quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot a DR from a lead sled. Those are evil contraptions which should be banned. You will alter the recoil flip and jump upon which the regulation depends, and you risk damaging the butt stock inletting, especially on DG calibers. And you risk jarring off the left trigger, potentially causing a double. My opinion of course; I have never used one and do not intend to ever own one. Rifles were intended to be shot from the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Does anyone foresee a problem shooting a 9.3 x 74R double from a lead sled to check for initial regulation? My thought is this allows one a very precise aiming platform and eliminate the human error factor to a great degree. If so why, and what would be your procedure for a shooting rest, technique for this initial test? Thanks for the insight and help.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot a DR from a lead sled. Those are evil contraptions which should be banned. You will alter the recoil flip and jump upon which the regulation depends, and you risk damaging the butt stock inletting, especially on DG calibers. And you risk jarring off the left trigger, potentially causing a double. My opinion of course; I have never used one and do not intend to ever own one. Rifles were intended to be shot from the shoulder.

Pretty much right on. Not to mention there have been a few stocks broken at the wrist due to weighted up lead Sleds. Double rifles and lead sleds just don't work together. If you want a recoil reducer for your double you need one of the hydraulic ones like Butch uses for regulation work.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
No problem with that for sure.As long as you dont weigh it down so that it does not move at all.Anything to reduce unnecessary recoil is good.I was thinking of the same thing for my 500NE.I think I will just limit the shots to as few as possible.Dont worry about it not being accurate if you use one-that is bullshit from people who have not been there.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
No problem with that for sure.As long as you dont weigh it down so that it does not move at all.Anything to reduce unnecessary recoil is good.I was thinking of the same thing for my 500NE.I think I will just limit the shots to as few as possible.Dont worry about it not being accurate if you use one-that is bullshit from people who have not been there.

Shootaway. I'm sure the above advice is based on years of experience with the many double rifles you have owned!

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quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont smoke crack when I shoot my rifles.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


I shoot my .500 NE off of one of these all the time with 50 lbs of lead for load work-up. It shoots exactly to the same POI whether on the rest or off sticks.

I know other that do the same and have never heard of a problem. Granted...these are plastic and not steel like lead-sled.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I know that it is dangerous to inject facts into a discussion but here goes. Graeme Wright, who wrote Shooting the British Double Rifle and is frequently cited for his knowledge of information about shooting and reloading for double rifles, wrote:

"This invention [Caldwell Lead Sled] has been a great asset for those of us testing heavy recoiling rifles . . . When using the sled I still grip the rifle at the forend with my left hand and then let only my hand contact the forend holder . . . When I first starting using the rest I assumed that it would affect the regulation of a double rifle. To my pleasant surprise this had not turned out to be the case. My idea was that I would use the rest to develop loads that seemed suitable then check the regulation with the rest. In the majority of cases the rifles regulated the same with and without the rest. I always do a final check of the regulation with the rest but normally find it does not require any further change. Just a final word of caution; there have been reports of stock damage when using these rests although I have not had this experience. I believe the problem is putting too much weight onto the rest. If the rest is so heavy it can not move then it is like firing your rifle against a solid object. Use just enough weight to be comfortable and allow the rest to move."

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
My 4-bore shoots a one inch, one hole group at any distance.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


I shoot my .500 NE off of one of these all the time with 50 lbs of lead for load work-up. It shoots exactly to the same POI whether on the rest or off sticks.

I know other that do the same and have never heard of a problem. Granted...these are plastic and not steel like lead-sled.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I know that it is dangerous to inject facts into a discussion but here goes. Graeme Wright, who wrote Shooting the British Double Rifle and is frequently cited for his knowledge of information about shooting and reloading for double rifles, wrote:

"This invention [Caldwell Lead Sled] has been a great asset for those of us testing heavy recoiling rifles . . . When using the sled I still grip the rifle at the forend with my left hand and then let only my hand contact the forend holder.”

. . . When I first starting using the rest I assumed that it would affect the regulation of a double rifle. To my pleasant surprise this had not turned out to be the case. My idea was that I would use the rest to develop loads that seemed suitable then check the regulation with the rest. In the majority of cases the rifles regulated the same with and without the rest. I always do a final check of the regulation with the rest but normally find it does not require any further change. Just a final word of caution; there have been reports of stock damage when using these rests although I have not had this experience. I believe the problem is putting too much weight onto the rest. If the rest is so heavy it can not move then it is like firing your rifle against a solid object. Use just enough weight to be comfortable and allow the rest to move."

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Let's assume for a moment the unlikely, that testing your double rifle from a mechanical device does result in some level of shot placement that you like. What are you going to do whilst hunting? Certainly, you will not have your sled with you. You will be shooting from a "field" position; off sticks, sitting, resting against a tree, or flat offhand. Point is, do not rely on a lead sled as a platform from which to test rifles. I sit at a bench, as straightly as possible, and hold the rifle with both hands. True story; before the advent of the sled, a friend bought a "bulls bag"; simply a huge sand bag that gripped the rifle stock to prevent any recoil. His rifle never moved when gripped in that 75 pound monstrosity. One problem; once in the field, he could actually hit nothing, having never fired his rifle in any other position. Idiot. My friend, I mean, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Cal,
I think you are fibbing. Isn't the 4 bore bigger than 1" in diameter?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
When I had my 500NE I always used a Past Pad when shooting from the bench. Simple physics tells me that using a lead sled is going to put more stress on any rifle than firing it from the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I understand your goal; what I am saying is that any test of a DR must be done under the same conditions with which it was originally regulated. Just because you lock it down on a lead sled does not mean you will get a true picture of how it shoots from the hands and shoulder. For most double rifles, that will not give the same results. It is not hard to align sights for 50 yards to test rifles; it is not like bench rest testing at long range. Of course, this is all my opinion, it is all up to you; I said I do not own one and won't. I test double rifles from the bench, sitting straight, with both elbows supported.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
Larry I would try a standing rest as this will give you the stability to check regulation and reduce recoil. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Like you I use a PAST recoil shield when shooting most any rifle from a bench rest. The sled in this case is to be used primarily as a accurate sighting device. Thanks all.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I understand your goal; what I am saying is that any test of a DR must be done under the same conditions with which it was originally regulated. Just because you lock it down on a lead sled does not mean you will get a true picture of how it shoots from the hands and shoulder. For most double rifles, that will not give the same results. It is not hard to align sights for 50 yards to test rifles; it is not like bench rest testing at long range. Of course, this is all my opinion, it is all up to you; I said I do not own one and won't. I test double rifles from the bench, sitting straight, with both elbows supported.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Hey Larry,dont listen to these jerks you will get the ROYAL SHAFT!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Like you I use a PAST recoil shield when shooting most any rifle from a bench rest. The sled in this case is to be used primarily as a accurate sighting device. Thanks all.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I understand your goal; what I am saying is that any test of a DR must be done under the same conditions with which it was originally regulated. Just because you lock it down on a lead sled does not mean you will get a true picture of how it shoots from the hands and shoulder. For most double rifles, that will not give the same results. It is not hard to align sights for 50 yards to test rifles; it is not like bench rest testing at long range. Of course, this is all my opinion, it is all up to you; I said I do not own one and won't. I test double rifles from the bench, sitting straight, with both elbows supported.

Larry dpcd is correct! The sleds work fine for a single barreled rifle, but a double rifle works by it’s own set of rules! The barrels must absolutely be allowed to recoil in a natural manner. If the muzzle flip during the “barrel time” is restricted in any way it will not tell you if the rifle is regulated or not! I assume that is the reason for this test to find quickly if the rifle is regulated or not!

Each barrel, when fired, will rise, and move away from the other barrel. This is why the barrels must be converging. The line of sight through each barrel will be pointed at a point on the target that is LOW, and on the opposite side of the aiming point at the range engraved on the standing rear sight (or crossing). This so when the barrel is fired the recoil will cause the barrel to rise and move away from the other barrel. If the rifle was regulated properly, when the bullet exits the muzzle that barrel will be pointing to where the sight WAS when the trigger was pulled. So, if anything hinders the natural movement of the barrels the rifle will not regulate. A double rifle is designed to be fire under field conditions, fired from “ROOM TEMPRATURE” barrels for the first two shots. This is the point where proper regulation shows it’s self!

It is that a person who has shot single barreled rifles all his life simply cannot believe that he must forget every rule he has learned about the way a rifle works, much the same way a pilot of a fixed wing aircraft must forget what he has learned about flying when he tries to learn how to fly a helicopter. Like the single barreled rifle and the S/S double rifle they are two entirely different things and must be used by their own rules or they simply will not work properly.

So if you insist on using the Lead sled at least lower the front rest enough so you can place a soft pad on it so you can hold the fore-end wood in your hand rested on the pad while shooting so the barrels can move naturally under recoil.

Here’s hoping you don’t get the stock damage some report, from the tight side walls or the solid back stop of the rear rest. This may also restrict the barrel’s angled movement of the fired barrel away from the other barrel as well. That is the reason the MCM rest is a better choice for double rifles, not to mention about it being half the price!

Good luck! Hope you get a good one! If you try it your way, and don’t get what you want try it our way and see how that works! Larry it is your rifle after all, so do as you want, and please do not take offence to my and dpcd’s suggestions, they are meant to help you, not to dictate your actions!
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