My wilkinson has one. Some say get it altered? pro cons from a collector point of view? Having competed in handgun shooting 1911 platforms for decades safeties don't scare me much but I don't like auto ones. Thoughts?

Also reading African dangerous Game Cartridges Do I need to worry about any modern factory ammo or bullets wiping my rifling? Or size issues. I assume since it has been used with factory ammo and reloads for a hundred years its probably OK but the authors makes a big to doo about bore size and bullet construction? I am not going to worry much I guess

Asking those who know more.......

I like auto safties on my SxS shotguns, but on a DG double rifle I would vote against it. You may have to reload and fire quickly and, unless you are very practiced in releasing the safety as you mount the gun, it might be a hindrance.

They are easy enough as long as you can get the buttstock dismounted to change to non-automatic. The link is a simple metal rod that pushes back from the top lever that can be removed. The kept safe if you ever want to put it back at a later date.

But...here's the nub....you might damage the buttstock if it has seized on to the gun. But in truth a full strip and clean maybe isn't a bad idea in any case. And the buttstock would have to come off for that in any case.

Interestingly when folk in Europe shot live pigeon competitions for large sums of money their S/B/S guns were often made with no safety at all or a non-automatic safety as it was one less thing to forget to do.

On a DG DR .... Absolutely NAY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
On a DG DR .... Absolutely NAY!!!

On a quail gun...absolutely NAY!!!!

I disconnect the auto safety on my double rifles and shotguns. Keeps everything the same.

Dave

Interesting they put one on in the old days

Almost 30 years ago my first double rifle had an auto safety. So did most of the double rifles and shotguns that followed. It is a reflex now to slide the safety off as the rifle or gun comes to my shoulder--both at the range and in the field. I have had the few with the non auto safety changed to auto.

On the other hand, when shooting a non auto now, I forget to put the safety on.

I don't think it matters, there is no right or wrong, only keep all the same to what you are used to handling.
Cal

In a shooting discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, clay target shooting, you don't ever see auto safeties.
In a discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, dangerous game hunting, why would you ever want an auto safety.

I like Cal's outlook on this. Though I only own a couple of guns with auto safeties now, I always put the safety on, even when shooting clays, and slip it on raising the gun to shoot.

I might admit I have not done or thought about this when reloading quickly to shoot ducks but repetition seems the best way to develop good form.

If I had my shooting life over I'd prefer to have all my double guns and rifles with auto safeties and double triggers, whether S/S or O/U. The double triggers are not only more reliable but give a much quicker choke selection than single triggers and selectors, and you can't forget to switch them back.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eagle27:
In a shooting discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, clay target shooting, you don't ever see auto safeties.
In a discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, dangerous game hunting, why would you ever want an auto safety.[/QUOTE

Yup. No bolt action or pump shotgun has an auto safety. And I think there is an important link to consciously putting the gun back on safe after the action.

I would make it match all your other doubles so that your muscle memory works every time. Vs which gun did I bring and which safety option is on it

quote:

It is a reflex now to slide the safety off as the rifle or gun comes to my shoulder--both at the range and in the field.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I don't think it matters, there is no right or wrong, only keep all the same to what you are used to handling.
Cal

If a person has more than one double rifle/shotgun they should all be the same as far as muscle memory is a factor. This includes single or double triggers or selective ejectors as well.

However I for one do not follow my own advice it seems. I have two double rifles and three shotguns that have auto safeties, both are small chamberings or bird guns. I have two big bores D/Rs with non-auto safeties. All but one have double triggers, and the rest are exposed hemmer double rifles, and cape guns which have a half cock for safeties.

I guess that tells you how well prepared I am on the safety issue!

………………………………………………...

I do NOT like automatic anything!

Especially safety on rifles or shotguns!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
In a shooting discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, clay target shooting, you don't ever see auto safeties.
In a discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, dangerous game hunting, why would you ever want an auto safety.

Because in clay shooting you do not carry a loaded firearm to the line, but load after you arrive and are ready to shoot. Guns are carried broken open between stations.

In hunting the gun or rifle is carried loaded and often in the presence of other people, which requires all the safety behaviors and mechanisms possible.

Which is more important... the life of a companion or a marginally faster shot at a game animal?

quote:

Which is more important... the life of a companion or a marginally faster shot at a game animal?

Please try not to take this personally-

I would prefer not to hunt with someone reliant on an automatic safety. (Or confidently believing in their facility)

Using ALL possible safety mechanism is never possible-
lest we have armored barriers between each hunter.

We are all ultimately responsible for the direction of the muzzle and the flight of the projectile-
automatic safeties do nothing for either of those.

quote:

Because in clay shooting you do not carry a loaded firearm to the line, but load after you arrive and are ready to shoot. Guns are carried broken open between stations.

There were no safeties on the old hammeruns. They were carried, in the line, cocked and ready. A safety only blocks the triggers. Muzzle awareness is safety.

Relying on the engagement of sear and bent to protect your shooting companions from a barrel of an ounce and an eighth of birdshot in their back isn't wise.

As DUGGA BOYE says it's better to chose different companions if they think it is wise.

Absolutely not. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
In a shooting discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, clay target shooting, you don't ever see auto safeties.
In a discipline where everything must work perfectly every shot, dangerous game hunting, why would you ever want an auto safety.

Because in clay shooting you do not carry a loaded firearm to the line, but load after you arrive and are ready to shoot. Guns are carried broken open between stations.

In hunting the gun or rifle is carried loaded and often in the presence of other people, which requires all the safety behaviors and mechanisms possible.

Which is more important... the life of a companion or a marginally faster shot at a game animal?

Having done a few years of clay target competition shooting I know the drill, my reference to auto safeties in this regard was that you do not want the safety automatically engaging every time you break the gun to move stations. An auto safety when on the stations would be just another complication that can break concentration.
I do recall a shoot one day where a group of shooters moved on to a shoot off and racked their guns in between the shoots. When back on their stations a women shooter called for her bird and could not shoot as the safety was on. She turned to the observing crowd and let loose with 'who has been f..king with my gun and put the safety on".

Even when racking guns clay shooters do not usually apply the safety. My experience on the shooting range is similar, shooters do not use the safety. the gun is always empty until ready to fire.

I think there might be some confusion if anyone thinks people have to rely on an automatic safety. The non-use of safeties at gun clubs is fine if you never rough-shoot for game. If you do, the natural way to carry your gun will be with the safety on, though that angry woman might find herself in a spot of bovver.

Years ago I used to carry my gun open, with the non-automatic safety off, and just slammed it shut when something appeared to shoot. Trouble was this is noisy and can result in undue abuse to your action when a sudden shot is needed. On occasion a fox would appear and need to be sneaked up on (the farmer wanted us to shoot any foxes seen). Though I could slam the gun shut at the last moment, it is easier if you only need to slip the safety. Another problem with an open action is that dust gets in and any fall is more likely to burr the corners.

So I got over that and have since practised releasing safeties just as I need them, even if the dudes at the gun club disapprove.

On a dangerous game double rifle, absolutely not!!! Bloody dangerous to have it in my opinion.
Even a bolted safety is taboo for me.

Ah! Brothers! There is of course an alternative view of the automatic safety that none of you have considered.

It is that being automatic it re-sets every time so you know and develop the habit every time of raising the gun to fire to push it "off".

Whereas with a non-automatic safety there will be a time when you think you've left the gun off safe whereas in fact you've left in on safe.

So the virtue of the automatic safety is that it trains you (and what we train to do is what we default to when under stress) to ALWAYS push the safety forward.

Definitely a training and repitition issue that is not that big of a deal to someone who trains. As a competing shooter this absolutely does not dissuade me as you just click it off as you mount gun and if properly trained will add no time to a shot. Anyone who shoots a 1911 will understand that safeties are no big deal. I heard comments from people who disengaged the auto safety’s on DG rifles so I was interested on opinion. Good point if it is engaged 100 perfect you must disengage 100 percent. If you get confused lax or complacent like the lady shooter you will have issues. Interesting points all

And as to having all guns the same I disagree as well. If you instinctively push safety off mounting guns it will work just as well on a non auto. And if you insure it’s on safe every time it will be the same for auto and non auto safety. The only issue would be if a different operation safety ie pull instead of push etc. but firearm safety ultimately rests with the operator not a mechanical device. This translates to the intercepting sear debate as well

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Definitely a training and repitition issue that is not that big of a deal to someone who trains. As a competing shooter this absolutely does not dissuade me as you just click it off as you mount gun and if properly trained will add no time to a shot. Anyone who shoots a 1911 will understand that safeties are no big deal. I heard comments from people who disengaged the auto safety’s on DG rifles so I was interested on opinion. Good point if it is engaged 100 perfect you must disengage 100 percent. If you get confused lax or complacent like the lady shooter you will have issues. Interesting points all

Interesting comment. I've never known a 1911 to put the safety back on automatically every time you switch magazines (ie reload).

I'll say that I've never been caught out, missing a shot, through the safety being in the "on" position with an automatic safety side-by-side.

BUT I have been caught out with my non-automatic safety being "on" on my Manufrance Robust side-by-side. When I had thought that the last time I'd set it I had set it to the "off" position.

It is well worth noting that on many of the old side by sides (and over under - see at 3.37 in the video of Boss Gunamkers) hammerless guns used by the Monte Carlo shooters that they were made with no safety catch at all. None. So there was never that confusion.

Video here:

https://youtu.be/dD-6GTi1CA4

I was taught as a tyke that it is the responsibility of anyone holding a firearm to know the status of the safety at all times, and that the most important safeties are where the barrel is pointing and where the trigger finger is.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:

quote:

It is a reflex now to slide the safety off as the rifle or gun comes to my shoulder--both at the range and in the field.

+1

+2

Pretty much missed my point completely I guess?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Definitely a training and repitition issue that is not that big of a deal to someone who trains. As a competing shooter this absolutely does not dissuade me as you just click it off as you mount gun and if properly trained will add no time to a shot. Anyone who shoots a 1911 will understand that safeties are no big deal. I heard comments from people who disengaged the auto safety’s on DG rifles so I was interested on opinion. Good point if it is engaged 100 perfect you must disengage 100 percent. If you get confused lax or complacent like the lady shooter you will have issues. Interesting points all

Interesting comment. I've never known a 1911 to put the safety back on automatically every time you switch magazines (ie reload).

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Pretty much missed my point completely I guess?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Definitely a training and repitition issue that is not that big of a deal to someone who trains. As a competing shooter this absolutely does not dissuade me as you just click it off as you mount gun and if properly trained will add no time to a shot. Anyone who shoots a 1911 will understand that safeties are no big deal. I heard comments from people who disengaged the auto safety’s on DG rifles so I was interested on opinion. Good point if it is engaged 100 perfect you must disengage 100 percent. If you get confused lax or complacent like the lady shooter you will have issues. Interesting points all

Interesting comment. I've never known a 1911 to put the safety back on automatically every time you switch magazines (ie reload).

Maybe, but then I think you miss mine as well.

On a Dangerous Game rifle, the last thing I want is to have the safety automatically applied when reloading under duress. And in the case of a 1911, the safety is not auto applied between magazine switches.

I get it that proper training to always switch the safety off as the rifle comes up is good training. I do it as well, even without an auto safety just to make sure and out of muscle memory, but that still doesn't mean I want the safety to auto apply when I break the action open to reload as we all know about Mr. Murphy and his shenanigans. Once I open the ball game on a dangerous game animal at close range and in thick stuff, the fewer things possible to keep me from putting bullets on target the better.

Now birds, deer like critters, and paper targets, meh.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I think there might be some confusion if anyone thinks people have to rely on an automatic safety. The non-use of safeties at gun clubs is fine if you never rough-shoot for game. If you do, the natural way to carry your gun will be with the safety on, though that angry woman might find herself in a spot of bovver.

Years ago I used to carry my gun open, with the non-automatic safety off, and just slammed it shut when something appeared to shoot. Trouble was this is noisy and can result in undue abuse to your action when a sudden shot is needed. On occasion a fox would appear and need to be sneaked up on (the farmer wanted us to shoot any foxes seen). Though I could slam the gun shut at the last moment, it is easier if you only need to slip the safety. Another problem with an open action is that dust gets in and any fall is more likely to burr the corners.

So I got over that and have since practised releasing safeties just as I need them, even if the dudes at the gun club disapprove.

Agree with everything said, I do use the safety on my O/U when hunting and also on my Auto shotgun, just want to have all my firearm safeties manual so I control when they are on and off.
Imagine an auto safety on a bolt action so every time you cycled the bolt the safety went on, that would be an absolute cluster f..ck for most shooters no matter haw experienced they may be or think they are

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Imagine an auto safety on a bolt action so every time you cycled the bolt the safety went on, that would be an absolute cluster f..ck for most shooters no matter haw experienced they may be or think they are

That statement right there!! That one!! Sums it up perfectly.

Gun on safe until you open the ball game. Once the ball game is started, there is no need to have to fuss with the safety until the shooting is over and done with ... regardless of muscle memory training that is best suited for getting the initial shot down range. And in the case of dangerous game like elephant, especially at 20 yards or so, in heavy cover, all the more so!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Imagine an auto safety on a bolt action so every time you cycled the bolt the safety went on, that would be an absolute cluster f..ck for most shooters no matter haw experienced they may be or think they are

That statement right there!! That one!! Sums it up perfectly.

Gun on safe until you open the ball game. Once the ball game is started, there is no need to have to fuss with the safety until the shooting is over and done with ... regardless of muscle memory training that is best suited for getting the initial shot down range. And in the case of dangerous game like elephant, especially at 20 yards or so, in heavy cover, all the more so!!!

A huge difference between a double and a bolt gun.

A properly operate bolt does not leave the shoulder between shots.

After the 2nd shot a double always leaves the shoulder to be reloaded.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Imagine an auto safety on a bolt action so every time you cycled the bolt the safety went on, that would be an absolute cluster f..ck for most shooters no matter haw experienced they may be or think they are

That statement right there!! That one!! Sums it up perfectly.

Gun on safe until you open the ball game. Once the ball game is started, there is no need to have to fuss with the safety until the shooting is over and done with ... regardless of muscle memory training that is best suited for getting the initial shot down range. And in the case of dangerous game like elephant, especially at 20 yards or so, in heavy cover, all the more so!!!

A huge difference between a double and a bolt gun.

A properly operate bolt does not leave the shoulder between shots.

After the 2nd shot a double always leaves the shoulder to be reloaded.

Aside from the hundreds of thousands of left handers using RH bolt guns in the world who take the gun off the shoulder to reload, why are doubles the only actions singled out for auto safeties? Are
double users too stupid and unsafe they have to be treated like babies?

Of course they are not but it just seems dumb to complicate a firearms use with an auto safety when all other action types are manual. Just like that silly centre trigger blade to stop stupid gun owners from unintentionally pulling the trigger. Learn gun safety and keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Same for safeties, put them on and off, don't rely on something else mechanical doing it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Imagine an auto safety on a bolt action so every time you cycled the bolt the safety went on, that would be an absolute cluster f..ck for most shooters no matter haw experienced they may be or think they are

That statement right there!! That one!! Sums it up perfectly.

Gun on safe until you open the ball game. Once the ball game is started, there is no need to have to fuss with the safety until the shooting is over and done with ... regardless of muscle memory training that is best suited for getting the initial shot down range. And in the case of dangerous game like elephant, especially at 20 yards or so, in heavy cover, all the more so!!!

A huge difference between a double and a bolt gun.

A properly operate bolt does not leave the shoulder between shots.

Except that there are many bolt shooters who do advocate removing the rifle from the shoulder to cycle the bolt fully when dealing with magnum length actions when engaged with dangerous game animals. Keeps one from short stroking the action under duress ... and smacking oneself in the nose with the back of the bolt.

After the 2nd shot a double always leaves the shoulder to be reloaded.

A better analogy concerning the bolt rifle would be if the bolt rifle's safety automatically applied each time you reloaded it. It doesn't. Once you open the ball game, you can shoot and reload all you want without having to deal with the safety, until the ball game is over.

Again, this is a dangerous game animal rifle we are speaking of, not antlered critters. Your beloved Glock doesn't have a safety at all. Why? Because it eliminates one possible Mr. Murphy shenanigan in the event you need to use it to stop the most dangerous animal of all ... an armed assailant. And back to the 1911 analogy, yes, switching off the safety when first engaging the assailant is no big deal, but the pistol does not auto reset the safety when swapping out magazines. Why? Because it eliminates one possible Mr. Murphy shenanigan ... again!

Let's remember the scenario we are dealing with here. It's not a flushed covey of quail or a day at the skeet range. It's elephant in the thick brush. Brush so thick you may only be able to see bit's and pieces of the animal, as huge as they are. And inside of 25 yards. Specifically in the case of tuskless cows, multiple elephant in the thick brush at less than 25 yards, and unlike buffalo, those old gals have a tendency to want to charge if they discover your presence. No, it doesn't often happen that multiple animals have to be engaged in this scenario but it does happen. Just ask Jines. In that scenario, I don't want to have to mess with the safety once I flick it off until time to put it back on after the shooting stops. Proper training will teach you to put the safety back on when the game is over just like proper training will teach you to flick it off when mounting the rifle.

Again the Forum is missing the obvious. Why an automatic safety on a side by side. As P DOG SHOOTER says an break open gun leaves the shoulder to reload.

AND in many cases for a British or European game shooter would have been passed to a loader in exchange for an identica, now loaded, gun.

So to make the loading process quicker the safety is made to re-set to "on safe" once the gun is opened. And also for safety when that now reloaded gun is passed back to the game shooter.

As the golden rule of using a pair of guns (I sold mine two weeks and now only have single guns) is that it is always passed, fired or part fired or loaded with the safety catch on.

And to be honest, from what I've been told by folk that have shot some these things, dangerous game, specifically cape buffalo, European bear and tiger if you can't do it with the two shots in your double gun you won't usually have the luxury of time to break it and reload regardless of how the safety functions. The quarry will be on you.

This is quite an useful video:

https://youtu.be/88Ndf6Oqr6g

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:


And to be honest, from what I've been told by folk that have shot some these things, dangerous game, specifically cape buffalo, European bear and tiger if you can't do it with the two shots in your double gun you won't usually have the luxury of time to break it and reload regardless of how the safety functions. The quarry will be on you.

I agree that’s why I am inquiring about my 100 year old double with auto safety that probably killed more elephants and tigers than we will ever know. Some say remove it some say not. Seems to have worked just fine as is for a long long time. The question is do I want to modify the gun? As someone who has shot a quarter million plus rounds out of a 1911 coming out of a holster operating safety on and off insinctively I am not that worried. But I would prefer a non auto. Someone who doesn’t shot or train it could be a big problem

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Pretty much missed my point completely I guess?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Definitely a training and repitition issue that is not that big of a deal to someone who trains. As a competing shooter this absolutely does not dissuade me as you just click it off as you mount gun and if properly trained will add no time to a shot. Anyone who shoots a 1911 will understand that safeties are no big deal. I heard comments from people who disengaged the auto safety’s on DG rifles so I was interested on opinion. Good point if it is engaged 100 perfect you must disengage 100 percent. If you get confused lax or complacent like the lady shooter you will have issues. Interesting points all

Interesting comment. I've never known a 1911 to put the safety back on automatically every time you switch magazines (ie reload).

Maybe, but then I think you miss mine as well.

On a Dangerous Game rifle, the last thing I want is to have the safety automatically applied when reloading under duress. And in the case of a 1911, the safety is not auto applied between magazine switches.

I get it that proper training to always switch the safety off as the rifle comes up is good training. I do it as well, even without an auto safety just to make sure and out of muscle memory, but that still doesn't mean I want the safety to auto apply when I break the action open to reload as we all know about Mr. Murphy and his shenanigans. Once I open the ball game on a dangerous game animal at close range and in thick stuff, the fewer things possible to keep me from putting bullets on target the better.

Now birds, deer like critters, and paper targets, meh.

This is a plausible explanation especially from the muzzleloader era. Read many stories with a hunter and a brace of rifles. Mechanically easy addition on a break open action.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Again the Forum is missing the obvious. Why an automatic safety on a side by side. As P DOG SHOOTER says an break open gun leaves the shoulder to reload.

AND in many cases for a British or European game shooter would have been passed to a loader in exchange for an identica, now loaded, gun.

So to make the loading process quicker the safety is made to re-set to "on safe" once the gun is opened. And also for safety when that now reloaded gun is passed back to the game shooter.

As the golden rule of using a pair of guns (I sold mine two weeks and now only have single guns) is that it is always passed, fired or part fired or loaded with the safety catch on.

And to be honest, from what I've been told by folk that have shot some these things, dangerous game, specifically cape buffalo, European bear and tiger if you can't do it with the two shots in your double gun you won't usually have the luxury of time to break it and reload regardless of how the safety functions. The quarry will be on you.

This is quite an useful video:

https://youtu.be/88Ndf6Oqr6g