Thanks! I just happen to have a box from my 458WM days

Been reading this thread with interest as I have had my "new to me" Army Navy 450NE made in 1902 for a couple of months now but with travels have been unable to shoot it much. This weekend we have a winter Michigan DRSS shoot at Bals place and one of the objectives will be to work up loads and let all shoot my rifle. It was in recent times regulated by W Richards in Birmingham to Hornady ammo and shoots great. Me being a lefty it shoots a little 3" to the right so I need to make a sight adj. I am interested in working up some loads as Jorge has done. Question for 450NE fans, do any of you have load data for reduced weight "plinking" type loads. When I had my 500 Dirk Lawyer had some incredible loads for Woodleigh 425's and I would like to consider the same in the 450NE. Would appreciate any help. Not sure what the best light bullet is to consider in a 450NE either.

Thanks,

Larry

Gents I think I broke the code with handloads. The rifle seems to like 2090-2100 fps. I used 480gr Hornady DGXs and 94.5gr IMR 4831 and F215M primers. I also bought some Woodleighs and will try them next. The Woodleighs seat longer so who knows, but at least I can match the factory stuff. I'm happy. Also when shooting off sticks with other rifles, I normally rest the forearm on the sticks and hold the forearm just aft of where the sticks sit. Is this the same for the double? jorge

that is a great looking target jorge. I have been eyeing this thread for the last few weeks wating and hoping to read and see results as you have posted today.
you see I have a vested intrest in you succeding, in your efforts to come up with a good load. From what I have seen you did. congratulation.
Happy new year, and God's blessings to every body on DRSS
Malek

Thanks! Took a few rounds to dial in but I'm satisfied. I think half the problem is having to re-learn irons after so many years of scope shooting. I can almost guarnatee a lot of my bigger groups had to do with proper sight picture than actual accuracy. Same to you! jorge

How important are CIP limits (44kPSI and 39K cup) with the new guns and modern steel. My program shows 82.9gr(80% density) of Rl 15 w/ 480 Hor in 25" going 2133fps but 42.7K cup (over by 3700cup). An 85% density of H4350 (88.1gr) doing 2057fps @ 39.7K cup.

Albert, I'm sure they are so that is why I use a chrono for all my loads as that is one way to stay safe. Original velocities for the 450 3/14 and a 480gr are 2150 fps out of a 26" barrel. My rifle sports 24" barrels so I targeted 2100 and as you can see they regulated well. This rilfe is real finnicky with velocites as even a 15 fps increase will start to cross. cheers, jorge

BigBBear: If no one comes up with light loads you might want to look at the loads for the 45-120 Sharps Streight. Same caliber-same lenght-but 0.030" smaller at base than 450NE. H20 difference is 113gr for 45-120 and 134 for 450NE. Hodgdon shows loads for it with lead bullets. Out of a 450NE the vel. and pressure would be less for the same load. I think that the 45-120 works in the 27,000psi range and the 450NE at 44,000psi.

Gents, one of our members suggested I pull the bullet of a factory 480 DGX to see what the weight & type of powder used so I pulled TWO bullets just to be sure. It's most definitively H-4831 and the charges were 93.5 and 93.7gr. I weighed them twice, on both digital and balance beam. So for those of you that shoot the 450 I hope that helps! jorge

You guys I'm sure are tired of my postings, but I am just tickled pink my rifle and loads are working out so well. I used the same target with black/orange stickies,but I shot some factory loads. What I'm going to do next is shoot some new loads with the recipe I used after pulling apart a factory round. The exact load was 93.7gr H-4831, F215M primers and crimped with a custom Lee Factory Crimp die. This rifle likes 2080-2100 fps velocity range. I know some of you think Sabbatis are crap, but the more I shoot it, the more I like it. Cheers, jorge

jorge

there is no flys on that target, congratulations on a rifle you clearly shoot very well.

peter

Nice target Jorge

Did you ever get any resolution or satisfaction from that crook Greg Hein?

Andy
Cane Rat (used to be adrook and bought your .450 Dakota brass several years ago)

:::SIGH::: Nope he screwed me out of six grand. Took him to court won a judgment which he agreed to settle, reneged on that, was cited for contempt of court and a Bench Warrant issued, but since it's a civil matter the police don't bother with them unless it's a criminal matter. The laws favor the perpetrator leaving guys like me holding the bag. What makes it even more egregeous, is he took my money when I was deployed in support of the war in Afghanistan. A despicable human being that will never get what's coming to him. But thanks for asking! jorge

Gee Jorge,

Sorry to hear that, I was hoping that perhaps you and Howard and gotten some closure. What an asshole, screwing a serviceman in wartime is about as low as one can go. Do you have any idea of his whereabouts?

Andy

Sure do:
Gregory Hein
13403 E. 15th Ave
Spokane, WA 99216
Lincoln County Arrest Warrant # 708-2-0061-4

Too bad you all don't know a sympathetic LEO up there who'd be willing to pick him up on the warrant and toss him in the clink. Bet you'd have your money in a heartbeat, I did that once with a deadbeat who owed me money and the judge ruled in contempt and issued a warrant but it was a small town and all the cops were friends of mine.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread but I do wish you the best and hope you get your money back.

Hey I'll make the offer public again, anybody that gets him thrown in the slammer and collects, I'll give him fifty per cent!

Contact a bondsman in Spokane, maybe one will take you up on your offer.

Hi:
This is some nice shooting / target, indeed some times we have to go back to basics and learn how to shoot iron anew. I am afraid I might have to do the same.
Congret
Keep on shooting straight and enjoy it.
God's blessings

Malek

Always thought I might like to try being a bounty hunter....but prefer to bring them in draped over a saddle. That wouldn't collect much for you Jorge. And by the way, nope, don't get tired of your posts or targets...keep it up.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Garby and all, this double rifle stuff is dangerously addictive

Why do you think they're referred to as "dangerous" game rifles?

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Hi guys, in light of all the justifiable Sabbati bad news out there, I went out on a rainy day here in Jax to try out that same load of 93.7gr of H-4831 (what I measured from a loaded factory round as I mentioned before) and the results were, well you be the judge:
Six 480gr Woodleighs once fired brass (untrimmed) and crimped with a Lee custom Factory Crimp die. Velocity @ 2060 (I question the velocities as the rainy weather gave me erratic fps, but POI remained constant):



I then went and double checked my factory loads @ 50 yards. These appeared to cross slightly, but at 50 yards on a rainy day even my Naval Aviator (old!) eyes are suspect, but with groups like these, who cares!:



Lastly, a question for you experts; The Woodleighs seat about 1/4" further out that the DGXs so they powder "rattled" more in the case. I have no idea as to what too much empty space is (those of you with a Hornady manual is there any mention of this? They list minimun loads in the 88gr range with no mention of a filler so I guess I'm ok?). Also Graeme's book listed considerably heavier loads >98gr to achieve these velocities but he used H-4831 SC instead of the regular cut, can that be the difference? Thanks again for all the help offered and I sure hope I'm not boring you guys! jorge

jorge

that rifle is shooting really good, and it seems like it loves the woody's as well, i like the VC as well but you still have a very nice shooting double there

good for you

peter

thanks, Peter! so far so good and it's great to get support from sn expert like you! jorge

i wont call me an expert, but i am a really well founded amateur.

amateur = a person who does it for the love of it, instead of for the money.

best

peter

Jorge

I am happy you have had good results.

How does it shoot factory ammo ?
I was not lucky with fatory ammo at all, that was the deal breaker for me.

Nitro

Nitro; the bottom picture here is factory ammo. Also if you go back a page you can see other targets with the factory stuff. Pretty good groups and one target has both factory and my loads shooting on top of each other. I still have a lot of reservations on this whole issue, but I think I'm too far down the road. Still, had I know about the regulation issue, I would not have purchased the rifle. I'll have to look at this as a "glass is half full" proposition the way this rifle's shooting. jorge

Jorge

Had mine shot factory ammo, I would have seriously considered keeping it.
I don't like the "regulation" method they use.
But I liked everything else about the gun.

Nitro

Good shooting Jorge, I would not want to be in your sights. Drop a powder charge and hold a bullet next to the case to to see how much space you have. Cut a little piece of foam that will compress the powder just a little. Chrno to see if its more consistant on the SD. It may pick up a little so you may drop a grain or two. If it brings down the sd its worth doing otherwise not.

JD

thanks, JD, I'll give it a try.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Lastly, a question for you experts; The Woodleighs seat about 1/4" further out that the DGXs so they powder "rattled" more in the case.

jorge,
Which Woodleigh's do you have? Stock number 24A is a 458WinMag projectile with cannelure further towards rear, stock #24 is the 450Nitro projectile with cannelure further towards the front.
Cheers...
Con

oops, 24A but they shoot! I just got off the phone with Hornady and they tell me even with 88gr there is no need for a filler. My brain's about to explode with all these details! Now the question is, are the 24As suitable (pressure issues) in the NE? They seemed to shoot extremely well. I need a vacation from "doubles"!

Should be no issue substituting the 24 for the 24A. Woodleigh released the 24A because it's a nice weight for the 458WinMag, but the 24's cannelure was cut at the wrong place for it and limited case capacity ... for those that want to run their 458WM like a Lott.

Exactly the same projectile, just a different cannelure position. Maybe try the 24 if the air space annoys you. Otherwise, why fiddle with a winning combination?
Cheers...
Con

Yeah, they surprised the hell out of me as to how well they shot. I mean I had two in the same hole at 50 yards but I didn't think anyone would believe me, especially out of a Sabbati!

Gentleman great post it gets the creative juices flowing as I am planning on taking my Gibbs .450 (28" barrels)to Africa soon. My current working load is 84g of rl 15, fed 215 primers and 3gr of dacron 4grs by the way opened the group and increased the variance tremendously. I am quite happy with this load and it passes over the chrony at 2150 fps. Always the tinkerer I may give H4831 a try to get rid of the dacron.
For a reduced load I have used two loads both utilizing Hawk,s 350 gr bullets. As a rule they do not come with cannelures but Hawk will put them in for you if you ask, I happen to have a cannelure tool so it is a easy step. Try putting the 350 on top of your working load a little softer a little snappier but shoots pretty much to point of aim witch is good enough for practice. My other load is 63grs of IMR 3031 and 2grs of dacron under Hawks 350gr bullet, much softer shoots a bit lower but still these are good practice rounds to use for shooting and handling drills.....glad to see all your work at the bench pay off... best of luck...as always please use my reload recipes wisely Bob R

I just returned from the range and learned a couple of things. Shooting of the sticks presents a whole new set of variables, possibly a reason as to why some of you guys could not duplicate the factory target. If you look at this first target I shot off sticks, there a a couple of shots that opened up the group both horizontally and vertically. Well I discovered that I tended to cant my rifle "left wing down" and when I did that, the groups behaved differently. As soon as I made a concius effort to ensure the rifle was level, the groups tightened back up as evidenced by the holes in the orange:


Just to make sure, I went back to the bench and my bags and when I ensured the rifle was level, I was holding the forend tightly as well as my grip, the rifle went back to tight groups:



Lastly, this rifle does NOT LIKE squeaky clean bare metal bores. I find that it takes it about four rounds (two from each barrel) before it settles down, but after about twenty rounds, I need to do a copper scrub with Wipeout. I'm sure a lot of you old hands already know this, but I'm learning as I go and I hope some of you find this helpful.

Bob, I sure would like to see a picture of your rifle! jorge

Bob R

Thanks for posting that picture! what a beautiful old British double and in the "perfect" caliner too! Congrats, that's a beaut! jorge