Hello All,

I recently bought a Sabatti 500 NE ejector from Cabelas, I looked the gun over pretty well before purchasing, I looked at the muzzles for dings and scrapes, but since it was a new gun it appeared fine, at a glance.

After getting the gun home and shooting it with the exact Factory regulation load, and not having any level of regulation, similar to the target. ( 9" apart at 45 yds, factory target was 0.9" at 50M ) I suspected something was wrong.

Upon cleaning I observed the bores were not true at the muzzle.
See pictures attached in this thread :

http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/3181009641

I have since returned the gun and was refunded the money.

I polled several owners, as evidenced in the above thread, of the respondents, approximately
50% reported anomilies with the muzzles, to what extent I cannot tell, as I was not provided full details and pictures. Some reported no issues.

When I returned the gun, the Manager at the Gun Library offered a replacement 500, I stipulated that if the muzzles were clean I would take it.
They were not, this was a new gun opened for the first time by the Library manager.
They were altered to the center rib, the exact oposite from the gun pictured above and returned.

We looked at a 470 and 45-70 in the Library and including the 2 x 500's 4 out of 4 had been touched. 100%

I feel that this needs to be disclosed to all purchasers prior to purchasing a Sabatti, I never in my wildest imagination would have expected this type of workmanship or "Regulation" technique, whichever it may be.

I do not fault the Cabelas Gun Library staff, and this manger was surprised and obviously made it right by refunding me.

I just feel obligated to share this with all potential buyers and buyers who were unaware of the situation.

I understand the entire price point argument, however I feel that this is not an area to skimp or employ creative techniques, or if you do, disclose the information up front.

Thanks
Nitro450exp

Good "public service" post. Buyer beware. Still deciding s to what to do. jorge

Jorge,

Not Buyers BEWARE, More Buyers BE AWARE, If you know this going in you can decide.

Nitro

Wonder if they will return them to who they got them from or just re-box them and sell to an unsuspecting buyer, as other unnamed stores have a habit of doing.

Still away so haven't had the time to check mine but even if the muzzle were crowned to get it to regulate, as long as it is accurate and consistent, I won't sell or return it.

As Peterdk, a double builder himself said, it is one of the methods used to regulate doubles. Someone else wrote that J.J. Perodeau of Champlins uses this technique himself when DR owners don't want to spend the money it costs to re-regulate ny resoldering. If its good enough for Peter and JJ, its acceptable to me on my Sabatti.

Jorge, seems like you've worked up a few different loads that shoot great. I myself would be satisfied with that. If it didn't shoot with handloads or I wasn't a handloader and it didn't shoot with factory stuff, I do exactly as Nitro450exp and return it.

Yeah Doc, 120 rounds and counting and with the guarantee I got from Cabelas, I'll keep on shooting it until my hunt in 2013. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
even if the muzzle were crowned to get it to regulate, as long as it is accurate and consistent, I won't sell or return it.

Way to go IMO you guys are taking this "issue" way too far.

Well regulated double in the field is all that counts and I bet that Zambezi lady staring you down wouldn't mind your crowns being bit oval - I know that would be the last thing on my mind out there in the Valley...for me Sabatti like Jorge's is a keeper and ready to do some serious hunting...ask any PH if he would object taking it for a ride

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
As Peterdk, a double builder himself said, it is one of the methods used to regulate doubles. Someone else wrote that J.J. Perodeau of Champlins uses this technique himself when DR owners don't want to spend the money it costs to re-regulate ny resoldering. If its good enough for Peter and JJ, its acceptable to me on my Sabatti.

Jorge, seems like you've worked up a few different loads that shoot great. I myself would be satisfied with that. If it didn't shoot with handloads or I wasn't a handloader and it didn't shoot with factory stuff, I do exactly as Nitro450exp and return it.

doc

as i said, i know some do it like that, i am to dumb to learn new tricks so i do it with resoldering the wegde and try again and again until i get the result i want out of the gun.

i do agree that jorge should just use his rifle with a big smile on his face as that gun is a SHOOTING machine(or he is, the groups dont lie)

best

peter

The thing that would worry me is ," it is hard enough to keep round crowns round, how do you maintain crowns that don't start off round". You get wear from fireing, and cleaning. If the crown of a single barrel rife wears poorly it is easy to repair not so if you have to re-regulate instead of just clean up. Whole different level of skill required.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Still away so haven't had the time to check mine but even if the muzzle were crowned to get it to regulate, as long as it is accurate and consistent, I won't sell or return it.

As Peterdk, a double builder himself said, it is one of the methods used to regulate doubles. Someone else wrote that J.J. Perodeau of Champlins uses this technique himself when DR owners don't want to spend the money it costs to re-regulate ny resoldering. If its good enough for Peter and JJ, its acceptable to me on my Sabatti.

Jorge, seems like you've worked up a few different loads that shoot great. I myself would be satisfied with that. If it didn't shoot with handloads or I wasn't a handloader and it didn't shoot with factory stuff, I do exactly as Nitro450exp and return it.

I figured this topic would be a Sabatti witch hunt for sure, with at least a hanging or death by fire.

But thankfully sensible heads seem to be prevailing.

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
The thing that would worry me is ," it is hard enough to keep round crowns round, how do you maintain crowns that don't start off round". You get wear from fireing, and cleaning. If the crown of a single barrel rife wears poorly it is easy to repair not so if you have to re-regulate instead of just clean up. Whole different level of skill required.

JD

JD,
I can't say I've ever had a rifle or pistol with a worn crown. My dad's 1963 Martin in 35 Remington has countless thousands of rounds as does his 1966 Remington 30-06. We always use a bore guide for pistols and rifles that must be cleaned from the muzzle all others from the breech. Both still amazingly accurate. To be honest, perhaps there is such wear not discernable to the naked eye (or at least mine) but if so, no apparent effect on accuracy.
I agree that if a re-crowning were necessary on those crown-regulated Sabattis, they would likely need re-regulation, but I wonder if the same might not be true when re-crowning a double with more "traditional" regulation.
Just random thoughts.

This!

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
The thing that would worry me is ," it is hard enough to keep round crowns round, how do you maintain crowns that don't start off round". You get wear from fireing, and cleaning. If the crown of a single barrel rife wears poorly it is easy to repair not so if you have to re-regulate instead of just clean up. Whole different level of skill required.

JD

You end up in a "Cost VS Price" financial modeling pretty quickly with this consideration.



Cheers
Tinker

Guy's

The other consideration, If am to believe the regulation target, is that this method is a hell of a lot more velocity sensitive than the traditional method, this would explain why the regulation target was good ( 0.9" at 50M )but when I shot it in 20 deg weather with 1/2 the factory box of ammo I got one result (6" apart at 67 yds) and 2 weeks later I shot the other 1/2 of the box, in 50 degree weather, and got another result ( 9" at 45 yds ).

What would the next box have yeilded ?

My K gun shoots all the factory ammo well and my handloads in one hole, but if I loose my ammo I know all brands of factory ammo are good for orange accuracy, not so with this particular Sabatti.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
as i said, i know some do it like that, i am to dumb to learn new tricks so i do it with resoldering the wegde and try again and again until i get the result i want out of the gun.

best

peter

Peter,

That's the way I like them to be done. Please remain too dumb to learn new tricks.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
The thing that would worry me is ," it is hard enough to keep round crowns round, how do you maintain crowns that don't start off round". You get wear from fireing, and cleaning. If the crown of a single barrel rife wears poorly it is easy to repair not so if you have to re-regulate instead of just clean up. Whole different level of skill required.

JD

JD,
I can't say I've ever had a rifle or pistol with a worn crown. My dad's 1963 Martin in 35 Remington has countless thousands of rounds as does his 1966 Remington 30-06. We always use a bore guide for pistols and rifles that must be cleaned from the muzzle all others from the breech. Both still amazingly accurate. To be honest, perhaps there is such wear not discernable to the naked eye (or at least mine) but if so, no apparent effect on accuracy.
I agree that if a re-crowning were necessary on those crown-regulated Sabattis, they would likely need re-regulation, but I wonder if the same might not be true when re-crowning a double with more "traditional" regulation.
Just random thoughts.

Fireing does cause some wear,but if it starts of round it wears even. I am not sure what happens when it does not start round,but it can't be good. Most of the damage cause to the crowns were inproper cleaning. Lots of wear and tear on the front end on duty firearms, mostly revolvers, and duck guns that were in and out of a soft case often, especialy double barrel shot guns, they would wear on the front end real bad with poor quailty soft cases. I saw lotts of damage due to storeing long guns in soft case that had been taken to the marsh, once salt gets in , you can't get it out of a soft case. It gets in from putting a once wet firearm in the case even if the case was not take to the marsh.

When we would blue the first thing I would do is bead blast to remove the blueing, then polish to a high luster, I would then clean up the crown if inspection showed a need for it.

We often heard from repeat customers that they shot better after blueing, a fresh grown will do that even on a shot gun.

YOU WANT THE CROWNT TO BE BURR FREE , PIT FREE, EVEN , AND NO DEEPER THAN NECCESSARY. The gasses escapeing the base of the bullet as it exits the bore need to apply even forces around the base of the bullet as explained to me buy my mentor.


Look at the front end of you rifle collection with a jeweler's head set , you may not like what you see.


JD

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Peter,

That's the way I like them to be done. Please remain too dumb to learn new tricks.

Andy

andy

this is a given, i have it from good sourses that it will never change, both current wife and the ex-wife agree's on this, this is the only thing they agree on so it must be true

peter

dpcd

The owners I polled, 50% reported no issues, I also had pictures sent to me by one owner, and the muzzles were pristine.
So Sabatti does have the know how and can do it the right way, I would have paid 1 K more to have a gun that was done traditionally.

However the gun I got did not shoot factory ammo at all and that was more of the issue than the regulation method.

If my 500 shot factory ammo 1/2 as good as "Jorge's" 450, I would have kept it, I also still feel that they should have made this regulation method known to potential buyers.

Nitro

Just got back from shooting my Sabatti 45-70. The groups I was shooting were nothing to be happy about and I wasn't for a couple of days.

On Saturday my Hornady factory ftx loads were at a 6" spread and I was pissed! Went out today and got the same problems with it. Luckily I took my dad who is better than I and he got 2" groups at 50 yds.

I was shooting off a single stick (couldn't find my safari sticks) and my dad told me that my muzzle was raising with the pull of the trigger. My dad missed the box with his first shot because of the bad trigger pull. I was shooting about 8" high, but my dads group was dead center.

I feel a little better knowing that the problems with my Sabatti seem to be me. I'm happy with the gun and it shoot lead loads like a house-a-fire but I need to get some more practice with the heavy front trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
Just got back from shooting my Sabatti 45-70. The groups I was shooting were nothing to be happy about and I wasn't for a couple of days.

On Saturday my Hornady factory ftx loads were at a 6" spread and I was pissed! Went out today and got the same problems with it. Luckily I took my dad who is better than I and he got 2" groups at 50 yds.

I was shooting off a single stick (couldn't find my safari sticks) and my dad told me that my muzzle was raising with the pull of the trigger. My dad missed the box with his first shot because of the bad trigger pull. I was shooting about 8" high, but my dads group was dead center.

I feel a little better knowing that the problems with my Sabatti seem to be me. I'm happy with the gun and it shoot lead loads like a house-a-fire but I need to get some more practice with the heavy front trigger.

If we meet I will buy you a beer or three for being honest about your results. I have learned and am still learning that accurately shooting a double is far different than a single barrel rifle. In fact, I'd say it takes the same discipline (though far different techniques) as shooting a double-action revolver accurately. Lots of things have be done precisely and consistently to get either to shoot to POA but practice gets you there.

CCMDoc

I am not the best shot in the world, but I shot my 470 and had a 1.5" group at 45 and then shot the Sabatti and got 9".

The first time I shot it, it was about 6.5" at 35 and a friend of mine shot it, he is a better shot than me anyday, he put the R barrel in the same hole as me and the L within an 1" of my shot, but still a 6" group at 35.

I am not blaming the gun exclusively, but it apears Sabatti's don't like my DR shooting technique.

Anyhow a gun I cannot shoot does me no good.

Nitro

I wasn't referring to you at all and in another post said if i were you and didnt handload I would have done exactly as you did.

Just commenting that it takes a big man to admit that it was his own skills and not the gun that was the problem. Simply appreciating his honesty not casting stones.

CCMDoc

I was just saying that I shoot OK, but that rifle and I could not get along.

Nitro