quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
To me a double, aside from the "pucker factor" is primarily a weapon for Africa. Frankly if I try to justify it on hunting merit alone, I'd never get one. I think my scoped 416 can do anything better than any double, and i'd have no problem using it on elephant. So to be honest, a double is just something I've always wanted, plain and simple. jorge

That's all the reason you need Jorge! Get one, and be hoppy!

Mac you ain't no help! What caliber???? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
---
What caliber???? jorge

Having owned in the mid to larger bore-
9.3, 375, 450/400, 450, 458, 500, 577 ,
and having fired many others -
(though currently I am down to a 9.3x74 and a .500 BP)

My personal two favorite calibres are- 450/400 and 577 in English styled and proportioned rifles.

Carry the 450/400 and hunt just about anything with it; then, have someone else carry the 577 for those rare but troublesome events.

If I can only own one DR to hunt anywhere-
it would be a 470,
not because it is my favorite,
or for having any particular redeeming factor other than its ubiquity---

you find ammo almost everywhere.

With the production of new rifles and ammo by numerous manufacturers in the wide variety of chamberings,--
if I were to order a new rifle ,personally for me,
it would be a 450/400.

Thanks! great info from a personal perspective. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
To me a double, aside from the "pucker factor" is primarily a weapon for Africa. Frankly if I try to justify it on hunting merit alone, I'd never get one. I think my scoped 416 can do anything better than any double, and i'd have no problem using it on elephant. So to be honest, a double is just something I've always wanted, plain and simple. jorge

That's all the reason you need Jorge! Get one, and be happy!

Mac you ain't no help! What caliber???? jorge

Jorge, you know my choice would bea 450/400NE 3", but if you like the 500/416NE then get it chambered for that one! What I meant was there is no real need for a double rifle to hunt Africa which you have already proven, but you don't need any other reason than simply because you want one, and the caliber you choose is your business as well!

Jorge:
IMHO it is safe to say the 450/400 is on the light side for elephant. OK, I'll use it for buffalo etc. With the deals offered today for tuskless elephant a hunt for jumbo is often quite a bit more reasonable than buffalo. If you are smitten by Africa, elephant will be on your agenda sooner or later. Why get a rifle that is less than ideal when better options are there for the same money? I think you would be better served with a 450 3 & 1/4. It has more recoil but is extremely attractive now that Hornady is loading for it and a vast array of 458 bullets are available. I traded a bunch of guns recently for a 400 and 450 by Heym. I'm negotiating for an elephant hunt as we speak and the 450 is my gun of choice. I agree with an earlier post that said if you are a die hard elephant hunter use a 500 if you can handle it. I have had a 500 and found the recoil more than I care for.
My Heym 450 tips the scales at 10 pounds 2 ounces and points really well. I really am impressed with it! Mine has 24 inch barrels and I would probably recommend 26 inch with a splinter fore-end. My 400 has 26 inch barrels and just looks better to my eye. I talked to some knowledgeable dealers and was advised away from the 500/416 because of future down the road problems getting your money out of it. I think it is a great cartridge but the market is not there for it.

Thanks for all the replies gents. We'll see what I come up with. I have a 500 scoped out (at least I hope the offer is still good) but I have time to look for what I want. Just for the record, preferences:
450 3 1/4
450 #2
475#2
470 NE
500NE
450/400

I'll keep you all posted. jorge

jorge

I would recommend you get a 450 3 1/4, or a 470.

I prefer the 450 bore myself. You can shoot 350 Hornadays for practice, and the occasional pig.

I have been perfectly happy with the performance of my 450 No2.

I used to want a 577 or a 600, but after using the 450 No2 I have found that is all I need.

Jorge,

Except for elephant hunting, your 416 is at least the equal of a double rifle. The double rifle comes into its own when elephant hunting.

I am with LJS on this one. You haven't been elephant hunting yet, and you may well end up hooked as others here have. And with tuskless or an especially good deal on a meat or non-export bull, prices can be competative to not prohibitive compared to buff.

And the only real choices, as I see them, are the 450NE 3 1/4" or the 470. Not that a 500 isn't a great choice for elephants, just that its a complete comittment.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Jorge,

Except for elephant hunting, your 416 is at least the equal of a double rifle. The double rifle comes into its own when elephant hunting.

I am with LJS on this one. You haven't been elephant hunting yet, and you may well end up hooked as others here have. And with tuskless or an especially good deal on a meat or non-export bull, prices can be competative to not prohibitive compared to buff.

And the only real choices, as I see them, are the 450NE 3 1/4" or the 470. Not that a 500 isn't a great choice for elephants, just that its a complete comittment.

JPK

Can you explain complete commitment? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Jorge,

Except for elephant hunting, your 416 is at least the equal of a double rifle. The double rifle comes into its own when elephant hunting.

I am with LJS on this one. You haven't been elephant hunting yet, and you may well end up hooked as others here have. And with tuskless or an especially good deal on a meat or non-export bull, prices can be competative to not prohibitive compared to buff.

And the only real choices, as I see them, are the 450NE 3 1/4" or the 470. Not that a 500 isn't a great choice for elephants, just that its a complete comittment.

JPK

Can you explain complete commitment? jorge

I'm gonna say what I believe JPK means with his use of the phrase COMPLETE COMMITMENT.

That caliber was created from the start to be a BIG BULL ELEPHANT caliber; usable in

darn near every close and dangerous situation a BBE hunter might find himself in. Sure

PONDORO might have had a few occasions in his life, where had he NOT HAD the 577 or 600,

but instead the less powerful 500 he'd have been hurt or killed by a BBE. Maaayyybe. The

500 is mucho, mucho powerful and the recoil one takes during practice at paper target

sessions will prove that to anyone. Can many men take it? Yes, if they want themselves

to take it, most men can get used to that big shoulder hit. Sure one can use this caliber

on smaller beasts, but that is NOT why it came into being. So I think the COMPLETE COM-

MITMENT JPK refers to is that you're gonna hunt elephant, a good number of elephant, a

good number of bulls, big bulls and often enough it's gonna be CLOSE UP AND TRULY DANGER-

OUS. And since this is gonna be a BIG part of the hunting you're gonna do, you're gonna

practice with that rifle regularly, hundreds of rounds per year, and you're gonna take

that recoil all those times without the extra butt pad of adrenaline, which of course you

will have plenty of when you're actually in the thick of it with jumbo. I have never come

close to AFRICA, but that's my best shot at what JPK means. So JPK and others, am I more

or less on track?

Jack,

You are pretty much on track.

My double rifle is a 458wm, shooting 500 grainers at 2145fps. I barely note the recoil when a buff or ele or even a klipspringer is in my sights. Just enough recoil to know the rifle has fired. No real recovery time.

The adrenelin comes with having a real critter in your sights, and that reduces percieved recoil, but so does extensive pre hunt practice. And that practice makes the reduced felt recoil work for you, with proper second shots, proper rapid loading, the ability to, without conscious thought, very quickly mount the rifle and shoot, when an elephant wheels to you, staying in the rifle after the shot for a follow up (and not pulling away as is so typical,)...

Also, you will need to devote substantial time to finding the loads that make the rfile shoot to potential, and though this can be a one time affair, part of that pre hunt practice is getting to where the rifle's potential for accuracy isn't too far above your own off hand shooting at up to about 50yds. Some of the groups that pass here for good regulation really just don't cut it, and the same for off hand shooting.

It takes weeks of building up recoil tollerance to a point that shooting 20 or 30 rounds a session is no big deal. (And after laying off for most of a year between trips, its like starting all over again each time.) And, imo, you need to get to that point and beyond prior to every trip to be as effective as you can personally be. So that your rifle is a comfortable piece of you.

I've been elephant hunting with that preperation and without so much preperation, and I can tell you first hand that it makes a world of difference.

Now take the recoil of a 458, 450, 470 and what it takes to to truly be ready and magnify it by the additional recoil (and expense.)

I seriously doubt that anyone shoots a heavy double, or even a 450/400 regularly and enough that they are ready to go hunt elephants (well) at the drop of a hat. So prep time is in order. Prep time required grows with recoil.

I've shot a few pigs with my double, but there isn't a whole lot of game that warrants a heavy double around here... And while I believe that the 500 has its place at the top for elephant hunting, to realize the benefits requires a complete commitment to the rifle.

And a tough thing for all of us guys with an extra dose of teststerone, be honest with yourself and tell yourself, honestly and truthfully, how much commitment are you really willing to live with.

If I didn't truly love my rifle, I might have traded out for a 500. Might add a 500 to my battery yet, but I'll shoot another 25 or 50 or maybe more elephants before I hang up my boots, God willing. So far, that extra commitment has kept my thinking 500 rather than shooting 500.

So, if you don't know where your interest are heading - and you can't unless you've hunted an elephant yet, the 450-470 rifles are the perfect compromise.


JPK

I agree with JPK and Big Five Jack.

I have shot several 500 Nitro Double Rifles, and a few 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs Bolt Rifles as well. I do not find them comfortable to shoot. In fact I have shot a 500 Nitro and a 577 Nitro side by side on the same day.
The 577 was more comfortable to ME.

I really wanted a 577 or a 600 Double.
I told my first Ph that the next time I would have one or the other.

On that Safari I shot a couple of buff and 3 elephants. My PH started calling my 450 No2, the HAMMER OF THOR. He was impressed how HARD it hit, and most importantly HOW WELL I shot it. He told me not to change ANYTHING.

His theory was, IT is plenty enough, AND, the bullets are going in the RIGHT place.

He said "Do not change anything."

You can have TOO MUCH GUN.

I have also shot quite a bit of plains game with my 450 No2.

I have also shot a BUNCH of deer and wild pigs with it. I have killed dozens of skunks and armilillos with it. I have killed 2 squirrels, head shots, and 2 coyotes.

I fired over THREE THOUSAND rounds with my 450 No2 before I took it to Africa on my first Safari.

IF you cannot handle youR big bore Double Rifle like a 22LR, might better get some good Life Insurance for your Family before you go over.

You do not want a BIG BORE that you are afraid to shoot, or that you will not shoot a LOT.

For hunting, the 450/400 3" will do the job, it has ,in its rimless form (404 Jeffery), taken more elephant than any of us could hope to in a lifetime. The 404's thunder only faded after the advent of the 458 win.

In the glory days of Ivory trading, WDM Bell took a majority of his elephant with a 275 Rigby (7x57 mauser), of course he was a methodical hunter who picked his shots and had cahonies of steel. As such, the 450/400 would be more than enough and will better your chances of success by limiting the flenchies. I have seen a lot of folks on AR recommend shoulder artillery due to a past personal experience, but you will find, most often, they missed their shot and chose to blame it on too small of a gun.

If you were going to pop a lot of elephants, grab a 450 NE (either the original or #2). The 470 is great, but I prefer the bullet selection of the 450s a bit better. The extra oomph will be less of an issue and will give you more piece of mind on a frontal head shot.

The 500's are good, but you have to be properly conditioned to shoot them. Even a 458 win mag will catch you by surprise if you haven't shot one for a while, a 500 might loosen a filling or two. Also, keep in mind, when the excrement co-mingles with the proverbial spinning impeller, you will not be in the most proper of stances when mounting your rifle. You may be at an angle so odd, that firing the rifle will contort your body until you fall or stumble, pray your first shot was a good one. Also consider the ammo is outrageously expensive, and you will probably spend as much preparing for the trip as you will on round trip business class airfare. All that said, if you can do your part, and invest the time, you will flatten anything that currently walks the earth.

Personally, I will opt for a 600 when they finally open the Jurassic Hunting Preserve. Then you will see how good of a hunter man is, aiming at a tennis ball sized brain in the skull of a T-rex.

John

Fully agree with NE450, JPK, and Jack.

To be proficient with a rifle, you need to handle it, and shoot it, and handle it, and shoot it, and shoot it, and shoot it...

I live in Africa, have to spend time in the bush in hairy places (heavily poached areas, you never know which critter displeased by a badly placed AK47 round is waiting for someone to whom he can express his grief), and gave a lot of thinking to all the above before to spend money on a double.

I concluded that the 450/400 was something I could actually shoot for practice without having to keep an artificial smile just for the public, and is plenty enough for what I do if I put the bullet where it belongs.

Then, the rifle is about as heavy as I care to carry for hours on, day after day in the bush.

Also, the ammo and components are available, the caliber is a hotcake and is a sure resell if needed.

I don't care much if a pair of .800 barrels would look so much more cool... What works and makes sense cuts it.

So then does it all boil down to being able to justify any damn thing you decide?

I reckon so Will. To me buying a rifle, especially a double has to be a "whole rifle" concept, in that I have to LIKE it aesthetically, it has to be reliable and shoot! and I have to be able to shoot well enough to make the killing shot. I consider myself pretty recoil sensitive, but like I mentioned before I had a CZ in 458 Lott firing full power loads kick my ass, while a 470 Blaser from the bench was quite tolerable. The 500 offered by a fellow AR member is a very good deal, but if it kicks my ass it will be a waste. I have a little time to look so I guess I'll be patient. I'm sure there's a rifle out there with my name on it. jorge

In my opinion unless you plan to do a lot of multiple elephant hunts in the thick jesse after cow herds, I would go with a 450/400. They are a pussy cat to shoot and more than enough power for any buff and ok for an elephant or two with the usual PH back up. They are a lot more fun to shoot and carry than a 450 + double.

465H&H

465H&H

I am happy to hear you experienced
guys say that basically I "GET IT"!

I do not feel that a 450/400 is "light" for elephant. Or "light" for cape buff or lion.

Just curious, how many people on this thread have actually shot an elephant or a cape buff with a 450/400 double?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

While it is not aesthetically pleasing, I came to like mine very well.

Me too! Once you get used to the cocking mechanism on the Krieghoff (or the Blaser) it becomes second nature and it is indeed safer than a traditional safety.

The Blaser, and the Krieghoff systems are zebras of a very different stripes! K-gun "YES", Blaser "ABSOLUTELY NO!"

You load your Blaser it is automaticlly on "safe" (ACTUALLY UN-COCKED). That part is good, if you are only starting out on the hunt the rifle is safe to carry fully loaded.

However, you get ready for a conforntation, you slide the cocking lever forward to cock the rifle. That system is not good if you cock the rifle fire one or two shots, and don't get the job done. Say you fire one shot and break to reload that barrel, the rifle has un-cocked it's self automaticlly, because you opened it. That is still good if that one shot was all that was needed, but not so good if you need a quick second, and third shot after closeing, with little time to think much less fiddle with buttons.

You have fired one shot and re-charged that barrel, because you opened the rifle you must re-cock the rifle before you can shoot again. Now you fire both barrels and break to re-load the rifle, close it, and it must be re-cocked again, and every time you open the rifle for any reason you must re-cock the rifle again.

The Blaser has no facility that recocks the rifle on opening after fireing. This is not good in a close encounter of the desperate kind.

A double rifle that has an automatic safety, is bad enough, but one that not only automaticlly puts the rifle on SAFE, but actually un-cocks the rifle on opening rather than cocking it is not a system that is conducive to long life when hunting things tha try thier very best to kill you if you poke a hole in him that doesn't get the job done.

Any rifle of any type, not just a double rifle that not only places the rifle on "SAFE" if opened for any reason,and not only doesn't recock it's self when opened, but actually un-cocks the rifle,is no better than a bolt action the re-sets the safety every time the bolt is worked. This is not a system one would want for a serious DGR.

The K-gun system is OK because after making the rifle ready to fire, if the rifle is opened for any reason it not only does not un-cock the rifle, but if it has been fired it re-cocks it's self, and is ready to fire on closing. Nothing must be done in that sittuation but pull the triggers.

If you want it to be on "safe" you push the button forward slightly and release relieving the striker springs, and it is safe now to carry fully loaded, but the choices is your's not the rifle's! Any hidden hammer rifle that doesn't re-cock it's self on openong is a mauling waithing to happen.

Gentlemen Mr. Bush thinks that I am ragging on him personally, and that is not the case. I agree with him on the K-gun's system, and my comments are not aimed at Mr. Bush, but at that abortion from Blaser. It is not only ugly, which doesn't matter in a fight with a cape buffalo, or a lion that is determined to take revenge, but the auto de-cocking system does matter quite a lot.
My purpose in these posts are to let folks that are not aware of the difference between the Krieghoff, and the Blaser systems be made aware of ithat difference. The difference is the K-gun is a DGR, the Blaser is not regardless of chambering!


........................ ...............

Thanks for the excellent description of the two systems.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Just curious, how many people on this thread have actually shot an elephant or a cape buff with a 450/400 double?

Less than 25-yards of follow-up on these two.





It's not as much about what you hit them with as it is where you hit them.

I don't mean to pick on you guys making a living off the 450/400 but if it is only shot placement why bother using anything so big as a 450/400?

I shoot a 30-06 with 220 gr. Woodleigh solids. If it is only shit placement, or rather shot placement, as it always seems to defer to, why not just brain those buff with a 30-06? Or even less?

Just tell Buzz and his bow hunter it is just shot placement!

quote:

I don't mean to pick on you guys making a living off the 450/400 but if it is only shot placement why bother using anything so big as a 450/400?

I shoot a 30-06 with 220 gr. Woodleigh solids. If it is only shit placement, or rather shot placement, as it always seems to defer to, why not just brain those buff with a 30-06? Or even less?

Just tell Buzz and his bow hunter is just shot placement!

God bless you Will. Did someone with a 450/400 3 inch treat you rudely? I know you haven't shot one so, it couldn't be the rifle or recoil?
Did you pick up a piece of hot 450/400 3 inch at the range when you were a young lad?

I do admit you are providing me with a good laugh!

quote:

So then does it all boil down to being able to justify any damn thing you decide?

Since when does justification have anything to do with buying a firearm?

I'm just mad I didn't buy all those old 450/400's when they were $5K instead of twenty like they are now.

You and me both!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I don't mean to pick on you guys making a living off the 450/400 but if it is only shot placement why bother using anything so big as a 450/400?

I shoot a 30-06 with 220 gr. Woodleigh solids. If it is only shit placement, or rather shot placement, as it always seems to defer to, why not just brain those buff with a 30-06? Or even less?

Just tell Buzz and his bow hunter is just shot placement!

There were many hunters (and are many poachers) who have used 30 cal rifles with solids to knock down the jumbos. The key to success with the pop guns is to pick your shots wisely, wait until everything is perfect, take your time to aim, squeeze trigger, and wait for the big plop.

Things being what they are, its not legal in most countries to use less than a 375 H&H to hunt pachys. Even it were legal, one might wish to be prepared for an off-angle shot on a jumbo at a time where you may not have all the time in the world. But hey, you know that already....


John

There are rifles that can kill an elephant and then there are rifles that can stop one, even when the shot isn't perfect...

JPK

Probably more elephant have been killed by poachers with illicit 303 British rounds than anything else. Instead of arresting those guys they should be shot placement instructors!

Probably true Will but we'll never know how many elephants have been wounded and lost by those very same poachers either.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Probably true Will but we'll never know how many elephants have been wounded and lost by those very same poachers either.

Poachers using the 303 might suplant king crab fishing as the most dangerous occupation. I'm sure a few of them end up wet spots or with their training regimate of sprinting have went on and joined their native countries track team, might see some of them in the next olympics.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Probably true Will but we'll never know how many elephants have been wounded and lost by those very same poachers either.

Absolutely! Simply because something CAN be done doesn't make it a prudent idea to do it!

That being said the laws in every jurisdiction I'm aware of the 375 H&H is legal for the taking of all the big five, and in Zimbabwe the 9.3 is also legal. The 303 is not! There is a reason for those game department ballistic laws, and they have nothing to do with a client hunter's opinion, but results over many years of hunting, and culling of every one of those big five. That being the case, I would say the hangman's rope is not appropriate for the hanging of the .400 caliber cartridges used on the side-by-side double rifles or bolt rifles for dangerous game in Africa.

I find that in every one of these so-called debates the only real vocal opposing group are those who of the opinion that there is nothing in Africa other than elephant! Admittedly the 450/400NE 3", and 3 1/4" are not on the top rung of the ladder for STOPING elephant, but neither are any others if the CNS is not hit, and turning the ele is far different from STOPPING HIM! I simply think the close to the brain shot knock-out is a little over-rated with anything smaller that a 500NE. On the turnung issue a lion, or buffalo is much less likely than an elephant to be TURNED by a less than CNS shot when charging a shooter, especially after being wounded.

In the final analysis there in nothing that says you are in more danger with a 450/400NE double rifle, or 404 CRF bolt rifle, that you can shoot well, for hunting DGRs in Africa. NOW! I agree if you intend hunting a lot of elephant, or hunting elephant exclusively, then why stop at the .450 cal, when you can go dirrectly to the .500 cal or larger if it makes anyone feel safer!

Mac,

Shoot a few more elephants and I believe you will end up believing more like the more experienced elephant hunters on here.

465H&H

Samaki Salmon shot more elephant than anyone (+4000) and had great respect for the .400. He liked the .416 rigby to shoot rogues.

Obviously you have a much less chance to stop or turn a charging buffalo or elephant with a .400, but more than a .375 wich was used by many elephant hunters.

Ya just can't keep trying to rewrite history. "Professional elephant hunters" just didn't use little peashooters. Comparing what some of these guys did in the distant past just doesn't have any bearing on present day elephant hunting. When they screwed up there wasn't any trophy fee. And there were a bunch of dead ones that are forgotten.

Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges should be required reading!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ddouble:
Samaki Salmon shot more elephant than anyone (+4000) and had great respect for the .400. He liked the .416 rigby to shoot rogues.

Obviously you have a much less chance to stop or turn a charging buffalo or elephant with a .400, but more than a .375 wich was used by many elephant hunters.

The 416 Rigby is a FAR CRY from the 450/400. 1,000 lbs/ft more energy or about 25% more. That equals much more authority for turning or dropping eles with a less than perfect brain shot.

As far a numbers, Richard Harland and Ron Thomson both killed near 5,000 each, using primarily the 458wm, which at the velocity they were shooting, closly matches the 450NE.

Not too many professional elephant hunters or PH's used or use the 375H&H.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Mac,

Shoot a few more elephants and I believe you will end up believing more like the more experienced elephant hunters on here.

465H&H

Ain't that the truth!

Between just me, 465H&H and Will, I will bet that 20 elephants have been dropped at the shot, and a good number of those knocked out, with less than perfect brian shots. Done with cartridges making ~5,000+ lbs/ft energy.

JPK

JPK, I know there are lots of disputes over these numbers, however the difference in knowledge after shooting 4900 or 4500 eles is probably pointeless to our issue... important thing is that they were all lucky!

Respecfully disagree on the .375. A WHOLE LOT (thousands and thousands) of eles were shot with .375 by many of the last raid of ivory hunters. Today PHs who are not professional hunters per se, but guides, use different calibers. However, guys such as Harry Manners, Jorge Alves Lima and many others shot more eles with a .375 (without backup) than most of today´s PHs will see shot in their lifetimes. Several hunted or knew Taylor, hence his positive claims on the cartridge.

Totaly agree the .400 has significant less energy than the .416 (with a solid an overpenetrator one could say), but anyday I would rather have a .400 double in my hands than a .375 to face a buffalo or an ele.

I have hunted ele and buffalos using from recurve bows to the .470 nitro and interestingly the most dramatic buffalo charge I stoped was with a borrowed scoped 30-06 saving my friend´s life. Of course I feel safer with the .470...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Mac,

Shoot a few more elephants and I believe you will end up believing more like the more experienced elephant hunters on here.

465H&H

You may very well be right! But it will never happen because I'm already in my 73rd year, and it is a little late to start a large number of elephant in my list, especially when starting with zero killed, and only two shots fired into a friend's bull.

However, I don't think most here have a very large number of ele under their belts, even with ten times what most here have. Most here haven't pulled the trigger on even one! That fact, however, doesn't mean they don't have a brain, or experience with the cartridge you are discussing here, and what it is capable of. Experience with elephant doesn't make you an expert on the 450/400NE 3" cartridge, any more than having experience with the 450/400NE 3" makes you an expert on elephants, so the mop flops both ways.

How about the guy who shot an ele in the head three times with a 600NE, and never knocked him off his feet? With that as the only reference, one would think you would need something larger to achieve the "KNOCK OUT" everybody talks about. But very few, if any, have experienced the knock out on a personal basis, with any cartridge. So if history, and what others have done is what we both have to go by, then I don't know anyone posting here who can't read history or watch others kill elephants, and draw some conclusions (OPINION) from it! Elephant hunter or not, if you haven't used this cartridge on elephant what you are expressing is OPINION, nothing more.

The largest number I've seen posted on AR for any client hunter is 18 and how many different cartridges did YOU use to kill your's, and were any of them shot with a 450/400NE? I'd bet my next retirement check, that not many who hunt ele, and who are client hunters have even fired a 450/400NE 3" rifle, much less shot an elephant with one, so they are going by hear-say, not experience, which equals opinion.

Do you think 18 elephants is a good basis for making a blank statement that a particular cartridge is not a killer of elephant when the claimant has never used that particular cartridge on any of the elephants he has taken? Because he had a failure with something larger, like the 600NE guy, doesn’t mean a 450/400NE 3” would have failed worse. It might have done better because it penetrates better than the 600NE.

It seems all who take the position that the 450/400NE 3" is a rabbit rifle,or a woman's rifle, want to disregard the writings of those who shot a lot more than 18 elephants with .400s, like Taylor, or Samaki Salmon who 416 Rigby with is ballicticly the same cartridge. I’d say in the last ten years more elephant have been taken with the .400s, both .410, and 416 than any other caliber by client hunters.

Before eveyone gets into the FPE thing let me say here FPE is not a good indicator of killing power. The FPE of any cartridge can be boosted by shooting lighter bullest faster. I don't know anyone with any sense that would use a lighter bullet to get a higher FPE and think it made it a better killer of things like elephant. Straight line deep penetration is far more important that FPE on a brain shot on elephant.

I say the person who has used 450/400NE 3” cartridge on multiple large and small animals, (excluding elephant) and has over 60 years of firearms experience in both loading and building rifles for DG, and has watched a lot more than 18 elephants killed with every cartridge designed for hunting large animals, is on about an even scale, OPINION wise, with the guy who has shot 18 elephants, but hasn't used the 450/400NE 3" rifle to take anything.

Of course you are correct! I need to shoot 18 elephants with the 450/400NE 3" double rifle to catch up!

My final statement on this thread is if you don't want to use a 450/400NE 3" on elephant, then don't, but your opinion of the 450/400NE 3" cartridge is, like me, just your opinion without any experience with it's use on elephant!

.............WHAT CHA THANK, HOSS?

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My final statement on this thread is if you don't want to use a 450/400NE 3" on elephant, then don't, but your opinion of the 450/400NE 3" cartridge is, like me, just your opinion without any experience with it's use on elephant!

Now you're getting personal!

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Originally posted by Will:

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My final statement on this thread is if you don't want to use a 450/400NE 3" on elephant, then don't, but your opinion of the 450/400NE 3" cartridge is, like me, just your opinion without any experience with it's use on elephant!

Now you're getting personal!

.............NAWH, I would never get personal, you know that!

REALLY, there is nothing personal in my posts at all. It is just that it is human nature to lean toward what you like, and tend to disregard what you don't like as inferior!

I find that poeple who are real elephant hunters, tend to think anything that is not top notch for elephant hunting is not worth their time or consideration for any purpose. It may be news to some, but Africa, and the rest of the world is just chock full of animals other than elephant, and MOST safari hunters will go to Africa maybe three or four times, and most will take a Cape Buffalo, and never fire a shot at an elephant in their whole lives. The 450-400NE will kill elephant quite well enough, and from cape buffalo down the list, world wide, it is a very well rounded, useful chambering in a double rifle. It simply is not the jackrabbit rifle some would have you believe!

PS: I have a 470NE that weighs 11.6 pounds, and shoots very well,This 470NE double has taken two big bull elephants, and three cape Buffalo, and a couple Black bear, and a few wild boar. It is in absolutely perfect condition, that I will trade for a 450/400NE 3" double that is in like shape, and weighs one pound less , in a heartbeat!
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