quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If one has a double rifle and it works with a load, leave the damn thing alone, its designed to shoot a single load and most do, the others have probably been tinkered with...99% shoot woodleighs as it was designed like bullets of yesteryears doubles...

You can play with a bolt gun or any of todays guns from day one, not a double and its intended to kill large DG, thats it, all else is twaddle!

Can't say I agree.

I've only had one double rifle that wouldn't shoot to regulation at the design velocity with multiple different bullets, bullet weights, or powder loads. I've had to work up to each, but no problem getting the rifle to shoot properly.

The one that would only shoot 1 or rather 2 loads, is my Chapuis 9.3x74R but ONLY WITH THE SCOPE MOUNTED. Take it off and it shoots whatever you feed it.

My VC 500NE will shoot to regulation with Northforks (CPS and Solids), CEB (Safari Raptors and Solids), Barnes (TXS and Banded Solids). Following Michael458 and Sam Rose's guidance, I even dabbled with the 510 gr Northforks and got them to shoot to regulation.

This, I have found the larger the bore the better the rifle will digests different loads. Get under a 400 bore and things become more finicky IMO.

Interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If one has a double rifle and it works with a load, leave the damn thing alone, its designed to shoot a single load and most do, the others have probably been tinkered with...99% shoot woodleighs as it was designed like bullets of yesteryears doubles...

You can play with a bolt gun or any of todays guns from day one, not a double and its intended to kill large DG, thats it, all else is twaddle!

Can't say I agree.

I've only had one double rifle that wouldn't shoot to regulation at the design velocity with multiple different bullets, bullet weights, or powder loads. I've had to work up to each, but no problem getting the rifle to shoot properly.

The one that would only shoot 1 or rather 2 loads, is my Chapuis 9.3x74R but ONLY WITH THE SCOPE MOUNTED. Take it off and it shoots whatever you feed it.

My VC 500NE will shoot to regulation with Northforks (CPS and Solids), CEB (Safari Raptors and Solids), Barnes (TXS and Banded Solids). Following Michael458 and Sam Rose's guidance, I even dabbled with the 510 gr Northforks and got them to shoot to regulation.

This, I have found the larger the bore the better the rifle will digests different loads. Get under a 400 bore and things become more finicky IMO.

I agree Mac. That matches my experience exactly.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the old adage of a double rifle being suited for one load only originates from earlier times where there were less bullets / powders available for hand loaders to experiment with.

Regulation is viewed as black magic, voodoo and such when in reality it quite simple, if you have a wedge, a roll of soft wire, and a torch..Watch one do the process if you get a chance..I did one under the tutelage of Rick Stickley, a different sort of guy but a genius in the world of gunsmiths

IMO....the biggest question right now is how Merkel will be handling any warranty work. The new importer was very equivocal when I talked to them about service such that I will be sending my guns to Mathias at Krieghoff USA if work is needed...for now at least.

What’s happened to Merkel? I got one so curious. What type of service?

I have owned a Blaser S-2, and some over under doubles.

I didn't feel as though the Merkel fit as well as the S-2 and recoil was noticeably more.

A Blaser S-2 isn't a popular rifle, and there are some on the 2nd hand market. You might find a cheaper 500 NE or 500/416 Ne as they aren't as popular.

I like the way the Krieghoff Safari is built, and I feel as thought it is the best built of all the modern production guns. They make them in 500 and plenty of professional hunters own them.

Blasers and Krieghoffs have a decocker not a safety. To me this it the only way to roll.

I do not know anything about Merkel side by side guns mine was a 9,3x74R 200 series bockdoppenbuchs gun built in the 1980's.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
IMO....the biggest question right now is how Merkel will be handling any warranty work. The new importer was very equivocal when I talked to them about service such that I will be sending my guns to Mathias at Krieghoff USA if work is needed...for now at least.

Interesting. I saw on Merkel’s website the new importer.

The guy behind it is a doc in Mobile who was exposed to drillings while working in Germany as a US Army doc. He has been importing drillings from Germany in cooperation with a German gunsmith that seems to own half the company. The company has only been around for 6 or so years, quite a gamble on Merkel’s part IMO. Probably owes it to his partner.

I don’t know that he has a gunsmith in the states. Probably why he is being a bit coy, as my guess repairs are very likely to be done back in Germany.

I can only recall three Merkels coming through my shop in my time. All made well and TIGHT. One I got to restock, one a stock repair, and I can’t recall the third.

My one gripe on the bigger bore guns was their light weight relative to the caliber, their balance, and handling. IMO the action bodies were small for the .470ne and .500ne, which meant they tried increasing barrel weight to attempt addressing the overall weight. I’d much prefer a larger action and thinner barrels for handling purposes.

I bought a Merkel in .470 a long time ago before I knew anything about double rifles. It works well enough, although it's too tight, has never doubled, but only gets a little less than 2000 fps out of factory rounds, so I won't hunt in Africa with it.
Love hunting pigs in Texas with it.

9 times out of a 100, it a double doubles its caused by pulling the front trigger first and recoil bringing the rear trigger into play against the rear trigger...Ive witnessed this many times and discussed it with double rifle builders and created it on my doubles just to be sure.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I had one . A 470. I pulled the front trigger 4 times. It shot 8 times. I was done with it .

This. When I used to post here more often, I kept a running tab on "doubling Merkels" and at least count it was over thirteen.

As to the quality/[panache regarding British doubles, no doubt no one else comes close on panache, but find me a better, stronger action than a Verney (you won't).

Separate subject, but when does lever position (right or left of center line) become an indication of action wear?

.

I have 5 doubles and have never doubled one once !

A great friend in RSA has a .470 Merkel double - I sourced it for him. Never an issue.

.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I had one . A 470. I pulled the front trigger 4 times. It shot 8 times. I was done with it .

This. When I used to post here more often, I kept a running tab on "doubling Merkels" and at least count it was over thirteen.

As to the quality/[panache regarding British doubles, no doubt no one else comes close on panache, but find me a better, stronger action than a Verney (you won't).

Separate subject, but when does lever position (right or left of center line) become an indication of action wear?

My only doubling was my fault.

The Spanish guns are extremely good as well. Spanish steel has been highly regarded, as far back as history shows.

I know Jorge has my old Merkel in that list because we've discussed it previously. Mine did double, twice. But neither time was it the fault of the rifle.

The first time was when my RSA PH asked to shoot it. Thinking a PH would know his way around a DR, I said sure and handed him 2 rounds. He put 2 fingers inside the trigger guard and you can imagine what happened.

The second time was a friend asked to shoot it. I explained not to put a finger on each trigger and fire the front trigger first. It doubled. He told me he definitely strummed the rear trigger in recoil.

Anymore when someone asks to shoot my 500NE, unless I know they have experience with a big bore double, I only let them load one barrel until they have a few shots under their belt.

Have them shoot the rear trigger first.

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
Have them shoot the rear trigger first.

My LARM 500NE has a very light front trigger, to allow for better first shots. They assured me it would "likely" double if I fired the rear trigger first.

I have 8 DRs right now, 2 Merkels. I shoot rear trigger first out of habit. I have never had a double this way. I tried front trigger first a few years back and had a few doubles. My fault not the rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
Have them shoot the rear trigger first.

My LARM 500NE has a very light front trigger, to allow for better first shots. They assured me it would "likely" double if I fired the rear trigger first.

From The Factory the front trigger was 6lbs and the rear trigger was 9lbs.
I had JJ set both of my Triggers at 5lbs. I have never had an issue.

I doubled a 500 shooting off sticks.. My hands were wet with sweat from wiping my forehead so I did not have a decent grip...

I have a Merkel 160AE 470NE and its virtually undestructible and very accurate. I recommend Merkels without hesitation.
Cheers Juan

Never doubled my Merkel by the way nome of my Chapuis Aemy and Navy Manton or others ever doubled.

Always shoot the rear trigger first..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Always shoot the rear trigger first..

Nope, NOpe, NOPe, NOPE!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Always shoot the rear trigger first..

Nope, NOpe, NOPe, NOPE!!!!

Todd is spot on!

Could Todd or Don enlarge on this? Other than mention of some front triggers being lighter, I don't think their adamant positions have been explained.

I always shoot the front trigger first but have only ever had one double, an old Greener shotgun with an underweight rear trigger.

However, for those who find themselves strumming the rear trigger, I fail to understand why they should not pull that one first.

First, for me, it is a more natural flow front trigger to rear. Second, all of my shotguns are side by side with double triggers and fixed chokes. I do a lot of bird hunting behind my englesh setter. The front trigger fires the more open choke (skeet or IC) right barrel. The rear trigger fires the tighter choke (light modified or modified) left barrel. I have never had a problem with doubling (strumming the rear trigger).

Yes, Don, the choke tradition could play a part. I love double-trigger shotguns for the ability to instantly select a choke, without needing a selector and remembering to switch it back.

It has just occurred to me that strumming triggers is kind of counterintuitive, if we think of the origins of single triggers. As I noticed when watching slow-motion footage of my son shooting in a recent art movie, our finger usually comes off the trigger under recoil inertia but is then unconsciously tightened again. Westley Richards found this made guns with single triggers double, until they added provision requiring the trigger to be pulled a third time to fire the second barrel.

If anything, that inertia explains why some people bang the back of their finger against the front trigger on pulling the rear one.

I wonder if strumming happens when the shooter completely loses the front-trigger location and, when the finger tightens unconsciously, it does so on the rear trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Could Todd or Don enlarge on this? Other than mention of some front triggers being lighter, I don't think their adamant positions have been explained.

I always shoot the front trigger first but have only ever had one double, an old Greener shotgun with an underweight rear trigger.

However, for those who find themselves strumming the rear trigger, I fail to understand why they should not pull that one first.

Having the rifle come up when shouldered, with sights aligned with where your looking instinctively, is one of the main forte's of a double rifle. Like a well fitting shotgun.

Proper fit of the rifle is essential to this ability to shoot instinctively at close quarters. LOP is one of the main variables to a rifle's fit.

You measure LOP in a double rifle to the front trigger, not the back. The front is designed to be pulled first.

Perhaps those who like to pull the rear trigger first should have their rifles stocked long like shotguns to get around that, Todd.
It would not help balance in the bigger calibres, of course.

The space in front of the front trigger should be easiest to locate in a hurry but I think, when strumming is not an issue, slipping back to the rear one for the second shot is a more ergonomic progression.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Perhaps those who like to pull the rear trigger first should have their rifles stocked long like shotguns to get around that, Todd.
It would not help balance in the bigger calibres, of course.

The space in front of the front trigger should be easiest to locate in a hurry but I think, when strumming is not an issue, slipping back to the rear one for the second shot is a more ergonomic progression.

For me, when I throw the rifle up to my shoulder, with a proper LOP, my index finger naturally goes to the front trigger without searching. Sliding back to the second trigger after the shot is natural.

The other way around would be foreign to my muscle memory.

I think back over the books on Africana I've read. I recall numerous instances of the old Ivory Hunters, when looking to purchase a DR, describing inspecting the right barrel as that's the one most often used ... i.e. the front trigger.