno SCI shows and yelling at the top of your lungs just how you don't like certain aspects about this man's rifle.

Show some class.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
400 nitro
I am not debating what you have wrote about proof marks. My point was regarding the value of the guns. You have, inadvertantly , made my point.

If that's the case then you still don't know what this rifle is, which your first post clearly showed.

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
...made in 1902 before nitro proofs were used...

In any case, you clearly did not know the proof marks, or you would not have posted what you did.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

What has been said here that is so disparaging to the Safarikids rifle? That it is light for a 577 and it is not a droplock? The Forum has a claasified section that should not be open for discussion but it was posted here.

Safarikid,
You made a statement that a rifle similar to yours with original black powder proofs that had been nitro proofed would be worth less than 25% of the value of your gun. I believe that is an arguable statement.

Mr. Wemmer
You need to heed your own advice! You inform the forum of your interest in the gun, then almost immediately inform them of your non interest because it is not a droplock. I am unable to read your intent, so are you saying you are only interested in droplocks or are you saying for the price you thought it was a droplock?

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
The gun is what the gun is. We can debate whether the exact same gun made in 1902 before nitro proofs were used vs a light load nitro would be worth double. What Gatsby said was true, does the proof marks bring the value.To each his own.

What I take exception to is a loudmouth like Mickey 1 who berrates others opinions. Talk about overpricing. Lets talk about the 10 bore Paradox at Westley Richards. The rumor is that that was an old "beater" plain paradox, brought over here from Australia, that was redone and made to look like the Nizam's gun pictured in the Holland "Royal" book. Now only a pseudo idiot would buy a replica at the price of an original. Or is it being sold as an original?Care to comment Mickey 1?

I think that others have pretty well described your intentions and knowledge so no need for me to pile on.

I am sorry I hurt your feelings.

As to the Paradox you mention, why not call WR and ask them yourself?

Gatsby,

For your own edification (and mine)I do care to inform you that I collect only drop-lock WR guns, thus my post copied below.

"Oops - Just realized that this is not a drop-lock.

Not interested - nice gun though.

Thanks anyway,

JW"

And, dare I ask, where within my post did I "connote" a lesser value as related to this gun not being a Drop-lock?

Looks like to me that you sir are the one that had made that assertion.


JW

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:
"If it was a BP Conversion, it wouldnt be worth 20K"

Are you saying that the value of the gun is in the rarity of its original proof marks?

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:
Safarikid,
You made a statement that a rifle similar to yours with original black powder proofs that had been nitro proofed would be worth less than 25% of the value of your gun. I believe that is an arguable statement.

No, it isn't. Re-proving a black powder proof game gun to nitro can enhance value sometimes, but this isn't a shotgun. The reverse is true with double rifles. A BPE wasn't built to be a nitro, and the practice of re-proving them to nitro is a mistake that the market hammers pretty hard. Compared to original nitros, the market discounts BPEs and NFBs substantially to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
Basically this is a BPE, nitro proved to the lightest nitro load

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
The weight of the gun tells the story, 9&1/2lbs.....thats a nitro for black load for sure.

This if factually incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
I have a Holland Hammerless Backaction .577, made for the Nizam of Hyderadab (sic), fully engraved cased, tools, moulde, and HEAVIER.

Well, yeah, a typical .577 BPE. Not rare in any way, and never will be. Apples and oranges.

First off, BPE proof and NFB proof are one and the same, which many don't seem to understand. This rifle is neither, nor is it a transitional piece between BPE/NFB and full nitro - the 100 Cordite/750 grain bullet .577 NEs were already being built when this gun was made.

The maximum Nitro for Black loads for the .577 3" Black Powder Express used a 650 grain metal base (gas check) lead bullet that Eley and Kynoch loaded over 77 and 75 grains Cordite respectively. This rifle was built for the .577 3" Nitro Express Light Cordite cartridge - 83 grains Cordite and a 650 grain nickel jacketed bullet (NFBs were never loaded with jacketed bullets, with a few extremely rare exceptions). This cartridge is a step up from the .577 BPE/NFB.

Some have said that the weight of the piece make it obvious that it is a converted BPE. That isn't true. The .577 BPEs are usually HEAVIER than this.

I wonder how many actually had a close look at the photos. This is an unusual model that Westley made only a tiny handful of, and I can't remember seeing a similar model from another English maker. When you handle one of these, it's obvious that Westley went to great pains to build it as light as possible for caliber - even the photos of the ribs tell that tale clearly - which also explains the cartridge choice. This was built as a special purpose piece - a lightweight tiger smasher. As such, this model would have been rare to begin with, and the crisis precipitated by the errors in the "ban" enforcement a few years later ensured that far fewer were built than would perhaps have been otherwise.

Mickey's use of the term "unique" is spot on. It's a weird duck....strange, unusual, fine, and RARE. I can remember seeing three in 20 years, but I think I may have seen the same one twice. Moreover, this gun appears to have been built to a high standard of quality and looks to be in fine shape.

In the British DR market, "rare" does not automatically equate to value (it isn't a Patterson or a Walker), but sometimes it does. Given condition, caliber, quality, and rarity...well, I'm sure SafariKid has a number in mind. True comparable sales are too far between to have any utility. Only a willing buyer and a willing seller, both well educated on the piece, can set a final price. While I make no argument as to it's market value, it's silly to compare it to something that isn't comparable at all, as has been done here. Apples and oranges.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

In the British DR market, "rare" does not automatically equate to value (it isn't a Patternson or a Walker), but sometimes it does. Given condition, caliber, quality, and rarity

Amen...I have a really nice Purdey .369. Near perfect condition, extra finish, pre-war...worth good money...BUT, the same thing in .375 H&H flanged would easily top it on the market by 40-50%. Even with the .369 being a hundred times more rare (23 Purdey guns made in this caliber in all) and it's almost exactly the same thing as the .375 H&H flanged.

Your point is absolutely correct, rare doesn't always mean more valuable (does sometimes). - Kudos for some sensible dialogue being injected into this thread!

I think we can conclude that given the rarity and diversity of pre-war DRs....each and every one is priced based on a gun by gun analysis....there is no "Blue book" so to speak.

JW