quote:

I am not going to be near elephants with a 450/400.

There was a recent thread here about what rifles PHs use. I don't remember the 450/400 being mentioned. They were nearly all using the 470 or 500. BUT, fact is, if you look around at the available info, the consensus has long been that it IS adequate assuming proper ammo and proper shot placement. You see the statement made, a 400 grainer in the right place is worth far more than 1000 in the wrong place.

Taylor certainly thought the 450/400 could do for elephants.

Others do too, like these folks - http://sportsafield.com/conten...caliber-double-rifle

Having been a 400 owner, I can tell you I wouldn't hesitate to take mine up against anything that walks.

..unfortunately, I've to put it up for sale...a Searcy Classic...you can find it over on GI. I loved that gun.

Pondoro,maybe yes maybe no but I am a follower of J Hunter when it comes to any question power related on DG.I don't trust the others at 100 percent not even Nyschens.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

I am not going to be near elephants with a 450/400.

There was a recent thread here about what rifles PHs use. I don't remember the 450/400 being mentioned. They were nearly all using the 470 or 500. BUT, fact is, if you look around at the available info, the consensus has long been that it IS adequate assuming proper ammo and proper shot placement. You see the statement made, a 400 grainer in the right place is worth far more than 1000 in the wrong place.

Taylor certainly thought the 450/400 could do for elephants.

Others do too, like these folks - http://sportsafield.com/conten...caliber-double-rifle

Having been a 400 owner, I can tell you I wouldn't hesitate to take mine up against anything that walks.

..unfortunately, I've to put it up for sale...a Searcy Classic...you can find it over on GI. I loved that gun.

I never trusted or liked Taylor.

On ele I trust a 458 Lott or 500NE and a 500gr plus Woodleigh or Hornady solid.

Trusted what he wrote...don't have to know someone personally not to trust them.

Shootaway...what calibre do you use on and ......??

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

I am not going to be near elephants with a 450/400.

There was a recent thread here about what rifles PHs use. I don't remember the 450/400 being mentioned. They were nearly all using the 470 or 500. BUT, fact is, if you look around at the available info, the consensus has long been that it IS adequate assuming proper ammo and proper shot placement. You see the statement made, a 400 grainer in the right place is worth far more than 1000 in the wrong place.

Taylor certainly thought the 450/400 could do for elephants.

Others do too, like these folks - http://sportsafield.com/conten...caliber-double-rifle

Having been a 400 owner, I can tell you I wouldn't hesitate to take mine up against anything that walks.

..unfortunately, I've to put it up for sale...a Searcy Classic...you can find it over on GI. I loved that gun.

I think we are talking about a hunters rifle here , not a PH rifle.
Shootaway , to say that the hunter is going to have to stop a charge is a little vain. In all honesty , few hunters today can do that , even with the biggest of calibers. Which is why the ( hopefully ) experienced PH is there. Then again I have seen Elephant charges stopped by a 9.3 x 62 in the hands of an experienced hand- the elephant didn't know what the energy table said. That said your personal shooting abilities might be far superior to the average hunter's.
The 450/400 with proper bullets will do just fine for the hunter in question.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Shootaway...what calibre do you use on and ......??

458 lott but your still a loser

quote:

I never trusted or liked Taylor.

My thoughts are the same per Grenadier. But I'll say it differently.

Why? What's not to trust about him?

Did you read his book from cover to cover? One of the best things out of Africa I've ever read. Priceless in fact. What on earth's there not to like?

..please don't tell us you didn't trust Bell either...

I read three of his books.He thinks he is an expert on everything.There is just too much out there hunting and shooting related to be an expert on everything.

The main one on African rifles deserves its "priceless" rating. I don't see how a real argument could be made against that. It's stood the test of time. And Taylor's an icon in this genre.

I don't recall him professing a knowledge of all. Just the opposite on many things, such as cartridges he admitted no or limited experience with.

Btw, is your Searcy one of the early Browning actions? Just curious. It looks a good bit different from mine.

No,I bought it new last year.How does it look different than yours? Taylor is full of BS on shooting related topics so I imagine what other BS he is throwing.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
No,I bought it new last year.How does it look different than yours? Taylor is full of BS on shooting related topics so I imagine what other BS he is throwing.

I can live with Taylor being full of BS as long as we in the double-shooting-Africa hunting world have you to rely on and look up to as a replacement. Your next book is out when? I'm sure a narrative on how to shoot a cow buffalo will out sell Pondoro by several multiples.
Cal

We can only hope that George will start practicing regularly in anticipation of his hunt in March and posting some more target photos. They are so entertaining . . . I mean informative.

I don't think shooting practice is what shitaway needs. Target identification seems to be his primary problem with hunting. That and muzzle control, OCD, sociopathy, ETC ETC ETC....

I have made some changes to my lifestyle.I am working on making even more changes.I so far have been successful and find myself with much more energy.I know I have a hunt coming up.I don`t know if I will go back to shooting regularly.It takes up alot of my time and I believe the recoil takes a toll.I might buy a open sight 22lr and practice with that.I am spending most of my time with my business and being healthy mentally and physically-getting a good night sleep,breathing outdoor air,exposing my skin to sunlight,no unwanted stress,detoxing,thinking about the future(and the past too), that kind of thing.Oh yes...I got to shoot the Searcy again soon.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
No,I bought it new last year.How does it look different than yours? Taylor is full of BS on shooting related topics so I imagine what other BS he is throwing.

I can live with Taylor being full of BS as long as we in the double-shooting-Africa hunting world have you to rely on and look up to as a replacement. Your next book is out when? I'm sure a narrative on how to shoot a cow buffalo will out sell Pondoro by several multiples.
Cal

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
No,I bought it new last year.How does it look different than yours? Taylor is full of BS on shooting related topics so I imagine what other BS he is throwing.

I can live with Taylor being full of BS as long as we in the double-shooting-Africa hunting world have you to rely on and look up to as a replacement. Your next book is out when? I'm sure a narrative on how to shoot a cow buffalo will out sell Pondoro by several multiples.
Cal

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

We dream of little else.

quote:

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

Shootaway:
I look forward to your book.
Please use a spell check.
Please have it proofed for grammar.
Don't include any English garbage in it.
Fill the pages with your stories and experiences only--nothing from current PHs with 40 years of experience who shoot vintage doubles.
I think I speak for all here when I state I will empty my book shelves and replace them all with only your work.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
IMHO the .375 Flanged is the way to go. The H&H vs flanged difference in velocity is negligible in the real world. The ballistic coefficient of this bullet is beautiful. It will kill everything and is better flat shooting than the 450/400.

Actually this has some merit especially with lighter weight new technology bullets. Perhaps a 2" shorter barrel would allow for a lighter weight for the 375 Fl Mag cartridge.

My 375 Fl Mag barrels regulate a bit over 2400fps with Woodleigh 300gn bullets. Haven't tried lighter weight yet.

Has anyone done this?

Cheers, Chris

A good friend has just returned from a buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. He used his custom double rifle in .375 Flanged Magnum which I had to re-regulate for him because the builder had done a terrible job of it. Tom took two buffalo, each stone dead with one shot. Nothing wrong with the .375 Fl Mag if you put a 300 grain A-Frame in the right spot!

quote:

I had to re-regulate for him because the builder had done a terrible job of it.

Manufacturer's name or it didn't happen!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

Shootaway:
I look forward to your book.
Please use a spell check.
Please have it proofed for grammar.
Don't include any English garbage in it.
Fill the pages with your stories and experiences only--nothing from current PHs with 40 years of experience who shoot vintage doubles.
I think I speak for all here when I state I will empty my book shelves and replace them all with only your work.
Cal

Cal,here is a little test for you.Which gunmaker made this action or rifle?
[URL= ]DR[/URL]

...they couldn't eliminate that tell-tale faint line on the barrels or the positioning of the hardware on the side...among other things.

Shootaway, what were the examples of Taylor's "BS"? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

Shootaway:
I look forward to your book.
Please use a spell check.
Please have it proofed for grammar.
Don't include any English garbage in it.
Fill the pages with your stories and experiences only--nothing from current PHs with 40 years of experience who shoot vintage doubles.
I think I speak for all here when I state I will empty my book shelves and replace them all with only your work.
Cal

Cal,here is a little test for you.Which gunmaker made this action or rifle?
[URL= ]DR[/URL]

Nice try, Shootaway. I've seen hundreds of them. It's a Baikal, .30-06.
Cal

This started off as an excellent topic, but it has quickly gone to the toilet. I feel bad for the original poster who was looking for real opinions.

AR is losing its importance because of this stupid banter, and Shootaway is behind most of it, with others antagonizing him. Please, stop this trend on all involved.

To the original poster, I would suggest the many other recommendations of the .375 FL as the perfect medium bore for a double rifle, followed by 9.3x74R.

After that, you're really looking at big bores. I love the .450/400, but I see it as the bottom of the big bores with slow velocities, and I probably wouldn't want a scope on it as its effective range is not much more than open sight range (Fast Fire III on a .450/400 is a great option}.

With a well regulated double rifle in .375 FL and a scope, then you have a range of 200 yards at least. Although I think their price is out of sight, the Heym in .375 FL would be a great option (very accurate and well balanced).

A Bradshaw in .375 Fl would be idea if you can wait that long to get one, and they are accurate as well.

Food for thought.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
This started off as an excellent topic, but it has quickly gone to the toilet. I feel bad for the original poster who was looking for real opinions.

AR is losing its importance because of this stupid banter, and Shootaway is behind most of it, with others antagonizing him. Please, stop this trend on all involved.

To the original poster, I would suggest the many other recommendations of the .375 FL as the perfect medium bore for a double rifle, followed by 9.3x74R.

After that, you're really looking at big bores. I love the .450/400, but I see it as the bottom of the big bores with slow velocities, and I probably wouldn't want a scope on it as its effective range is not much more than open sight range (Fast Fire III on a .450/400 is a great option}.

With a well regulated double rifle in .375 FL and a scope, then you have a range of 200 yards at least. Although I think their price is out of sight, the Heym in .375 FL would be a great option (very accurate and well balanced).

A Bradshaw in .375 Fl would be idea if you can wait that long to get one, and they are accurate as well.

Food for thought.

Mike

Mike you are correct and I am a guilty party and I offer my apology to all involved.

I agree with your take on the .375 Flanged. So, tell me what you think of this idea: rather than use a scope as a double, I take my scoped .450-400 and sight in the scope for one barrel only--left is my choice for the first shot--and I have a tack driver to 3-400 yards and beyond. It is an accurate single shot but with the scope off it is a standard double with 2.5 to 3" groups at 50 yards. One does not need the double advantage at long range anyway.
Cal

Gentlemen....I see a lot of viable arguments for choosing the .375 Flanged, I will look into it..

Best

Andre

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

I think we are talking about a hunters rifle here , not a PH rifle.
Shootaway , to say that the hunter is going to have to stop a charge is a little vain. In all honesty , few hunters today can do that , even with the biggest of calibers. Which is why the ( hopefully ) experienced PH is there. Then again I have seen Elephant charges stopped by a 9.3 x 62 in the hands of an experienced hand- the elephant didn't know what the energy table said. That said your personal shooting abilities might be far superior to the average hunter's.
The 450/400 with proper bullets will do just fine for the hunter in question.

This is just not so. I have stopped two elephant charges myself, and there are more than a few other members who have stopped buff and ele charges as well!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
This started off as an excellent topic, but it has quickly gone to the toilet. I feel bad for the original poster who was looking for real opinions.

AR is losing its importance because of this stupid banter, and Shootaway is behind most of it, with others antagonizing him. Please, stop this trend on all involved.

To the original poster, I would suggest the many other recommendations of the .375 FL as the perfect medium bore for a double rifle, followed by 9.3x74R.

After that, you're really looking at big bores. I love the .450/400, but I see it as the bottom of the big bores with slow velocities, and I probably wouldn't want a scope on it as its effective range is not much more than open sight range (Fast Fire III on a .450/400 is a great option}.

With a well regulated double rifle in .375 FL and a scope, then you have a range of 200 yards at least. Although I think their price is out of sight, the Heym in .375 FL would be a great option (very accurate and well balanced).

A Bradshaw in .375 Fl would be idea if you can wait that long to get one, and they are accurate as well.

Food for thought.

Mike

Mike you are correct and I am a guilty party and I offer my apology to all involved.

I agree with your take on the .375 Flanged. So, tell me what you think of this idea: rather than use a scope as a double, I take my scoped .450-400 and sight in the scope for one barrel only--left is my choice for the first shot--and I have a tack driver to 3-400 yards and beyond. It is an accurate single shot but with the scope off it is a standard double with 2.5 to 3" groups at 50 yards. One does not need the double advantage at long range anyway.
Cal

Cal,

I have often considered this a reasonable way to scope a double rifle, and I in fact had a Merkel .375 double that I did just that with. The right barrel was money. Some here will vilify us for suggesting such a technique, but I think it is perfectly reasonable for a double with quick detach mounts. Remove the scope/mounts, and you're back to a properly regulated two barrel system.

I think the .375 Fl is perfect for such a set up. I wouldn't want a scope on anything larger, although I would consider a Fast Fire III on any caliber if one's eyesight is deteriorating as my is.

I have 3 sighting systems on my Bradshaw 9.3x74: Iron sights, ghost ring, and Fast Fire III. I'm going to have Bailey adjust the Ghost Ring for better accuracy, but the irons and Fast Fire are deadly.

Mike

Thoughts on scoping the 450/400 (and to try to help get the thread back to where it needs to be) -

It looks like what is being recommended here for the medium caliber will involve a scope. So which scope mounting system does everyone favor? You have two main choices. A rib plus the Talley mounts (where you slide it on and off, then turn the clamps), or a European style Claw system. I think it's more expensive to order the Claw in a new gun.

I have on my Searcy 400 the rib plus Talley mounts. It takes a low power Leupold (the Claw I think esthetically is FAR more pleasing - it's what I'd order if doing it again - I'd order intercepting sears too).

Anyway, there are reasons for scoping a medium double gun, like the 400, aside from long range shots. For shorter range, where regulation's not a problem in any event, you're still a lot better off where precision is needed with the scope. That much I guess is obvious. But, here are some of the circumstances.

Very borderline early morning or late afternoon lighting conditions. Old eyes. Foggy conditions. Light rain. Snow. Shooting through a narrow (like just inches) window of opportunity, otherwise the shot is obscured. Or a very small spot needing to be hit. Shots where you can only see the head/neck. Or targets on the move. Or targets a little too far to pinpoint quickly with open sights.

If you're using your 400 for NA hunting, especially deer, all of these conditions will be there, and I'd want the Searcy scoped for the same reasons I'd be a lot better off with a scoped Model 70 vs. a non-scoped Model 94 or Model 71, even for fairly close shots. After all, most of us have had those 50 yarders that couldn't have been made without a scope. A practical example of that's the big 8 pt I'm looking at now hanging on the wall.

As far as which medium caliber, I think you could flip a coin between the 400 and the 375FL. There are the other traditional medium African calibers from the past that would be great fun to own, but there you run into practical issues, such as commercial availability of ammo and significant problems eventually trying to sell the gun.

Pondoro,

I've talked a little with Kebco ( Ken Butch ) regarding the 375 R VC and since I will visit the VC factory next week I will discuss further with Jerome at VC.

Maybe the 375 R VC is something between 375 Flanged and the 450/400 worth considering ?

I will get back to you.


Morten

Mike:
I've a scoped .450-400 Harrison and Hussey ble set up in such a manner and it has taken more game than I can count in Africa, Alaska and Australia.

I'm getting in a .350 Rigby no2 with original bases and rings and I will set up a scope the same way.

The first week of December I may get a .500 bpe H&H Royal, again with the original axone and rings, and I will set it up this way and see how it shoots.

I agree, nothing bigger needs a scope but with my old eyes the glass sure helps.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

I sometimes entertain the thought of writing a simple shooting book some day.I don`t think it will happen but you never know!

Shootaway:
I look forward to your book.
Please use a spell check.
Please have it proofed for grammar.
Don't include any English garbage in it.
Fill the pages with your stories and experiences only--nothing from current PHs with 40 years of experience who shoot vintage doubles.
I think I speak for all here when I state I will empty my book shelves and replace them all with only your work.
Cal

Cal,here is a little test for you.Which gunmaker made this action or rifle?
[URL= ]DR[/URL]

Nice try, Shootaway. I've seen hundreds of them. It's a Baikal, .30-06.
Cal

Maybe Merkel just bought Baikal

I have previously mentioned 375r VC. 300gr@2800 fps. Moderate pressure and with a rim. Sounds ideal if .375flanged is considered too weak like i had the impression you thought initially. Would be my choise if I had funds for another double after my 450NE.

The 375F is not to week and in my opinion brings the 375 to a more comfortable and practical velocity, not to dissimilar to the 9.3x62 which works ver well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Pondoro , I think the 450/400 3 inch. It Makes sense. The 450/400 is an absolute pleasure to shoot.

Absolutely, as is the 375H&H Flanged

Oz, I know you have a lot of hunting experience with double rifles and I value your opinion..

Please tell me about your experience with the .375 Flanged...what animals did you use it on..?

Wich ammo/bullets..?

Pondoro,
Not only have I owned and used this Calbre but also the likes of the 450/400 3" and 404J which I really like also with their moderate velocity. Used and seen them used from our feral game on up to Elephant mostly with Woodleigh hand loads .