It has been about 6-9 months since the regulation issues regarding Sabbati's have come to the fore-front. I have been following the new listings from Cabelas and there appears to be either a markedly change in the way the guns are being regulated or in the way the regulation targets are being presented. The targets shown seem to be much, much better with minimal to no correction. There is still no indication as to which hole represents which barrel.

Has Sabbati got the message and re-dedicated themselves to doing the job right? Or is it merely a smoke screen?

It's time for someone high up with Cabelas to come out on this forum and give us the truth. Their customers deserve to know, and potential customers deserve to know. I would personally consider buying one if I knew that Sabbati, USSG, and Cabelas is up to the task to get these guns properly regulated, have a warranty site that can actually service the guns, and (as Cabelas has done) guarantee these guns to shoot properly.

I doubt seriously if any of the executives from Cabelas are following these threads, but they should. There is tremendous potential for these rifles with only a little more effort. If this effort requires a 30% price increase, forget it. Buy a Merkel or Chapuis. We know for sure that Merkels shoots well.

But I would love to buy an extractor gun for under $5000.

What's your thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
or in the way the regulation targets are being presented. The targets shown seem to be much, much better with minimal to no correction. There is still no indication as to which hole represents which barrel.

Good post and I agree, it is worth re visiting.

What do you mean by "much better with minimal to no correction."

I haven't looked at the Cabela's web site but I thought a Test target showed 2 or 4 shots AFTER all regulation was done - ie so why would there be any correction ????

Maybe I am misreading your post.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
or in the way the regulation targets are being presented. The targets shown seem to be much, much better with minimal to no correction. There is still no indication as to which hole represents which barrel.

Good post and I agree, it is worth re visiting.

What do you mean by "much better with minimal to no correction."

I haven't looked at the Cabela's web site but I thought a Test target showed 2 or 4 shots AFTER all regulation was done - ie so why would there be any correction ????

Maybe I am misreading your post.

.

In most of their older listings, the targets showed at least 3 and sometimes more holes before they circled the two shot group and labeled it "final".

Many of the new regulation targets show only 2, and at most 3 holes and the groups seem to be much closer and at center of bull.

My question is: Has Cabelas/Sabbati tightened the tolerances and techniques required for regulaiton of these guns? We need to hear something from them regarding any changes they have made to their regulation process.

My fear is they would not release any such changes because of all the older regulated guns still out there for sale.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
or in the way the regulation targets are being presented. The targets shown seem to be much, much better with minimal to no correction. There is still no indication as to which hole represents which barrel.

Good post and I agree, it is worth re visiting.

What do you mean by "much better with minimal to no correction."

I haven't looked at the Cabela's web site but I thought a Test target showed 2 or 4 shots AFTER all regulation was done - ie so why would there be any correction ????

Maybe I am misreading your post.

.

I think what he is eluding to is the fact that the test targets before, were showing the regulation had been adjusted by grinding the muzzles because the regular regulation had not done the job. The bullet holes on those targets were listed a final adjustment.

However that meant nothing because Nitro450Express had a 450NE 3 1/4" Sabatti that the target showed a 3", two shot group, as FINAL ADJUSTMENT but the rifle was lucky to print one barrel within 8 inches of the other barrel at 25 yds with the factory ammo the rifle was supposedly regulated with! To add to that the target doesn't show which barrel hit which hole. With that in mind haw do we know the rifle was not crossing, or shooting wide! In the case of Nitro's rifle it made little difference because 8" two shot groups at 25 yds who cares? He sent it back!

I was tempted to buy one when they first came out! I went to Cabela's booth and looked them over pretty well, and decided to wait and see how they stood up to some shooting. Sheeees! Glad I held off. As of now, they would have to do some real talking, and making some rock hard guarintees before I would even consider it today!

................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
or in the way the regulation targets are being presented. The targets shown seem to be much, much better with minimal to no correction. There is still no indication as to which hole represents which barrel.

Good post and I agree, it is worth re visiting.

What do you mean by "much better with minimal to no correction."

I haven't looked at the Cabela's web site but I thought a Test target showed 2 or 4 shots AFTER all regulation was done - ie so why would there be any correction ????

Maybe I am misreading your post.

.

I think what he is eluding to is the fact that the test targets before, were showing the regulation had been adjusted by grinding the muzzles because the regular regulation had not done the job. The bullet holes on those targets were listed a final adjustment.

However that meant nothing because Nitro450Express had a 450NE 3 1/4" Sabatti that the target showed a 3", two shot group, as FINAL ADJUSTMENT but the rifle was lucky to print one barrel within 8 inches of the other barrel at 25 yds with the factory ammo the rifle was supposedly regulated with! To add to that the target doesn't show which barrel hit which hole. With that in mind haw do we know the rifle was not crossing, or shooting wide! In the case of Nitro's rifle it made little difference because 8" two shot groups at 25 yds who cares? He sent it back!

I was tempted to buy one when they first came out! I went to Cabela's booth and looked them over pretty well, and decided to wait and see how they stood up to some shooting. Sheeees! Glad I held off. As of now, they would have to do some real talking, and making some rock hard guarintees before I would even consider it today!

................................

Mac,

Thanks for your post. Quite honestly, I am befuddled by the targets I am seeing from their listings.???

The extractor guns are listed at $4999. At what price would any sane gunman buy one and take a risk of either losing their money or having a crappy DR that has to be returned. Apparently Will is willing to take such a chance with his .450NE 7.5lb DR.

Cabelas needs to come out of the closet and make a statement across the board for all customers as to the technical standards of the production of these guns and their guarantee of them, or they need to greatly discount them at a price that is conducive to buyer beware.

Buy an extractor gun for $2500, no returns, no warranty, no excuses, etc.


Or, Cabelas has to work with Sabbati and they have guarnteed these guns to be properly regulated without the need of the dremel tool.

To continue to sell these guns given the number they are importing, they have got to make them shoot true or discount them to the level of a Baikal.

I don't know the answer, but someone from upper level Cabelas needs to come out and speak.

I think a test target should show:-
- the aiming point
- 2 or 4 holes with
- the holes identified as R1, R2, L1, L2.

That's what I do when someone asks to see a test target and it is clear, concise and no one can misunderstand it.

I sometimes add where the bead sits in relation to the V so they know what sight picture I use but I do not expect that for a factory rifle.

.

It would be so much easier to just make the things work in the first place and be done with it.

Then we wouldn't have this lottery and worry about needing to return them.

This whole thing is such a waste of time, anyone in business knows that returns are painful and need handling quickly and efficiently.

If a product has a failure rate over a certain percentage, then IMHO you ditch the product.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
It would be so much easier to just make the things work in the first place and be done with it.

Then we wouldn't have this lottery and worry about needing to return them.

This whole thing is such a waste of time, anyone in business knows that returns are painful and need handling quickly and efficiently.

If a product has a failure rate over a certain percentage, then IMHO you ditch the product.

.

You are so right. But it' not reality. I want to hear something from Cabelas management or from Sabbati.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I want to hear something from Cabelas management or from Sabbati.

My only comment to that is "In your dreams" !!! LOL


.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
It would be so much easier to just make the things work in the first place and be done with it.

Then we wouldn't have this lottery and worry about needing to return them.

This whole thing is such a waste of time, anyone in business knows that returns are painful and need handling quickly and efficiently.

If a product has a failure rate over a certain percentage, then IMHO you ditch the product.

.

You are so right. But it' not reality. I want to hear something from Cabelas management or from Sabbati.

Well Sir, you must let us know their response to your email.

Though my Sabatti 450 will be the scorn of AR for years to come, it is what I wanted: A flyweight 450. For cheap I had to sacrifice the single trigger and ejectors but it shoots well with the factory sights at elephant spitting distance.

If it lasts a hundred rounds but not two hundred rounds I figure it was a good investment and I'll send it off to the burial ground.

I was going to post a picture of the left and right siting there side by side about an inch apart. I was going to claim that it was the sighting-in target at a hundred yards.

But then I didn't want the Sabatti haters to feel bad. So I won't. But then the side by side shots are only at ten yards instead of a hundred.

The Sabattis are not like the good guns but if I can find one that shoots and works, it's close enough for white trash like me!

My 45-70, with ground muzzles, shoots minute of groundhog and minute of Corsican sheep. I hope that in a couple of weeks it'll shoot minute of elk. I can see why people don't like the regulation method for dg, but for practice and most of America's game one would be okay. If I had my Sabatti a year ago, I would've shot my moose with it. In a month I'll take it on my UT elk and mule deer hunt. I know a lot of people have had MAJOR issues with them, but there are others (like me) who grab their cheep made Italian double and stalk deer or pigs pretending they are hunting dg in Africa.

I have waited many months to post while waiting to see what transpired regarding the Sabbati rifles.
It seems to me that a lot is being said about them by people that have not owned one yet and some issues
with them came to light after I made my purchase of a 450NE without ejectors. Mine was one of the earlier
ones which I purchased only after handeling one at the SCI show. The rifle looked good, felt good & fit me well. I knew there was some risk but decided to take it as I feel that I am aware of what makes a reliable
gun. I will say that I have been a LE officer for 34 years and have extensive experience with firearms and
have had to depend on them many times under many circumstances. I also have a history of getting rid of ANY firearm that malfunctions for me even one time and even after fixing the apparant problem - thats just me.
I bought the Sabbati with the sole purpose of hunting an elephant and always dreamed of using a DR to do it.
I wanted a DR since I was five years old and did not want to break the bank on the elephant hunt to do so.
I shoot a lot and figured that if the rifle turned out to be flawed in any way I would use a bolt gun for the elephant and sell the DR. With help from many on this forum I made my rifle purchase and worked up a proper load for it. I have fired now 369 rounds from this Sabbati. It is as tight today as the day I purchased it. It shoots well past 100 yards and I have shot it benched from 200 yards. Never a malfunction of any sort. Recoil is not too much for me and the gun handles quickly and carries well. The metal work is very good. The wood is very good. The wood to metal fit and finish is perfect. The muzzles on my rifle are
as they should be ( and I will add here that if the muzzles were dremmeled I would not have made the purchase). I can shoot it all day from 50 yards and group both barrels to cover all shots with a closed fist. To be fair, other DR rifles have issues as well and you can verify this by reading this forum. I have even had a gunsmith friend tell me of known experiences with problems with makes like H&H.
I am happy with my rifle and confident in it. I have taken a trophy bull elephant in Zimbabwe with it and afterwards stopped the charge of a second problem bull ele with it as well. I dought either knew it was a Sabbati and dought they would have known if it was another make. Bottom line ---- My rifle is very good and I would not hesitate to by another IF it was proiperly regulated. This rifle can be a very good buy for money. Hope this helps.

I am not an expert or something similar as I own only one double and it's a Sabtti 9,3x74.

I have shot around 100 rounds and it shoots quite accurate if I do my part. At 80/100 metres I always hit with both barrels to targets of 15 by 15 inches....for me it's enough for pigs but maybe not for the rest of you ?

This is good or bad accuracy for a double rifle ?

Maybe the ones brought to South America are better than the ones that went to the States ?

L

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
I have shot around 100 rounds and it shoots quite accurate if I do my part. At 80/100 metres I always hit with both barrels to targets of 15 by 15 inches....for me it's enough for pigs but maybe not for the rest of you ?

This is good or bad accuracy for a double rifle ?

Maybe the ones brought to South America are better than the ones that went to the States ?

L

"I always hit with both barrels to targets of 15 by 15 inches"


Is that the target is 15 x 15 inches or the group size for the barrels ? (ie 2 or 4 shots in a 15 x 15 square or 15 inch circle ?)

If so, that is NOT good accuracy - should at least be able to get all in an 8" circle (that is the gun).

HOWEVER, is that the accuracy of the gun or your DR shooting ability and ability to hold exactly the same sight picture 100 Metres ????


How far apart are the 2 barrels shooting ?


.

Clayman - congrats on the Sabatti. I also am glad I bought mine and although I only have about 100+ rounds through it, am very happy. I did have to have a gunsmith fit a new sight and recoil pad, but other than that, am pleased. I am looking forward to taking my Sabatti to Africa as well. Was looking at just Zim buff hunts but may expand to a non-trophy elephant if the price is right. I would have no qualms using it on DG nor would I have any reservations recommending one that didn't have the dremel issue. For the average man who has long wanted a double, they are an affordable means of attaining it without busting the bank.

quote:

I would have no qualms using it on DG nor would I have any reservations recommending one that didn't have the dremel issue.

I don't think any of the nay sayers re Sabs (me included) would have a problem recommending the purchase of a Sab without the Dremmel issue as long as the test targets were truthful and people knew which hole related to which barrel.

.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
It seems to me that a lot is being said about them by people that have not owned one yet and some issues
with them came to light after I made my purchase of a 450NE without ejectors.

I may not have owned one but have handled quite a few (before and after they hit the market) and was one who said early that corners had been cut - which proved to be true in some cases.

You don't need to own everything to make valued comment on something.

.

I have a non ground 45-70, and it shoots well, so I think atleast some of their guns shoot well. But I couldn't tell you if thats pure luck, or simply them taking the time to do it right.


So it can be done, for the price, they simply have to commit to doing it right the first time, every time.


Now we could get off on a tangent of why they seem to regulate their guns with light bullets (325 grain in 45-70l, and 232 in some 9.3's) but that makes as much sense as dremeling the guns did....

Well said Clayman216. I am also an old law enforcement officer (now retired) and have spent most of my life dealing with a wide variety of firearms. I have two other double rifles (German & Austrian & very expensive) beside my Sabatti .45-70. Of the three, the Sabatti is the most accurate and I can consistently break clay targets at 110 yds. with the open sights AND with either barrel. The rifle has had over 100 rounds through it this year and has accounted for two wild hogs thus far. It is as tight and accurate as the day I bought it. I did have the stock cut to a 14 1/2 in. LOP and had a much better pad installed, which greatly enhanced the fit and appearance of the rifle. It boggles my mind to read all the bashing going on about the Sabatti's, but I guess everybody is an expert, especially when it comes to guns. As far as I'm concerned, the Sabatti's are one hell of a gun for the money, and we sure don't see too many of them on the used gun market. Thanks again for all of your info, experiences and perspective.

Full disclosure for those that are new, but I had a Sabbati in 450NE that shot fabulously, even though it had one of the ground barrels. I just could not accept that so I returned it to Cabelas.

Be that as it may, the fit and finish of mine was on a par with many of the doubles discussed here. It was tight, even after two hundred plus rounds. I would buy another one provided the barrel issue was resolved. jorge

I don't think anyone has a problem with the fit and finish of them.

However, as another poster pointed out a while ago, if it doesn't shoot, it is just a metal and wood club !!! LOL

.

Well mine shot and shot well and I'll put up those targets against other rifles here and just to refresh:

Can you always tell if a barrel has been ground?

If you check one with a digital caliper,it appears OK, and then look at the test target
with "final tuning" holes. How was that gun regulated if barrels not dremeled?

quote:

Originally posted by Lilguy:
Can you always tell if a barrel has been ground?

If you check one with a digital caliper,it appears OK, and then look at the test target
with "final tuning" holes. How was that gun regulated if barrels not dremeled?

I report, you decide:

I've seen a 45/70 with an egg shaped crown.
Also 3 in 40 nitro calibers that do not appear
to be dremeled but had "final tuning" targets
with major changes in impact points.Would one be able to measure out of round at muzzle and know if lite grinding had taken place?

This rifle's left barrel has been gorund at the top of the crown!

Question posed by mdstewart is appreciated. Cabelas needs to state what has been done by Sabatti to correct the regualtion issues, specifically, muzzle grinding, now so well known. If and when Sabatti changes and improves its factory regulation technniques, it needs to be publicized by Cabelas.

Comments by Clayman216 and others are appreciated too, as they reflect a lot of my own experiences with my Sabatti rifles. My .470 and .500 have not been muzzle ground at all, due, I think, to pure luck; the 470 is regulated as well, or slightly better than other rifles I have from top English makers. Additionally, my .470 has quite a fancy piece of good English Walnut; I love it. I briefly had a .450/.400, but returned it to Cabelas when I learned that it previously had been sold; had the muzzle grinding issues, but was returned by Cabelas for correction before they sold it to me (they didn't tell me all this when I bought it). After the work, it may have been fine, but I didn't want to deal with it, under those conditions.

I have now done a considerable amount of custom work on both my .470 and .500, so have had the actions stripped down completely, learning the following in the process (these comments apply only to Sabatti big bore rifles; not to the lower cost smaller calibers--I have no experience with them at all): In comparison to numerous other double rifles I have worked on in past years, and numerous ones I own, classic to modern British/Austrian-German/French, the Sabatti actions are extremely well designed and made, from the finest of modern tri-alloy steels, heat treated, leaving a very hard surface, tough throughout; and finished superbly, with some sort of electroplating, or similar overcoat for long term corrosion resistance. The machine engraving is among best machine engraving I have ever seen, done using an engraving pattern designed by an exceptional and talented Italian engraver. These actions are heavy where they need to be, and, I am sure, will hold up as well or better than ANY other modern double rifle action on the market today, they are stout and tough; beautifully designed. Due to the use of modern alloy steels all modern double rifles, including Sabatti, will hold up better than any of the good old classic doubles of the past, which did not use alloy steels in actions. Sabatti uses The Purdey underbolt, which, in the Sabatti, is quite robust; of same thickness as found in the Verney Carrion double rifles. All springs, in Sabatti, except one (top lever spring is coil), are the preferable, in my opinion, V type (also found in the ejectors), well made, well polished, well fit, all of excellent workmanship. Personally, I would not hesitate to buy another Sabatti double rifle, IF muzzles were not ground, BUT, in so doing, I have no fear of regulation issues with them, because, if I were to have a Sabatti needing to be re-regulated, I would simply regulate it myself (learned the process in gunsmithing school, from W. Ellis Brown, in his class converting shotgun actions to double rifle, prior to his writing book on same subject). Naturally, the average person would not be able to re-regulate their Sabatti, so that would have to be taken into consideration in their decision to buy or not buy Sabatti. However, as far as I can determine, Cabellas has been more than cordial in accepting returned Sabatti rifles. As you can see, I LIKE SABATTI RIFLES A LOT, AND ONLY HOPE THAT THE COMPANY IMPROVES ITS PRODUCTION METHODS IN THE FUTURE. FOR THE RIGHT BUYER, THEY ARE AN EXCELLENT RIFLE THAT WILL LAST A LIFETIME. We constantly hear "opinions" from the Sabatti haters, but some of them, we must learn, have ulterior motives when they bash Sabatti. One guy even claimed that the Sabatti actions were made in Turkey---GIVE ME A BREAK!

doubleriflejack

Excellent report on the internals / build quality.
very interesting.

Now if they could just go that 10% more with the regulation .........

.

DRJ your post above is a very well written one, and I agree completely that "IF" a buyer gets one of the good ones, the Sabatties are the bargain of the century. However it is no mystery why many are reluctant to buy a double rifle that has so many documented problems with such a percentage of the rifles sold! In the case of Sabatti “IF” is a very large word wouldn’t you say? IMO, reputation is everything when it comes to a double rifle chambered for cartridges that are historically designed for use on the most dangerous game on Earth, and a double rifle with problems is certainly not a sure bet in that use!

I See absolutely nothing wrong in making potential buyers aware of the problems being experienced by others with any brand double rifle no matter the price! A cheap rifle that shoots well is a bargain, “IF” you are lucky to get one that does, but is a rip-off if it doesn’t! Till the makers, and sellers come up with a, rock hard, guarantee that their product will work as advertised, I say buyer beware!

I really wish these things had been consistent in their quality, because I really wanted one chambered for 450/400NE 3”, and almost bought one! In hind-sight I’m very glad I resisted! A quality control issue is very hard to live down ones it is made public! Too bad because they had an opportunity to corner the market in the USA on double rifles! I’m afraid that chance has slipped away, with the issues never to be lived down!

.................................................... ......................

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
I have shot around 100 rounds and it shoots quite accurate if I do my part. At 80/100 metres I always hit with both barrels to targets of 15 by 15 inches....for me it's enough for pigs but maybe not for the rest of you ?

This is good or bad accuracy for a double rifle ?

Maybe the ones brought to South America are better than the ones that went to the States ?

L

"I always hit with both barrels to targets of 15 by 15 inches"


Is that the target is 15 x 15 inches or the group size for the barrels ? (ie 2 or 4 shots in a 15 x 15 square or 15 inch circle ?)

If so, that is NOT good accuracy - should at least be able to get all in an 8" circle (that is the gun).

HOWEVER, is that the accuracy of the gun or your DR shooting ability and ability to hold exactly the same sight picture 100 Metres ????


How far apart are the 2 barrels shooting ?


.

My english is not very good so I don't know if I understood your questios but I will do my best...

I am saying that shooting standing (off hand)to logs we use to the fire place about the size of 30 cm (15 inches?)by 30 cm I can hit them with both barrels quite quickly.

Is that bad ? For my pig hunting is more than enough as the hole is big but as I said maybe is not so good for double rifles, I don't have idea...

At the club when I shot with my hand between the rifle and a sand bag the accuracy was much better, both shots where side by side separated one inch at 50 yards.

It seems that at longer shots the right barrel is more accurate.

I don't know if I answered your questions

Regards
L

Just for add some more data...tha ammo was Norma 285 grains, I have noy tried anything else as is difficult here to find shooting stuff.

Now I have some boxes of also Norma ammo but with 232 grains Vulkan bullets. i have not tried them so far.

L

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
At the club when I shot with my hand between the rifle and a sand bag the accuracy was much better, both shots where side by side separated one inch at 50 yards.
Regards
L

"side by side separated one inch at 50 yards."

Sounds good to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

I am saying that shooting standing (off hand)to logs we use to the fire place about the size of 30 cm (15 inches?)by 30 cm I can hit them with both barrels quite quickly.

Regards
L

"I can hit them with both barrels quite quickly."


IMHO, I would go for accuracy over speed at the beginning and then work on speed.


But it looks like you are "on the money" so far
from what you have posted.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
At the club when I shot with my hand between the rifle and a sand bag the accuracy was much better, both shots where side by side separated one inch at 50 yards.
Regards
L

"side by side separated one inch at 50 yards."

Sounds good to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

I am saying that shooting standing (off hand)to logs we use to the fire place about the size of 30 cm (15 inches?)by 30 cm I can hit them with both barrels quite quickly.

Regards
L

"I can hit them with both barrels quite quickly."


IMHO, I would go for accuracy over speed at the beginning and then work on speed.


But it looks like you are "on the money" so far
from what you have posted.

.

I agree with 500N, the rested targets are perfect IOM, and for snap shooing off hand at 80-100 yards the hitting inside a 15X15 in target is not all that bad no matter what rifle and sights you are shooting. I also agree that the instinctive shooting would be better if the first two shots were inside 8 inches but I’d say there are few here who could do better than the 15X15 off hand at 80-100 yards snap shooting!

I also agree with 500N on the concentrating on accuracy on those off hand shots at 80-100 yd off hand shots. Slow down and concentrate on placement and slowly work up the speed of getting off the first two shots. With practice the instinctive factor will take over and the two shot group at 80-100 yards will tighten up with faster and faster second shots.
I think Lorenzo is well on his way to formulating his instinctive shooting with a double rifle. I can tell you that once he gets to a point that his first shot on a running wild boar is a hit 8 out of ten times, within 50 yards he is home, and a cape or water buffalo will be in trouble!

I know one thing about the Sabbatis and Cabela's is that they are recycling the returned rifles at different stores than where they were purchased/returned. Unfortunately I bought a deluxe model 92 in .450/400 from the Hazelwood, Missouri store. The rifle is currently for sale at the Wheeling, West Virginia store. When I bought the gun there was absolutely no Hornady ammunition available for the rifle and since the length of pull was too great for me I shortened the stock, put on a new recoil pad, and was in the process of applying a "London Oil" finish to the stock (on the 8th month). I finally got some ammo and went to the range to test fire the gun. At 50 yards, the supposed regulation range, the right barrel shot left of the vertical axis 10 inches and 8 inches high. The left barrel did the same thing to the right of the vertical axis at approimately the measurements. This gun didn't even come remotely close to what the regulation target showed when I bought the rifle. The crowns of both barrels showed some lack of rifling which I assumed was the result of their dremel tool regulation. It wouldn't have bothered me much if it had shot fairly close to what the regulation target showed, however, when I shot it at 25 yards the bullets were still crossing although the distance had decreased to about two inches, however, there was a distance of about 10 inches on the horizontal axis. To make a long story short I was credited back the full amount of the purchase although that took a phone call to the corporate headquarters since they originally were only going to refund half the purchase price. A warning to any person looking to buy this particular rifle, take out a bunch of life insurance if you plan on purchasing this rifle and taking it on a dangerous game hunt. This is no slam on the people who bought Sabattis which are shooters but I sure got a lemon. I currently have an order in with Butch for a field grade double rifle in the same caliber.

I've been fortunate enough to have shot both the 450/400 and 450 NE in the Sabatti (not my guns). Both shot well, and met or beat the test target results. Were the owners of these DRs lucky? One could say or think as much.

As for those with Dremel-regulated barrels, it is understandable and agreeable that these guns hould be returned for repair, or refund. Having said that, I consider it a poor business practice by Cabela's to recycle those guns.

Qhat I have wondered all along, and whilst reading the first-hand and regurgitated horror stories is this. What if one where to properly re-crown the muzzle(s)? (I understand that this might truly void any chance Cabela's would honor a return or refund, but it would be interesting to see what results proper re-crowning brought.) Are the Dremel cuts so deep that re-crowning would be of no consequence?

Lastly, I've wondered what Cablela's policy on looking at the barrels of the Sabatti through a bore-scope during the pre-purchase inspection would be? (Granted, not everyone has access to a bore-scope.)

From what I understand Sabatti has the barrels cut off, recrowned and reregulated if allowed.
I have checked rifles with a bore scope and digital caliper and found some that appear not to have been dremeled. The test targets show the gun being final tuned. First pair of shots 5-8 inch
spread and 1/2 in spread final tuning set.
I'm wondering how the final tune is achieved
with out grinding?

2Barrel and Lilguy:
Based on reports from other owners, owners who have returned their Sabatti rifles having ground rifling, for "repair,"it seems to me that what has been happening is that Cables has been sending them to their Florida importer for correction. I know for a fact that this Florida importer has one or more "gunsmiths" because I have talked with them on phone (regarding non Sabatti issues). In at least one case, a dissatisfied Sabatti owner was told by Cabelas that his rifle was to be returned to Italy, but I don't believe it; think it was only returned to the importer for correction. In all cases that I am familiar with, the questionable rifles with ground muzzles, were cut slightly shorter, cutting off the ground out section(s), recrowning them; probably not re regulating them at all, and if they were re regulated, they were not well re regulated at all, based on end results I am aware of. If a rifle was shooting with a spread of 6-8 inches prior to the rifling grinding, and it were re crowned only; not re-regulated, it would return to its original 6-8 inch spread. It seems to me that Sabatti had simply taken a shortcut, in its attempt to get acceptable regulation spread on some of its rifles. If anyone is aware of good results from a rifle with ground rifling, that was "corrected," worked on, I would like to hear about it. Personally, I have no confidence in any work done by the Florida importer, and can only wonder if the gun maker, Sabatti, has done any correction work of this nature, on their rifles with ground muzzles. I am hoping that we consumers will, over time, put enough pressure on Cabelas, and they, in turn, will put same pressures on Sabatti, and this problem will one day be gone forever. Sabatti has to learn that they will not be able to take such shortcuts and sell their products in this country. Final tuning needs to be done by standard procedure of moving barrel wedge slightly, until proper regulation spread is achieved; soldering in place; not by stupid shortcut of grinding muzzle rifling until final tune is achieved!

Jack: Then it sounds from all this as though a fellow shopping for a Sabatti with both eyes open would: A) closely inspect muzzles with a hand lens for signs of the infamous grind, and B) measure barrels to standing breech to see if they were a fraction of an inch shorter than they should be. In the latter case, one would demand to see a "re-regulation" target or hand it back to the Gun Librarian and go on to the next one. The damned thing about this Sabatti business is that if you do get one properly regulated, it's a hell of a buy.

Would Cabela's sell these rifles a New or would they be used guns that may have been fired 10 to 200 rounds?