Have a chance to buy an unfired safe queen Merkel in 470NE,the Big Game series with the standard scroll engraving,extractors,recoil reducer in buttstock that is factory,no case just the gun. Need to know a fair price to pay for me and the seller(it was gift to him and he has no clue what to ask)has a couple of safe dents(extremely minute but there) appears unfired,approx. 6-10 years old.
Thanks
Wesley

Wesley,

I find it hard to believe that the recoil reducer in buttstock is factory. I've been selling these DR's for over 10 years and have never seen that come from the factory. That doesn't mean that it has issues; just maybe not properly represented. This gun should sell on the used market for between $7500 and $9000. I would think $8300 would be average.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Wesley,

I find it hard to believe that the recoil reducer in buttstock is factory. I've been selling these DR's for over 10 years and have never seen that come from the factory. That doesn't mean that it has issues; just maybe not properly represented. This gun should sell on the used market for between $7500 and $9000. I would think $8300 would be average.

I agree with mdstewart! $8300 is a fair price for both you and your buddy!

I have the same model, and it is a 470NE as well. I've had that rifle for about ten years, with zero problem, and I bought it used as well. Mine has taken two bull elephant, and 3 cape buffalo, by it's previous owner, and several North American animals by me, all with out problem one! I wouldn't take $10K for mine and do without it, but as I said I consider the $8300 as a fair price, and if I didn't already have one, I'd buy that one in a heart beat at that price!
.......................................................................

Thanks guys for the price estimates. The recoil reducer is said to be factory and that is all I know. I have a Sabatti in 470 with ejectors and can't decide if I like the Merkel safety or not.
Thanks
Wesley

quote:

Originally posted by wesley timmerman:
Thanks guys for the price estimates. The recoil reducer is said to be factory and that is all I know. I have a Sabatti in 470 with ejectors and can't decide if I like the Merkel safety or not.
Thanks
Wesley

May I ask what about the Merkel safety is there to dislike? Like most big bore dangerous game double rifles it is a manual safety, rather than an auto safety, and that is a plus in it's favor! The last thing you want on a dangerous game double is an auto safety.

Quote from page 16 of the Merkel manual:

quote:

Double rifles in 375H&H,416Rigby,470NE, or 500NE are not equipped with automatic safeties because they are designed for dangerous game when the need for quick reloading and follow-up shots are critical!

Agree with Mac. What's not to like? I did have to have some work done on mine as it started jumping onto safe after the first shot. Stiffer spring solved the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I did have to have some work done on mine as it started jumping onto safe after the first shot.

I own a wonderfully regulated and very reliable Sabatti. It always troubles me to read posts like this. If Merkel had just put a little more effort into getting it right the first time, things like this would not happen. A safety engaging during a DG hunt could get you killed! Makes you wonder if their management even cares.

P.S. Sorry, I could not help myself.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I did have to have some work done on mine as it started jumping onto safe after the first shot.

I own a wonderfully regulated and very reliable Sabatti.

Lucky you!...

quote:

It always troubles me to read posts like this. If Merkel had just put a little more effort into getting it right the first time, things like this would not happen. A safety engaging during a DG hunt could get you killed! Makes you wonder if their management even cares.

P.S. Sorry, I could not help myself.

,
............................................................

Thanks JCS271 - You made my day with that one. Oh, by the way, I have a Sabatti and it shoots great and is reliable just like yours.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I did have to have some work done on mine as it started jumping onto safe after the first shot.

I own a wonderfully regulated and very reliable Sabatti. It always troubles me to read posts like this. If Merkel had just put a little more effort into getting it right the first time, things like this would not happen. A safety engaging during a DG hunt could get you killed! Makes you wonder if their management even cares.

P.S. Sorry, I could not help myself.

Eight to ten years ago merkels were 6k new now they are around 12k. Hard to justify that kind of increase when I see threads of bent triggers and reports of doubling. I will stick with my sabatti and put the extra 9k towards actually hunting with it.

Ken, at C-S Metalwerkes in St. Charles, MO has a safari grade Merkle ejector in .470 with two boxes of Federal Premium (a soft and a solid) in the case for $9,800.00. Don't know if this is spot on high or low.

He also has a safari special Remington with the Leuopold QD rings in .375 and 145 rounds of factory Remington for $1,195. Both like new.

Dutch

A Merkel 470 with ejectors just sold on Gun Broker last week for $8,300.

I have no ownership or financial interest in the above. Only for comparison prices to those interested.

Dutch

Ive been selling Merkel DR's for 10 years now. This is the first time Ive ever heard of a bent trigger, and I am good friends with the folks at Merkel /Steyr. As far as doubling goes, it is virtually always user fault.

I have personally sold dozens of Merkel DR's and many more dozen Merkel double shotguns. These reports are 1 in 300 and probably less.

Im glad that those of you who have had success with their Sabbattis are happy. But the success ratio of Sabbattis vs. Merkel is no comparison. Mrerkels are far superior and the true data supports that claim.

md - Not questioning your assumptions, but could you show us where we can access the "true data" about Merkels being far superior to Sabattis? Really would like to read up on it. Thanks.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Ive been selling Merkel DR's for 10 years now. This is the first time Ive ever heard of a bent trigger, and I am good friends with the folks at Merkel /Steyr. As far as doubling goes, it is virtually always user fault.

I have personally sold dozens of Merkel DR's and many more dozen Merkel double shotguns. These reports are 1 in 300 and probably less.

Im glad that those of you who have had success with their Sabbattis are happy. But the success ratio of Sabbattis vs. Merkel is no comparison. Mrerkels are far superior and the true data supports that claim.

Anybody that cannot see the difference between Sabattis & Merkels is well truly ........

The only real issue Sabatti has had was the muzzle grinding for regulation on some. Yes, the first one I got a hold of had issues when some amateur hack gunsmith worked on the triggers making the rifle unsafe, but hack gunsmithing isn't a manufacturing QC issue, like bent triggers. Oh, and Jorge has counted what, 12 doublings on Merkels? Oh yeah, Keighoffs are face slappers, so they are out as well.

My current Sabatti is starting to look awfully good...............

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
md - Not questioning your assumptions, but could you show us where we can access the "true data" about Merkels being far superior to Sabattis? Really would like to read up on it. Thanks.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Ive been selling Merkel DR's for 10 years now. This is the first time Ive ever heard of a bent trigger, and I am good friends with the folks at Merkel /Steyr. As far as doubling goes, it is virtually always user fault.

I have personally sold dozens of Merkel DR's and many more dozen Merkel double shotguns. These reports are 1 in 300 and probably less.

Im glad that those of you who have had success with their Sabbattis are happy. But the success ratio of Sabbattis vs. Merkel is no comparison. Mrerkels are far superior and the true data supports that claim.

The true data is the number of Merkels sold with pleased customers vs. Sabbattis sold with pleased customers. Merkel has been selling these DR's for around 20 years with great success and few problems. Sabbattis hsve been on the market for around 5 years with constant issues with regulation. It also appears Cabelas has abandoned further commitment to their Sabbatti project.

I think the facts speak for themselves; history of success is not debatable.

Wesley,

There are better choices than a Merkel in the same basic price zip code. Here is one for a little more money, but a much better rifle and you get Champlin to stand behind it:

http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=3&GunID=2627

The mere fact that Merkels and Sabattis are being discussed as peers should tell you something.

All mechanical things have problems. I still find my Sabatti great and never had a request from any animal to be shot with another makers rifle.

As long as they work and you are happy that is all that counts.

quote:

It also appears Cabelas has abandoned further commitment to their Sabbatti project.

Cabelas also used to sell Merkels and Kriegoffs. Also I think it was EAA that ground the muzzles on sabattis, not the factory. Personally I like Merkels. I just think it is interesting that some guns get a pass when there is a problem and others get roasted

I had Bailey Bradshaw build me a ghost ring aperture sight for my Merkel .500 NE. He installed it and shot it for accuracy.

When I picked it up...I asked him what he thought of the rifle. He said: "it is a very solid made accurate basic break-action double. Does not fit me but it is a capable tool."

Coming from an Craftsman/artist like Bailey...it gave me confidence in mine.

Mine is accurate and has given no trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:

quote:

It also appears Cabelas has abandoned further commitment to their Sabbatti project.

Cabelas also used to sell Merkels and Kriegoffs. Also I think it was EAA that ground the muzzles on sabattis, not the factory. Personally I like Merkels. I just think it is interesting that some guns get a pass when there is a problem and others get roasted

Do you REALLY believe Sabatti sent "hundreds" of their DR's to EAA and then with a pile of them stacked at EAA, EAA took them out of the box and one by one they butchered them???

Because I'm convinced that those ground muzzles came out of the box, NEW from the factory NOT EAA...

DM

I think folks here buy double rifles for several reasons. Some are collectors of fine ones, some buy them for ego satisfaction, some buy several because they just enjoy shooting them, and some buy them for just a tool to hunt with.

I bought my little Sabatti, 9.3 X 74R simply as a tool and to have some fun with. The fact I only invested a little less than $2,000 for this rifle has been an overwhelming success for the two reasons I bought it. I have no intent to ever buy a larger caliber double rifle as the need is just not there. I feel everyone has their own reasons for double rifles and think that's great.

Having a little fun on AR jabbing each other on the choices and reasons are part of the fun. I really enjoy the discussions here and thank all of you folks who have helped me learn a little about the World of Doubles.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

The true data is the number of Merkels sold with pleased customers vs. Sabbattis sold with pleased customers. Merkel has been selling these DR's for around 20 years with great success and few problems. Sabbattis hsve been on the market for around 5 years with constant issues with regulation. It also appears Cabelas has abandoned further commitment to their Sabbatti project.

I think the facts speak for themselves; history of success is not debatable.

What you mention are not "the facts." It is simply anecdotal evidence used to support an opinion and as such is extremely debatable. True facts would be an objective analysis of all the Merkels and Sabattis sold vs the type and number of defects. This would further be broken down into model number and caliber, and length of service would also be included. Until this kind of analysis is done, all we have is ancedotal evidence and opinion, which more often than not are wrong.

What this leaves us with is how a particular rifle performs as being the only significant measure. My Sabatti 450 NE is relible, shoots to the sights, and shoots 1-3" groups with factory ammo at 50 yds. It doesn't slap me in the face and it doesn't double. This makes it entirely adequate for African DG, though I will tweak it for better accuracy just like I would do with a double costing four times as much.

quote:

Do you REALLY believe Sabatti sent "hundreds" of their DR's to EAA and then with a pile of them stacked at EAA, EAA took them out of the box and one by one they butchered them???

Because I'm convinced that those ground muzzles came out of the box, NEW from the factory NOT EAA...

Gents:
An attorney bought a Sabatti and it was an absolute piece of shit with ground muzzles and the accuracy was so bad one could not hit a barn with it when shooting from the inside of the barn! Cabelas treated him like shit and so did Sabatti and would not address the problem. Until, that is, the mention of "law suit" came in and they jumped to solve the problem by allowing him to return the rifle. I evaluated the rifle and shot it, too, and wrote up an evaluation of my findings. In the company reply from Italy they said the ground muzzles were done by a new and inexperienced employee there and only to a "few" rifles. The grinding came from the factory.
I'm pleased many of you have Sabatti's that work well and were a bargain for the price paid. I'm sorry for the ones that got burned. Sabatti makes a low priced and cheap product but Cabelas is the dick for not standing by what they sold and then dropping the product after many complaints. I stopped being a fan of Cabelas after reading the percentage of their catalog items that are China-made shit.
Cal

quote:

Do you REALLY believe Sabatti sent "hundreds" of their DR's to EAA and then with a pile of them stacked at EAA, EAA took them out of the box and one by one they butchered them???

Do you realy believe there are "hundreds" of sabattis out there with ground muzzles? Mine is a newer one and it is ser # 690. That said, thanks Cal for the info on where the grinding took place.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:

quote:

Do you REALLY believe Sabatti sent "hundreds" of their DR's to EAA and then with a pile of them stacked at EAA, EAA took them out of the box and one by one they butchered them???

Do you realy believe there are "hundreds" of sabattis out there with ground muzzles? Mine is a newer one and it is ser # 690. That said, thanks Cal for the info on where the grinding took place.

Gentlemen I think everone agrees that the use of a dremmel tool to try to RE-REGULATE the Sabatti double rifles was a mistake. No real double rifle regulator would even think of butchering a double rifle that way, AGREED?

The question we should be asking is, why was this even tried? The answer is not in the wind so to speak, but is because SABATTI did not regulate the rifles properly in the first place. The dremmel was a cheap attempt to salvage the rifles that weren’t regulated properly in the first place. Of all the places to cut cost on a double rifle, the absolute worse place is with REGULATION. If that had been done right in the first place, we wouldn’t be having this conversation!

I think it is about time to put this fiasco to rest, because comparing Sabattis to other double rifle with a plastic grip cap or an occasional malfunction of any sort (most operator caused) that has nothing to do with regulation is comparing apples to oranges.

It seems to me that Sabatti has at least tried to repair their reputation by doing a decent job with regulation on the newer ones. That IMO is good news!

I personally wish these things had been a good buy from the start. If they had been I would own two or three of them today myself.

..................................................................hold your fire till I dig my fox hole!

The problem that I have is the way Sabatti's are criticized. It is a hasty generalization at best, possibly even a false dichotomy.

The argument goes something like this:

"I saw/had/heard of a Sabatti with ground muzzles, therefore ALL Sabattis are junk."

If we continue it that vein:

I personally shot a Krieghoff that slapped me in the face. I know of others who have had the same issue therefore ALL Krieghoffs are junk.

Or maybe:

Jorge knows of 12 Merkels that doubled, therefore ALL Merkels are junk.

NONE of those three statements are correct.

We all know there were some Sabattis that had muzzles ground. That was stupid and those guns need barrel shortening, recrowning, and re-regulating. Sabatti deserves to have it's pee pee whacked over the Dremel regulation.

But, and this is a BIG but, most Sabattis do not have ground muzzles. Most shoot just fine. They are a strong action made of modern steel that locks up tight, yet the rifle is not stiff when opening and closing. The Safari series is made with decent walnut............certainly not high end wood, but decent enough. There isn't any fancy engraving. The triggers may be a tad heavy.

They are a sturdy, strong, reliable, no frills double rifle with adequate regulation. Most of them one comes across will be fine. Some loons like me may have theirs re-regulated to take it from good regulation to outstanding regulation, but that is because I just can't leave well enough alone. Even if I do re-regulate I am still in for 1/2 to 1/3 what the next level DR costs.

You know, if it were a certain thing that a Krieghoffs or Merkels were always perfect and would always shoot 2" groups at 100 yds without crossing, then I might agree Sabatti is way off the mark. However, that just isn't the case. Most doubles that shoot 2-3" groups at 50 yds are considered good to go, and my Sabatti easily meets that standard with factory ammo no less.

Or perhaps if the Sabatti action was weak or unreliable, I might say Sabatti missed the mark. But that isn't the case either.

To be honest, even a full price Sabatti is inexpensive enough that if it needs re-regulation, you are still money ahead in regards to most other doubles.

I don't get why all the angst against Sabatti. Crud, there are even revered pre 64 M-70s that were junk as they came off the assembly line.

quote:

Do you realy believe there are "hundreds" of sabattis out there with ground muzzles?

Absolutely.

quote:

Jorge knows of 12 Merkels that doubled, .

NONE of those three statements are correct.

That statement IS correct.

That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the parts of the statments about all Merkels or all Krieghoffs being junk.

my old merkel 470 came with a factory mercury recoil reducer.

Thanks again guys for all the input. My statement about the safety was meant to infer that I personally did not like the safety on the Merkels.I personally have a Sabatti in .470 with ejectors that has not been ground and I am happy with it. So all that being said hopefully I will be able to list the Merkel here for sale when he decides he wants to sell it. I will shoot it in the coming weeks and will give a report on that when we list it.
Thanks
Wesley

I had a Merkel 470 that I purchased new thru a dealer here in Tucson. I seem to remember I paid $6000 for it. It came from Merkel's Alabama location I believe. It DID have a factory reducer in the stock. This was a piece of what appeared to be cold rolled steel that fit in the stockbolt hole of the buttstock. The rod was drilled in the rear end and a tab was fitted with a hole in it thru which a screw affixed it to the rod. The tab had a screw hole in the end sticking past the rod. This rod was placed in the bolt hole and the tab fit in a small inletted grove in the stock where it was attached to the stock with a wood screw. The first thing I did ,of course, was to replace the hardrubber buttplate with a Pachmeyr Decellerator. Shot it and familiarized myself with it's shooting habits. Took it to Africa for Elephant. My PH and a friend asked to shoot it which pleased me greatly and we did to everyones satisfaction. Cleaning it that night I discovered a 'bump'in the recoil pad. Removed the pad a discovered the 'recoil rod' had sheared the wood screw and was trying to come out of the stock thru the pad which is more or less hollow at that point. I merely removed the rod,replaced the pad and went on to kill an Elephant. Sold it later as I had satisfied my desire to use a double rifle in Africa on an Elephant. Sold it with the rifle but never reinstalled and I figure the hard rubber plate had kept it from any movement leading to shearing of screw. But the point is it was a factory rifle ,I was the first owner,It did have a recoil reducer in the buttstock.

quote:

Origenally posted by Zimbabwe;

It DID have a factory reducer in the stock. This was a piece of what appeared to be cold rolled steel that fit in the stockbolt hole of the buttstock.<<<<SNIP


Cleaning it that night I discovered a 'bump'in the recoil pad. Removed the pad a discovered the 'recoil rod' had sheared the wood screw and was trying to come out of the stock thru the pad which is more or less hollow at that point.<<<SNIP

But the point is it was a factory rifle ,I was the first owner,It did have a recoil reducer in the buttstock.<<<SNIP

Though extra weight any place in the rifle does reduce the recoil, that was not the purpose of the solid steel rod in the Merkel butt stock. The purpose was to make the rifle balance properly.

Some folks that are recoil shy, remove that rod, and replace it with a true recoil reducer like the Mercury recoil reducer. This maintains the weight balance, and reduces the recoil at the same time.

The bulge in the recoil pad was not caused by recoil because under recoil the heavy rod tries to move forward not back. IMO the rifle was dropped on it’s butt pad at some point causing the heavy rod to sheer the screw and move back against the decelerator pad.

How much did your ivory weigh from your elephant? I’ve always wanted to take a large tusks elephant bull with one of my doubles but it has always been out of reach for me financially so had to settle for Cape buffalo and hippos with my doubles.

......................................................................

I just know the rod was there and the bump only appeared after the hard rubber plate was exchanged. Have no idea what the parts list called it or even if there was a parts list. But that is the second Merkel I have had that absolutely everyone on this forum who made statements about that were not fact. The other was a small frame 8x57R that did NOT have user regulation. The tusks on my Elephant shot with the Merkel were 20.2Kg and 18.0Kg. Not big by any means. I had copper covers for the hollow root ends. The copper comes up about 6" and has 1/4" Sterling embossed trim around each end and down the seam. They rest in an oak rack similar to the ones samurai swords are sometimes displayed in and sit on the coffee table with a Zebra rug in front of it in my den. They and 2 zebra rugs and some warthog tusks are my total trophies of 8 safaris and a whole bunch of animals taken in Zimbabwe. I look at them many times a day and not once do I fail to vividly relive the shooting. I can even see the sight picture plain as day with the herd moving behind the mopane trees. Elephant do get the blood boiling some. No other animal in Africa effects me as they do.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I just know the rod was there and the bump only appeared after the hard rubber plate was exchanged. Have no idea what the parts list called it or even if there was a parts list. But that is the second Merkel I have had that absolutely everyone on this forum who made statements about that were not fact. The other was a small frame 8x57R that did NOT have user regulation. The tusks on my Elephant shot with the Merkel were 20.2Kg and 18.0Kg. Not big by any means. I had copper covers for the hollow root ends. The copper comes up about 6" and has 1/4" Sterling embossed trim around each end and down the seam. They rest in an oak rack similar to the ones samurai swords are sometimes displayed in and sit on the coffee table with a Zebra rug in front of it in my den. They and 2 zebra rugs and some warthog tusks are my total trophies of 8 safaris and a whole bunch of animals taken in Zimbabwe. I look at them many times a day and not once do I fail to vividly relive the shooting. I can even see the sight picture plain as day with the herd moving behind the mopane trees. Elephant do get the blood boiling some. No other animal in Africa effects me as they do.

..................................................................................

I too, have a very small collection of trophies because After retirement we down sized, and I simply do not have room for even one tenth of the trophies I have taken in 72 years of hunting since the age of six! That would take a football stadium and a million dollars in taxidermy,neither of which I have! Congratulations on you ivory, and I like the way you display it as well! I do have a very large set of hippo tusks that are not mounted in any way, and I've been thinking about that being the way I might display them as well.

Now that Steyr is in it's new home in Bessemer Al and is a Merkel and Anshutz importer - is there anything of interest in getting a Merkel through Steyr ?

Now that my Merkel's safety has been fixed I have no complaints except that the barrel length is 20". Too short.

I'd rather have it than a Sabatti. Would rather have a 24" barrel length, however.