I am intrested in getting a Double rifle the questions is by new or by old? I see some old british doubles that I like very much but there some new great doubles being made, so wich way to go.
Your thoughts and comments are apprecitated.

Here's my take - the fine old British SXS's are always going up in price, & if you're a collector more than a shooter/hunter, then grab one soon because they're probably cheaper now than they will ever be again - they will continue to appreciate. That being said, for the price of one good British double, you can buy a new Heym PH .470 AND a new Chapuis 9.3X74R. But, nothing feels better in the hand than a classic British SXS ...... it's a tough decision.

Buy o;d. $$$$$$$$$$$$

Buy new, $$$$



Keith

I choose new on my three doubles. They will always be used for hunting and like the idea they can be easily repaired if need be.

Wait a bit and look at the new Rigby of London doubles. You might get the best of both worlds.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
Here's my take - the fine old British SXS's are always going up in price, & if you're a collector more than a shooter/hunter, then grab one soon because they're probably cheaper now than they will ever be again - they will continue to appreciate.

Not bad advice-- if you collect a "clean" british gun will be hard to beat. If you like to hunt and shoot with it-- (one of my friends puts about 500-700 rounds a year thru is two doubles)then I'd buy new. Lots of nice new guns out there--go to DSC and SCI and look!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
Here's my take - the fine old British SXS's are always going up in price, & if you're a collector more than a shooter/hunter, then grab one soon because they're probably cheaper now than they will ever be again - they will continue to appreciate. That being said, for the price of one good British double, you can buy a new Heym PH .470 AND a new Chapuis 9.3X74R. But, nothing feels better in the hand than a classic British SXS ...... it's a tough decision.

Ditto's

Personally I like the new DR's because I hunt with them, I don't collect them. Don't get me wrong, an old British DR in good working order CANNOT BE BEAT but you have to have a good working knowledge of what to look for when you find one in good working order. New ones are easy to fix if any issues arrise and as far as an investment (not the reason to own a DR IMO) have you seen the dollars value fall against the euro in the past few years, my DR has appreciated in value 3,000 dollars in three years, that's not bad. Wait for the hyperinflation that's coming down the pike in the next few years in the US, our brainless government loves to print money as fast as it can.

Thanks for your input guys,I am more of a collector than a shooter that being said I still shoot alot.
I am tore between a new Merkel 140 A Cal 500 NE 3", a classic old Jeffery 475 No2.

Like anything else, it's just a matter of what you want and how much you have to spend. With double rifles, you'll never be sorry for buying the best quality you can afford.

In today's market, a pre-war British boxlock of excellent original quality, properly vetted and remaining in excellent condition, offers the best quality, weight distribution and handling dynamics you can get for the price - if you can afford them. Similar quality in a new built rifle will cost twice as much. Sure, you can buy a new rifle for less money, but such "price" rifles represent a collection of compromises to achieve a price point, and build quality just isn't comparable.

I'm not a collector. I bought my doubles to shoot and hunt with and wanted the best quality, reliability, performance, and handling for that purpose that I could afford, so mine are pre-war British. In 20 years use of the pair that I kept, I've never had a repair. I can't afford a new built rifle of equal quality, and would have no use for lesser rifles just because they're new.

Whether you're a collector or not has nothing to do with it anyway. Most people that buy good quality pre-war working DRs buy them to shoot and hunt with, not collect.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

octave,there is noone on this website, or just about anyplace else, that knows more about double rifles that Mark (400 Nitro Express). Because of that he is confident in buying the best of the crop of double rifles made in the UK between the wars. He is the guy I go to when i need to know something about any Britt doubel rifle, and his advice is golden.

There is on facet that he doesn't take into consideration however! That is the guy being new to double rifles normally doesn't put in the research that he dod before buying their first double rifle. Because there is so much nostalgia involved in a person wanting to own a double rifle, they tend to think in single barrel terms instead of true double rifle terms when deciding on what to buy. First they look at a cambering that is too large most times, and right behind that they look at the MSRP, and look for the best BARGAINE they can find. This is almost always a NEW. or a used NEW double rifle. Then they buy, and find that they cannot load for a double rifle the same way they did for thier 311 Savage bolt rifle, and don't know where to start to get the rifle to shoot to the regulation built into the rifle. This Accurate Reloading website, and Nitro Express website can help in that respect, but most soon give up discovering that they really were not double rifle people. Bla Bla Bla,........ Because of this I have always thought it was better for the first time double rifle buyer to buy NEW, because about 50% of the people who buy thier first double rifle decide quite quickly that they are not suited to being a double rifle owner, and sell, or trade the double for a bolt rifle in a DGR chambering, and be done with it. I hve bought several double rifle at bargain prices simply because the owner couldn't make them shoot properly. If he bought a Britt rifle, that was a pimped up wall hanger, because he didn't know what to look for, he will loose a lot of the investment on the re-sale because most who buy that type of rifle can spot a wall hanger in a heart beat, and will not buy with out a substantual discount to make the rifle right. If he has bought a new double rifle and taken care of it, he will loose far less percentage wise of his investment if he decides to sell.

If this turns out to be a platform he is happy with, and he uses the rifle for a time, and in the process learns more about the double rifle's own rules, and can live with them, now is the time to look for a better between the wars Britt double, and the attendant price point. The loss, if any, on the NEW double he bought, will be small, and is only the cost of an education, and that sale price can be applied to the Britt rifle, that he wants to keep for ever, and pass down to his aires!

There are ways for the un-schooled to not get burned with a quality Britt double, however. #1 is to enlist the help of someone like Mark to help him not fall into the pits that abound in the ventage double rifle market. #2 is to deal with a good dealer, like Champlin's in Enid, OK. He moves more double rifles that anyone in the world today, and is as honest as the day is long. He will tell you anything you need to know about any double rifle he has on offer. Not only the good but the bad as well. IMO, with an investment of this magnitude, a trip to the DSC show in Jan, is worth consideration to look over Champlin's tables, or a trip to his place in Enid to walk through his gun vault.

...........GOOD LUCK

.............. ................

Buy the best rifle you can afford that meets your requirements, whether it is pre-war Brit, new Brit, old Euro, new Euro. Handle enough rifles and one will scream, "TAKE ME HOME!"

What man made, man can fix or re-make so I woudn't worry about wear and tear from hunting with any rifle. And they can be insured as well.

Too many old Brit rifles are clunkers, so, if you want to go this route, use someone who knows what he is looking for to weed out potential candidates, someone like JJ Perodeaux at Champlin's. And go through a thouroughly reputable dealer, like Champlin's. (Not a few newer rifles are clunkers too.)

I will disagree that most double rifles are purchased to be used for more than show and tell or paper punching, or maybe they are with the best intentions, but now a days, very few get used much if at all for the purpose they were made for, as they were intended.

JPK

I bought my first British double, a 470 William Evans 5 years ago. I had decided to buy a Searcy and had my order form and measurements filled out and the check written to be mailed to Butch. My buddy suggested I delay until the DSC which was coming up in a week.

At the show I spent time with George Caswell and met NE 450 No2. I walked out of the show determined I was going to buy a British double and a few weeks later I found the Evans. Since then I have bought 10-12 more British doubles, have kept some and sold some. This has been one of my most enjoyable experiences. I have learned a great deal, made some great friends and met some of the best quality people. With their help I have been able to avoid the pitfalls that can happen when considering a vintage double.


I go through the same process every time I contemplate a purchase. I agree on a price and the gun is sent directly to JJ for inspection. So far I am running about a 66% success rate where the gun passes JJ's inspection. The failed ones have been a variety of issues from OSR, bad bores, etc.

I haven't handled a new made gun yet under 50k that have the feel and handling of a vintage British gun.

octave

In the long run you would be more happy IMHO with the Jeffery 475.

I would have it sent to JJ Perodeau at Champlins.

He can tell you what work it might need, if any, or he will tell you not to buy it.

Loke many on this forum I would never buy ANY used double without having JJ look at it.

IMHO Jeffery Doubles, and those Doubles with other names on them built by the makers of Jeffery Doubles, are some of the best ever made.

octave:

This is what I meant by "properly vetted":

quote:

I go through the same process every time I contemplate a purchase. I agree on a price and the gun is sent directly to JJ for inspection. So far I am running about a 66% success rate where the gun passes JJ's inspection. The failed ones have been a variety of issues from OSR, bad bores, etc.

A lot of first time double rifle buyers are experienced rifle shooters, and assume that they know enough to keep themselves out of trouble with a totally different type. That's a bad mistake.

Take your time, and research the rifles you're potentially interested in. Handle as many of them as you can. There are a lot of differences. When you find one that speaks to you and looks good, DON'T WING IT. Get it carefully evaluated by fully qualified gunmaker expert in double rifles, not an ordinary gunsmith, BEFORE the deal is final.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

I will disagree that most double rifles are purchased to be used for more than show and tell or paper punching, or maybe they are with the best intentions, but now a days, very few get used much if at all for the purpose they were made for, as they were intended.

JPK

You are most likely correct in your opinions but there are those of us who use them for hunting on a regular basis and not just in Africa. Since buying my first Chapuis a few years ago I have never taken another bolt action hunting with me, although they certaintly have there place. Even though I cringe every time I scratched the stock on the Chapuis it is my go to moose rifle. At least until my Searcy is finished.

Interesting points being made here and one I would make is the guys who have to scrimp, save, and clear out a safe selling a few rifles to get the funds to pay for the doubles are the ones most likely to get them bloodied on a regular basis. This bring us back to the questions at hand. Most hunters are not collectors but many collectors are also hunters. If that makes any sense

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Since buying my first Chapuis a few years ago I have never taken another bolt action hunting with me.

DR user quote of the year, you gotta love it!

If you buy a rifle from www.champlinarms.com JJ is right there!

Also know that there are more DR's at that place than those on

the site. So if you can GO THERE you'll really be well served by

the experience. If you can afford an old UK built DR that is mech-

anically sound I'd encourage you in that direction. Would you be

inclined to say what your ceiling is for cost? The guys here look

at DR's all over the web, in stores, hear about rifles from people

they know and so on. Some one might hear of a great rifle being

offered at 25K, but if you are topped out at 20K he'd know NOT

to torment you with the info he's come across.

Thanks gentlemen for your insight you have given me alot to think about.30k would be about as high as I could go at this time,thanks again for all your insight.

With 30K you should be able to get a great Old British Double rifle in any calibre from 450/400 up to even a 500.

It just might take a while to find the one you like. and might require a little travel and a little money spent...
Well worth it to get the right gun.

Though I would not recommend a 500 as your first double.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
With 30K you should be able to get a great Old British Double rifle in any calibre from 450/400 up to even a 500.

It just might take a while to find the one you like. and might require a little travel and a little money spent...
Well worth it to get the right gun.

Though I would not recommend a 500 as your first double.

Maybe he's already been shooting a 500 caliber bolt action rifle?

Yea, $30K should do it. I'm topped out at about half-that, which has me looking at the Merkel, Verney-Carron, Searcy, etc.

But what about something like this, a William Douglass in .470NE, which is identical to one General Norman Schwarzkopf gave to a PH I hunted with (sans the pad).

Douglas at Champlins

Is it possible to get a "good" working English double for $15K or less...or is one better to go new German/French/Searcy?

Thanks.

If I had to limit my budget to $15K or less, I'd go for a new double - Chapuis, Searcy, PH Heym, or Merkel - JMHO. BUT, for $30K, I follow Mark's rules of selection, & find a fine old British SXS; there are several available from Caswell, & a few others on the web. For the most fun, I'd take my $30K & head for Dallas next month.

I had George appraise my William Douglas 470NE but "vetted" the rifle first by talking to him and JJ as well as several other double rifle dealers prior to purchase. It is an English made rifle however, it is NOT a Jeffery or Boswell or Evans but a very solid modern era made rifle that was made for and imported to Cape Outfitters in Cape Girardeau Mo. The quality and reliability seems to be very similar to Chapius, Heym. It appraised at $16500 4 years ago for what thats worth. The English stamp on the barrel may give it more value to some, but I doubt it will catch up to the vintage English double in value. My wood is nicer than the one Champlin has on his web site but at $14,500 seems like a good price if you are in the market. IMHO

Another thought, the ONLY current made Double Rifle George or JJ will back is Chapuis. They have nothing bad to say about Heym, William Douglas, but the rest they will either not comment on or outright discourage you from buying in my experience.

I'd look hear.

For 20K
http://www.luxusgunstock.com/LuxusBawana1.jpg

For 12-15K
http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/s.../578_large_image.jpg
http://www.verney-carron.com/p...us2/iii_index-us.htm
I have not dealt with Ken before but have talked with him and he is first rate.
V/C guns seem very good for the dollar spent.

Our find a good german guild or ferlach gun

http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=3&GunID=1649

Sub 10K

http://merkel-usa.com/core.php...bmF2aWdhdGlvbklEPTk0

Luxus PH gun--very cool gun-- Adam's gun's will be a good bet for around 8K.
http://www.luxusgunstock.com/

Just my 2 cents

Ed

The closer I get to the Verney-Carron rifles, the more I like them. I like the "feel" of them...substantial, buttstock a bit wider and deeper for recoil, etc. And Ken is a great guy...very patient, even with an ADD customer like me!!!!

BYW, the William Douglas was a modern attempt to capitalize on the desire for English-branded doubles, but a a lower pricepoint. The Wm Douglas name has no historical roots; just pulled out of a hat as sounding like an old English brand. Nothing wrong with the rifles that I hear, but they should be compared more to modern doubles than considered one of the British "Classics".

Today for hunting big game it's better to use a bolt action rifle with a good scope ! But for the fun and a flavour of tradition why not a DR in our collection ! That is the reason why i prefere old one's. For hunting big game in Africa my first choice is a 460WM for all rounds and a 500 Jeffery for the elefants, both with scopes. But i have also 2 double rifles, a Webley & Scott 577NE / 1909 and a A.Francotte 600NE / 1926 . If you want the same quality in a new DR you have to buy a Holland & Holland or a Westley Richards, or a Ziegenhain in Germany for exemple.Cheap new big bore DR are oftens poor quality and bad shooters.

One of my friends has a Jeffery double chambered in 475#2 Jeffery (.488 Caliber).

I think the round and the rifle are fantastic.
He has taken several buffalo and elephant with the rifle. It's a killer!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
With double rifles, you'll never be sorry for buying the best quality you can afford.

In today's market, a pre-war British boxlock of excellent original quality, properly vetted and remaining in excellent condition, offers the best quality, weight distribution and handling dynamics you can get for the price - if you can afford them. Similar quality in a new built rifle will cost twice as much. Sure, you can buy a new rifle for less money, but such "price" rifles represent a collection of compromises to achieve a price point, and build quality just isn't comparable.


400 nitro,

I agree with you on alot of double stuff, but to say that a pre war boxlock gun are of better build quality than can be found for a like price point is not quite true.

I too have owned a few doubles--dont know the history like you, but have had a double or 2 for a few years now--had them from britan,scotland,germany,Austria, and the good ol USA, and have 2 on order from Italy (FAMARS).

A well "vetted" pre war"no-name" boxlock gun has a value now of close t0 18K- 20K. (great investment--I paid about 10K for a watson brothers in 2004 sold it in 08 for profit of about 7K) To say you cant get a new gun of like quality for 20K is bordering on laughable.

I had a good friend that sold his Hambrush 500NE about 5 years ago now for 10K to Cabelas, that gun was of excellent build quality and a very fine rifle (was purchaced by 500 grains). Verney Carron guns are of excellet build quality and they are well under 20K. I have seen a few Ferlach guns here lately in the 15K to 18K price range, they do have there own "flavor" but are fine guns. I was at the SCI show last year and was at the Fuchs booth. He said he would do a boxlock with min engraving, french gray action and barrel length of up to 26 in, for 14,500 euro (at the time it was 1.38 if you were willing to sign on the dotted line) thats right at 20K and it would be a very fine rifle. I had to mug with his SS sidelock 577


By coachsells, shot with COOLPIX S210 at 2009-01-31

All I'm saying is Pre war guns were built when Machines were expensive and labor was cheap. Now finding the skilled labor is the expensive part. I love old guns, but the steel is better, and tolerances are tighter. Also a modern gun can be replaced, so in my mind if you are a hunter/shooter first. I'll stick with my modern guns. I still love the ol gun character though!

Sorry for the slight hijack, the 475 is a excellent round, and if you find it in a clean classic gun go for it-- you cant beat the character of an ol gun, they smell and look like campfire smoke!

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:
Today for hunting big game it's better to use a bolt action rifle with a good scope !

Tisk tisk, and you said this in the DR forum to boot
Since purchasing my first double I have never carried a bolt back into the field for "Big" game. I keep on building bolt rifles but they never seem to leave the range. Should of saved the money towards another double

quote:

Orignally posted by 505ED:
400 nitro,

I agree with you on alot of double stuff, but to say that a pre war boxlock gun are of better build quality than can be found for a like price point is not quite true.

I too have owned a few doubles--dont know the history like you, but have had a double or 2 for a few years now--had them from britan,scotland,germany,Austria, and the good ol USA, and have 2 on order from Italy (FAMARS).

A well "vetted" pre war"no-name" boxlock gun has a value now of close t0 18K- 20K. (great investment--I paid about 10K for a watson brothers in 2004 sold it in 08 for profit of about 7K) To say you cant get a new gun of like quality for 20K is bordering on laughable.

I'm quite familiar with what's out there. You certainly have a much higher opinion of those you mentioned than I do.

You said "A well "vetted" pre war"no-name" boxlock gun". I said "a pre-war British boxlock of excellent original quality, properly vetted and remaining in excellent condition, offers the best quality, weight distribution and handling dynamics you can get for the price". You left out several important points that I did not.

V-C rifles are functional, but overpriced for the build quality they offer. I didn't find them even acceptably finished.

The Italian rifles are hit and miss. A few years ago, a friend, a former London gunmaker, brought in a top grade FAMARS double rifle for a client. It would, literally, not group as tight at 50 yards as a 12 bore with buckshot. The FAMARS that Luxus is bringing in at $19K is a far cry from their standard gun. They cut corners on it to get the price way down. Among other things, mono-bloc barrels instead of chopper lump, plus elimination of ejectors and intercepting sears.

As for the Ferlach guns, quality can sometimes be quite good, but yes, they've got their own "flavor" - including a different lay-out that results in handling that's usually below par.

If you feel that such are of similar quality, you're entitled to your view. I strongly disagree. It just isn't there.
----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

I see somewhat you say, but I've shot alot of british guns that did'nt group that damn good.

V/C guns are more like 11-12K, thats 8K of what a british gun would cost. So yep, there is a difference but that is what price point is all about.

FAMARS, builds all the "new" Jeffery rifles that are produced that I know, even some of hollands guns--. I can tell you if mine did not group any better than your friends/client, I'd send it back.

Whats wrong with mono-block barrels? Shure it is less expensive, but what is the structural fault?Beretta and others have been using them for years, without fault.



Lot of Brit guns in that price range dont have ejectors. Whats your point?

intercepting sears--I'll agree my guns will have them.

I'm not the stuff hear for the sake. I just get tired of guys trying to make some ol doubles into things there not.

Face it some of these guns are getting flat out old, and not meant to be shot like some guys do. Most new guns have better steel end of story, and alot of the old guns have alot of peckadillos (regulation,cordite burns, bad wood, cracks in barrels,loose rib,ect, ect.)

I just have a different opinion. Thats the nice thing, makes the world go round!

Cheers,

Ed

Ed, I WANT THAT 577 SIDELOCK!!!!

Biebs,

120K! Ouch!

No cut corners there!

While there are some good new made doubles out there, sadly none of them "feel" like a proper British Double.

I have handled and shot a nice Famars, the nw Heyms are close, and I have shots 500 Grains 500 Nitro Hambrusch on 3 seperate occasions.
Wheter at 7 yards or 25 yards both barrels have always touched for me. That double shoots great...

But none of then handle like a British Double.

I forgot to mention the second best part about good condition vintage Brit double. If you don't pay silly money for one, you can shoot it for a few years and get your money back or even make some.

You can't do that with a new gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I forgot to mention the second best part about good condition vintage Brit double. If you don't pay silly money for one, you can shoot it for a few years and get your money back or even make some.

You can't do that with a new gun.

I don't agree. Same applies for some of the new guns too. I have never lost money on a Double and all of mine are new guns. I will say that there is much more upside on a vintage double in the long run provided that it is properly taken care of.

In general, guns are not investments. They are tools. Guns do not outpace more rational investments such as gold, stocks, real estate in the long run. Sure, if you look at the past 3 years, all investments have been whacked (except gold). But in the long term (10 or more years), guns are not investments. This goes for double rifles as well as "collectables". They are not particularly liquid when you want to sell them.

Everyone who reads this has a story - I bought a Rigby-Evans-Chapuis double 470 for $x and sold it for $x plus. Fine. If you sold to a dealer, you got $x minus. If you had to sell in a week, you likely did not get what you hoped. If you pack it around to gun shows or to Enid, OK for George to buy, you spend a sizeable amount marketing it.

You will hear comments like - "I never have lost money on a gun". Great, fine. Neither have I but I have not made any money either, hence it is not an investment just because you do not lose money. If you did not make the inflation rate or the rate of decline of the dollar, you in fact lost money.

You will also hear - "Buy now because they will never be any cheaper". Not entirely true. Values rise and fall based on demand. Take "pre-64 model 70 Winchesters". Value went up when the factory closed a few years ago. Value is down and dropping with the new and better M70's coming out. Overall appreciation of M70 pre-64's has not kept pace with inflation or the stock market. For an investment, buy Exxon or IBM stock and compare the 1964 price to today's. Do the same for your pre-64 M70. You will be suprised.

All of this to say - if you find the gun you like and can afford it - buy it. The investment aspect should not enter the equation because when you sell it (or your kids sell it), how you sell it, the condition and a host of other variables will determine the price.

Buy it, enjoy it and go hunting with it. You only take your character with you to heaven or hell.

I agree with dogcat (fellow okie). I just retired from ExxonMobil-sold some stock to buy a double from JJ...best of both worlds!!