Hey Guy's - Have quite a dilemma. I made a gun trade with a very reputable dealer. It was a multiple gun trade for a double rifle. The double rifle was described in the add as test fired only.

Well, when I went to pick up the gun today, It has a bunch of issues. 1) There is a chip and crack out of/going through the tang. 2) The barrels look as though they are separating. 3) The bores are dark. 4) There are handling marks all over the gun and scratches all over the metal.

I called the dealer and he was very apologetic and took responsibility for it and said he would make it right. We agreed I would send the rifle back and use the same value for another of his guns.

Here's the problem: The only guns he has that I am interested in are a couple K more than what we agreed to. I don't really want to spend anymore money, so I am a little stuck! I also don't really want the guns back that I traded (I got good value for them).

So what would you do?

I don't think you have any choice. Pony up the extra for the other gun you want or take your guns back. You really did not get "good" value for them as you now know based on the trade you received.

If the rifle was not as described, the dealer is in default of your verbal contract (I assume you didn't get a written purchase order). So, the only thing to do, if you do not like his new terms, is to reverse the whole deal and walk away with your trades, down payment, etc. Make everyone "whole" again, in legal speak. If you agree to his new terms, well, it seems that involves more equity from your end. But, you said you don't want to spend any more $ and you do not want your trades back. You said it; you are stuck. What would I do? Unless I really liked his guns, I would cancel the deal and start over.

I would cancel the entire deal and get my money and trade in's back.

Not sure how you can consider the dealer "very reputable" when he described the rifle as being test fired only and it exhibited the defects you mentioned. Time to walk away and find a different dealer.

Yeah, you guy's are probably right, I should just get mine back and call it a day.

I've done several deals with him and have never had a problem. As I said, he told me he would make it right - Not sure how he can do that If unwind it. I'll have wasted $150 by the time I get it shipped back.

Frustrating.

If the description is mis-represented as you've said I'd ask for the total shipping to be refunded.

I would get my guns back and any money you gave him. He didn't represent the gun as it was. I wouldn't buy anything from him at this point. You'll just get deeper and deeper.
" Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceave"

I would let him know I was unhappy and out-of-pocket, and try to let him make good with a substantial discount on something he has, or I'd get my guns back and send him an itemized bill.

He is not reputable but a son of a bitch. If you are within a 3-day inspection, reverse the deal. If he won't do that, let AR know his name and we will do what has been done in the past. Witness the gunsmith in Maine who made a poor set of barrels and the PH from SA who refused to give a deposit refund on a terminally ill hunter with cancer. Both had their reps dragged through the mud and lost countless business.
There is no gray area between test fired only and the description you gave us. Reverse the deal or give him hell. And, of course, we all need to know his side of the story.
Good luck.
Cal

Yeah Cal - I'm going to talk to him on Thursday. I think I'll just reverse the deal and call it a day. He said he would make it right so sending guns back should be a no-brainer.

He basically said the reason this gun was described this way is because of the sheer volume of guns he moves. I don't know, it took me less than 30 seconds to find the barrels separating and the chip/crack in the tang.

If "High End" guns were my business and the internet being what it is, I wouldn't risk my reputation on one gun deal. Like I said, I am confident he will do the right thing.

If you all want to see pic's, just PM me your email address - Maybe you all can tell me if I'm overreacting.

JDA

I know several high-end dealers and I have never known any of them that didn’t look closely at any high-end gun that came into their shop. They want to know what the condition is when they receive it as they spent their money on it. So his story doesn’t ring true to me.
Bill

I'm just going to unwind the thing and chalk it up as a lesson learned.

The test for him will be when he re-lists the thing. If it isn't accurately described, you'll all hear about it and him...

I already have my eye on another one… We'll see if I can't make a deal in the next couple of weeks…

JDA:
Please do PM me or email me some pics. I'm curious. I will be traveling to the lower 48 Christmas day but will be on email again the day after. No doubt this guy knows rifles and he's a damed liar if he says he didn't know. Post his name here for all of us to see so all of us know who not to do business with.
Cheers and good luck on the reversal.
Cal

Cal - Email sent

Jim:
Post the pics here--or just one--the muzzle. You don't have to let the name out, just show the folks here what you see. The chip in the stock behind the tang shows a crack running back into the checkering. As to the muzzles, no doubt they are separating and need or re-soldered and re-regulated. Not a cheap repair and done only by one who knows double rifles--not the average small town gunsmith who installs muzzle brakes and 'scope mounts.
I am very disappointed in the man who sold it to you. These flaws should be visible to anyone within 2-3 minutes of inspection.
Send her back and don't look back.
Cheers,
Cal

I sent pics to both you and Biebs - If either of you can post them, I'm fine with it. I don't have one of those fancy photo bucket accounts.

;-)

Gents:
Here are two of Jim's photos. Can any of you believe this rifle was sold as "test fired only"?
It is not my business to divulge the seller but to do this makes him a skunk. And, he is known to all of us.
Cal

Thanks Cal - Ouch - What do you think it would take to split the barrels like that? The gun is a 45-70; maybe heavy loads, or something? Just for the record, a 45-70 is not a 458wm…

AND… I also have to say that Cal and Biebs have been very helpful. You guy's here are awesome!

Geez...

Holy smokes. Send it back!!

Jim:
Poor construction on a cheap double. All the firing of a quality double will not do this. Stock problems, yes at times. But the muzzles are poor construction from day one. For 6500$, I'd suggest kicking in a bit more and buying a Merkel or a Verney-Caron or a Krieghoff. The more I see doubles in the 5K range problems such as this are becoming more and more common. There IS a reason Cabelas is dropping Sabatti.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. Yes, I am awesome. Beibs is, well, Biebs

JDA-CO,

You really don't need to know causation for the problems that I see in those photos.

Test fired only? No, I wouldn't accept it as the muzzles tell me the rifle is damaged. There are probably other problems/damage to be discovered as well.

The chip at the tang can be from an ill fitting stock, loose bolts, punk wood. To fix that issue will cost a wad of money and possibly new wood. Seeing the crack extending into the checkering tells me it has probably compromised the strength of the wrist.

This is not a test fired only rifle in my opinion and I bet very few would disagree.

I would guess that this was either poorly constructed and or over pressured by reloads.
There are better rifles to be had and this isn't the only fish in the sea for that price.

Matt

You need to get your money back and you need to walk, better yet RUN from this guy!

This is fraud.

Here is the seller's description. Decide for yourself.

Description:
23 1/2" BARREL WITH A 1 LEAF 1/4 RIB SIGHT DOUBLE TRIGGER EXTRACTOR BEAVERTAIL FOREARM PISTOL GRIP NEW CONDITION TEST FIRED ONLY 8LBS 1 OZ X 14 7/8 LOP

Note the "NEW CONDITION TEST IFRED ONLY" part. This chump is well known to all of us.
Cal

All I'm asking is, is he in the North half or
south half of our fifty states. I'll ask nothing
else. Thank you.

I'll play devil's advocate. The dealer said it was a mistake because of his high sales volume. It seems as if everyone has taken that to mean he made a mistake in examining the rifle. But I find his explanation plausible if he meant that he made an error in the written description. With many guns to describe he can be doing a lot of cutting, pasting, and editing of text. Errors in a description can result.

The proof will be in how the seller makes good on the return/refund. We should reserve judgement till then.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Jim:
Poor construction on a cheap double. All the firing of a quality double will not do this. Stock problems, yes at times. But the muzzles are poor construction from day one. For 6500$, I'd suggest kicking in a bit more and buying a Merkel or a Verney-Caron or a Krieghoff. The more I see doubles in the 5K range problems such as this are becoming more and more common. There IS a reason Cabelas is dropping Sabatti.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. Yes, I am awesome. Beibs is, well, Biebs

Cal - Lesson learned. I have a Merk 140 and love the gun. I had heard very good things about these doubles and felt confident I was getting a good deal.

I think you're right -> A little more saving will give me piece of mind!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I'll play devil's advocate. The dealer said it was a mistake because of his high sales volume. It seems as if everyone has taken that to mean he made a mistake in examining the rifle. But I find his explanation plausible if he meant that he made an error in the written description. With many guns to describe he can be doing a lot of cutting, pasting, and editing of text. Errors in a description can result.

The proof will be in how the seller makes good on the return/refund. We should reserve judgement till then.

Grenadier: I totally agree - That's why I'm not posting his name until this thing resolves.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
PS. Yes, I am awesome. Beibs is, well, Biebs

That's funny...

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
All I'm asking is, is he in the North half or
south half of our fifty states. I'll ask nothing
else. Thank you.

He might actually be on the Mason Dixson line...

I would say that you should back out completely and when all is said and done you should be out $0. The ad may indeed be a mistake due to high volume but you shouldn't have to pay for that. I would wager to say that if he had posted the price as $650 instead of $6500 by mistake he would not sell the rifle for $650. He shouldn't expect you to have to incur any costs for a rifle that is nowhere near what it was advertised to be.

You should not be out one cent for postage or the return, etc., This was outright fraud. Sorry gents I don't agree with the error in description due to being busy. Everything else was correct, including the price.
In 24 hours I will be in balmy Massachusetts.
Cheers,
Cal

If the seller is willing to make it right, do it. And don't ever do another single pennies worth of business with him. Kind of like another amateur "gun smith"/ reloading expert/"highly experienced" big game hunter/booking agent who likes to sell his wares on this site. It doesn't really matter if he is incompetent, ignorant, a compulsive liar, or is just hoping to take advantage of your good nature. This somebody who you should not do business with as his word, for whatever reason, is not good.

As they say a man has one chance to make a good first impression. This dude didn't cut the mustard.

Being the curious sort that I am I did a quick Google search of the following portion of the ad," FIRED ONLY 8LBS 1 OZ X 14 7/8 LOP "

It lead directly to ads for this rifle.

And isn't it AMAZING how the photos in the ad on Guns America and Guns International for this rifle so skillfully avoid showing the damage to the tang or showing any part of the muzzles?

You simply can not say that was a mistake. FRAUD!!

Interesting how the dealer/seller knows of the problems and still the add(s) says test fired only. The more I am in this business I fell as if most used gun dealers originate from the same gene pool. One son of a bitch here in Alaska sells guns on consignment and tells the owner they are making the rounds at lower 48 gun shows to avoid paying the money owed. This can go on for a year. One case involved a prominent surgeon whose shotgun was seen at another dealer's table a year after it had sold. Our AR doctor friend here had his .500-450 for sale. It sold to a gent from Australia in September and for 8 months was told it was in the lower 48. In June, just by chance, I was in Darwin and met the new owner. He told me the story and I emailed Brett with the truth and he got this money.
And then the story of the Maine gunsmith who did the barrels for Eric L. These folks are just dog shit.
Cal

My quick look at those muzzles says they have been reworked since they left the factory.
Note the two different finishes on the face of those barrels?
Also note two distinctly different alloys of solder.
Off-cuff guess is that whoever got in there used a solder incompatible with the orig solder, then corrupted the alloy/integrity while overheating the joint.
They buffed the face to a high sheen, but didn't completely stone off the factory finish/texture as seen at top of sight ramp.

Quick guess from first impression...

Can we see the standing breeches?

Is this rifle from Steve Barnett?

The idea of someone representing they are still selling your property to enjoy the use of said proceeds from the prior sale of a firearm is disgusting. They are depriving you of your monies, potential interest, and enjoyment of your money.

That being said, it would be difficult based on word alone to prove theft. If someone had witnessed a gun that had been sold and the owner was told it is still being marketed, I would think one or two credible witnesses could put an end to that behavior.

I would be extremely mad and disappointed. Particularly when you would confront the selling agent and they would say,"It just sold yesterday."

Cal, I am assuming I know this fellow and he has a shop downtown.


Matt

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Can we see the standing breeches?

Is this rifle from Steve Barnett?

A.Tink… I've packaged up the gun for shipment back tomorrow. Those are the only pics I have. I would say the separation goes at least 10 inches from the muzzle. I think Cal nailed it, poor build quality is the most likely culprit.

quote:

Cal, I am assuming I know this fellow and he has a shop downtown.

Matt:
You are correct, sir. My favorite story is I brought him at Winchester deluxe model 1876 express rifle. He would not sell it for my price as he stated it was refinished. We argued about it as the rifle was original. I stated the fella i bought it from guaranteed it original. He refused. Then I told him the fella he bought it from guaranteed it original. Again, he refused. then I said, "But, he bought it from you!" And the back pedaling began. The stories are endless. He delayed payment to me on a 20-577, Holland 12-bore two barrel set, the Winchester, and a few others. Interesting he does not have an FFL for the hundreds of firearms he sells. Including modern guns.
Cheers,
Cal