Hello,

Sabatti safari model big bore owners, please PM me, I would like to ask you to look at your guns and let me know something.

I have a Safari Deluxe Ejector .500 NE.

Nitro450exp

PM sent.

Nitro450express,

Please, don't hold out on us now.......

Nganga

I do not go off half cocked when I have fact and something to share I will.

Nitro

PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Nitro450express,

Please, don't hold out on us now.......

Be patient Mr Nganga, all will be revealed in good time........I hope.

Personally I can't wait.

PM sent

pm sent

I have a Sabatti in 450/400....what's the deal?

I have a Sabatti in 450/500....what's the deal?

PM sent.

I have a Sabatti .450 PM sent

PM sent

And all this time I thought the purpose of a forum was to freely share information?

Tendrams

Patience

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Tendrams

Patience

Nitro

Before we die of old age please.....

Hello All,

Well the Sabatti haters will have a field day with this, but I want to make it known to the DR community, If you intend to buy a Sabatti please study the muzzles very closely before buying, I did not. I was not expecting this sort of an anomily.

Well these pictures are of my new Sabatti as purchased from Cabelas.









I will take this issue up with Cabelas and see what happens.

Nitro

Curious, of all the people who responded to your request for information, did anyone else have similar issues?

Similar issue on the left barrel of mine but it's still holding about 1"@ 50 with factory and my handloads after 120 rounds and counting. I asked for and received an open ended written guarantee from head of Cabelas Gun Libraey that if anything went wrong with the rifle as a result of manufacturer's defect, they would cover it 100%. I suppose I could press for a refund but as long as it keeps shooting, we'll see what happens. jorge

Both of the Sabattis I got (and returned) had this problem.

The first one was TERRIBLE!

The second one was not so bad, but the problem was still there.

That sucks! I did not plan on purchasing one, but I was hopeful that they were going to be a good low cost option for a double.

Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

I will never by that. Merkel can sell 147e shotguns for 1/3 the cost of their doubles they can make doubles for the same or a tiny amount more. There is no reason a double should cost the same as a small CAR. As long as double owners will continue to allow themselves to be gouged they will be.

The regulation of a double can be a major exense.

Shooting, reheating/resoldering, shooting reheating/resoldering, etc, doing it till you get it right can be a long and $$$$$ in labor and ammo.

Altering the crown of the barrel is much more cost effective.

Yes!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

There was a discussion here the other day concerning the adjustment of a rifle's regulation by way of screwing with the crowns.
This is one way to do it, and there are other ways to tweak the crowns for the same effect.
The dude who did that is using gas to steer the bullets.

(and do look closely, those are file marks in the bores at the muzzles...)



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I will never by that. Merkel can sell 147e shotguns for 1/3 the cost of their doubles they can make doubles for the same or a tiny amount more. There is no reason a double should cost the same as a small CAR. As long as double owners will continue to allow themselves to be gouged they will be.

Making double barrel shotguns that will pattern is NOTHING like properly regulating a double rifle. The Sabatti doubles, with the problems we are now seeing, is exactly what you get when a double is made, in your words, "for the same or a a tiny amount more".

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

+1

What you are seeing is most likely the result of the "Final Tuning" that they note on their regulation targets. Sorry guys, but he is correct, you don't get a $15K or $20K double for $5K.

If the double shoots to POA with consistency using an acceptable/appropriate load, what's the problem? I haven't looked at the crowns on my 450/400 but if they looked like that I wouldn't return it because it does put the holes where I intend them to be. Same with the 450NE I sold to Hartley. Never examined the crowns but it too was quite accurate.

this is one way to regulate the barrels, it is a quick way and to a degree it can work.

please understand that it can make your rifle really bullet sensivitive, so if it shoots and shoots well, stock up on the bullets it likes.

you might get lucky and it will digest everything as well, such is the nature of the beast

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

I will never by that. Merkel can sell 147e shotguns for 1/3 the cost of their doubles they can make doubles for the same or a tiny amount more. There is no reason a double should cost the same as a small CAR. As long as double owners will continue to allow themselves to be gouged they will be.

geoff you are completly right, actually we can make these guns for free, and i would love to do that for you, now what i need from you is to pay my rent and put food on the table for me and my family.

it is okay not knowing enough about the process of double rifle making, but there is no reason to try and spread that lack of knowlegde to others, who might belive that you actually know anything about something.

the striking up of he barrels and the handregulation is the major time consumer.

sadly in this day and age time = money

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
this is one way to regulate the barrels, it is a quick way and to a degree it can work.

I've spoken about it with a very known Ferlach gunsmith and he explained how it works.

Regulation with working on the crowns can be changed up to app. 2" on 50m. Modifying one side of the crown will shift the bullet toward modificated side. In praxis - if we look at nitro450exp crowns, one can tell that before modifications, the rifle was crossing with right barrel also shooting bit low.

Nevertheless the mentioned smith also told me that working the crowns isn't a standard procedure at all when building a new rifle in Ferlach but usualy applies when some customers bring their doubles to be re-regulated and are faced with costs of resoldering the barrels.

P.S. Don't try this at home!

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
P.S. Don't try this at home!

please please please dont try this at home

peter

Hello,

Here is the root of all evil.
The regulation target shows ~ 0.8" spread at 50M with Hornady Factory DGX.
2 weekends ago I shot the same factory ammo.
I had L barrel shooting left R barrel shooting R , a clover leaf shaped L group of 3 and 1" R group of 3, 8" APART, so if it was crossing it is now shooting apart.

Can I handload and get it to shoot, probably.
Should I need to ?
Should it shoot reaonably close to the factory target, Absolutely.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, what you are seeing is a method to adjust regulation with out resoldering the barrels.

That is one reason they sell for $5000.00, and not $20,000.00.

I will never by that. Merkel can sell 147e shotguns for 1/3 the cost of their doubles they can make doubles for the same or a tiny amount more. There is no reason a double should cost the same as a small CAR. As long as double owners will continue to allow themselves to be gouged they will be.

geoff you are completly right, actually we can make these guns for free, and i would love to do that for you, now what i need from you is to pay my rent and put food on the table for me and my family.

it is okay not knowing enough about the process of double rifle making, but there is no reason to try and spread that lack of knowlegde to others, who might belive that you actually know anything about something.

the striking up of he barrels and the handregulation is the major time consumer.

sadly in this day and age time = money

best

peter

........................+ 1

Not only is time money, but skill is expensive! A shotgun can be regulated in a jig with no wedges at all, the space between the filled with nothing but solder at the muzzles! All that is needed with a shotgun is a pair of generally overlapping 30 inch patterns at 30 yards! I don't think a double rifle so regulated with the bullets from each barrel hitting someplace in a 30 inch pattern, would be of much use. Any halfwit can regulate a shotgun!

On top of that there is also a reason a big bore double rifle commands a higher price than the same grade in a small bore double.

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Hello,

Here is the root of all evil.
The regulation target shows ~ 0.8" spread at 50M with Hornady Factory DGX.
2 weekends ago I shot the same factory ammo.
I had L barrel shooting left R barrel shooting R , a clover leaf shaped L group of 3 and 1" R group of 3, 8" APART, so if it was crossing it is now shooting apart.

Can I handload and get it to shoot, probably.
Should I need to ?
Should it shoot reaonably close to the factory target, Absolutely.

Nitro

Hey Nitro,

Send that dog back to Cabelas!

If the store you got it from don't work with you, go higher up the totem-pole. - (PM me if you need detailed info)- I have dealt with the man in charge of all Cabelas Gun Libraries, so he can get the underlings moving.

Send that dog back and go pick one out in person, so you can check the muzzles before you buy.


Or, you could take the refund money, add a little to it and get one of Peter's DRs...


Not trying to be a jerk, just my humble opinion.

Champlin's price for re-regulation is around 700 bucks plus two boxes of ammo. I would have GLADLY paid the extra grand instead of the "regulation by Guido with a dremel" but like I've stated ad nauseaum now, I didn't expect much for 5K, it was purely a "fix" and oh boy did it hook me! I was measured for a VC at DSC. Anyhow, I share this link with you from my results this morning with Woodleighs. You be the judge:
Woodleigh Target

120 rounds and counting... jorge

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Hello,

Here is the root of all evil.
The regulation target shows ~ 0.8" spread at 50M with Hornady Factory DGX.
2 weekends ago I shot the same factory ammo.
I had L barrel shooting left R barrel shooting R , a clover leaf shaped L group of 3 and 1" R group of 3, 8" APART, so if it was crossing it is now shooting apart.

Can I handload and get it to shoot, probably.
Should I need to ?
Should it shoot reaonably close to the factory target, Absolutely.

Nitro

Just a simple observation:
This forum has endless pages of the most experienced DR shooters recounting their reloading efforts and ultimate pet loads for their double rifles all of which cost many multiples of the Sabatti price. Doing these gymnastics seemed to be the price of admission to the DR world . These same folk would say " the regulation load was X but I had to go up (or down) Y grains to get it to group. Reloading for doubles seems to be a given for ultra expensive doubles, why should it be different for least expensive versions? BTW, it wasn't long ago the same was true for bolt guns if you wanted MOA or better accuracy.
I agree-if it doesn't shoot, return it get a refund and save for something that better suits your needs. That's what I would do if not satisfied.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Just a simple observation:
This forum has endless pages of the most experienced DR shooters recounting their reloading efforts and ultimate pet loads for their double rifles all of which cost many multiples of the Sabatti price. Doing these gymnastics seemed to be the price of admission to the DR world . These same folk would say " the regulation load was X but I had to go up (or down) Y grains to get it to group. Reloading for doubles seems to be a given for ultra expensive doubles, why should it be different for least expensive versions?

Doc,most upper scale doubles will shoot acceptably with the factory ammo they were regulated with, but by the time you get the ammo it is certainly loaded with a different lot number of the same powder. This is the case with your handloads as well, and once a "PERFECT" load is worked up for your rifle, it is a smart idea to buy a large supply of the same lot Number of the powder for future loads.

The double rifle is sometimes a little finicky and it takes only a tiny change in the powder or another bullet of the same weight but different jacket thickness, or shape to make the regulation a little off. This doesn't mean the rifle can't be hunted with a load that is a little off, especially for close in dangerous game. It simply affects the long-range accuracy more than point blank accuracy. In fact most double rifle shooters who load for their rifles and think they have a perfect load do not if they tried it on targets at longer ranges. It doesn't matter to them in most cases because they don't use their doubles at longer range anyway. It doesn't take target accuracy to hit the vitals of a cap buffalo at under 100 yds on the first shot on a buff that is not moving, and the back-up shots will be on a running animal, and are simply a "HIT HIM ANYWHERE" type of shooting.

Hand loading is a must to get the best from any rifle, not just double rifles. However with big bore double rifles it is critical, to make the rifle regulate perfectly, and to cut the enormous cost of factory ammo that isn't as good anyway. If you are loading for several double rifles, the cost is a major consideration to me at least, and I would bet to most here!

When I get a double rifle that I have no components for, I buy 120 pieces of new brass, and use 20 of them to find the sweet spot with, loading, and reloading those 20 pieces to find it. Once found, I buy a large amount of the same lot number powder, and load up the other 100 rounds, and put them away for actual hunting, and load up the used 20 rounds of fired cases for pig shooting, and practice. With this exercise I always have ammo that I know will shoot, and at a cost of that is far lower than the gang press, power measure charged and loaded ammo from most factories!

You would not believe the doubles I've bought for bargain prices because the owner couldn't make them shoot! The rifle Nitro450 Express has was sold with a couple of egg shaped barrels at the muzzles at least, and will never shoot well till the barrels are cut back, and re-crowned, not something you do with a moto-tool!

Howdy Mac; there are very few absolutes in life, look at this picture then read my post and link above. I must have a "double Guardian Angel"

MacD37,
I agree with everything you just wrote. In fact I think you posted the same message as I, just much more eloquently.