The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Why so costly?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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 If you are refering to the wedge between the barrels at the muzzle, as a "KEY", I don't think I'd remove it if you want the rifle to still be regulated! This is soldered in by the regulator, and is a tapered wedge use in the regulating of your rifle at the maker's plant.  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Hello all: Thanks for the discussion..as one poster mentioned I was trying to "sucker" you in... let me assure you I wasn't. It was & is an honest question. After all the arguments, I still am an unbeliever that it takes so long to build a double rifle...and that they cannot be built less expensive & still be a good, reliable working double. I have owned many prized double shotguns of various makes...bought all of them years ago & seen them multiply in value...(I know, I know!) A double rifle is not the same..but mechanism is very much so...and I understand fully the argument that a fine double handles very quickly, and points better, etc. Those are advantages I respect...I don't question the value of a fine double rifle as far as its purpose & design. I question why in this modern age, the building process can't be modern enough to produce a less costly double rifle. I still question it, and I tend to think that the makers are accustomed to making the rifles only one way, and think they aren't taking shortcuts...so the rifles will Have to be costly. I still think there must ba a way to surmount this. Even if there is some hand fitting, etc. involved. I've worked on lots of double shotguns of fine makers..and see & understand how the sidelocks are made...still not a labor of Hercules...modern methods can make the parts. Well, that's my point of view...as has been said : "You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how ridiculous it may be"...but I remain very wary of the marketing of these fine rifles... A quality double (without adornment or embellishment)...just a finely made double with good but not exhibition wood, accurate should be able to produced more reasonably that what current costs are. Perhaps, I should get permission to tour a factory making these fine doubles, and then I could input cost savings methods. But why should the makers make them less expensive, when they have a captive, and I say "captive" market? Best Regards & Thanks to all for an interesting discussion, opinions on all sides! | |||
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well i say start up your own double rifle factory and get busy spitting them out. the market is there. DRSS | |||
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BL, In this age of wonderous CNC automation it still take a person, a skill person, to fit it all together. This takes time. Talent takes time. If it could be done cheaply then Butch Searcy would have tons of competitors. He doesn't. Since you live fairly close Butch's operation, you should go over and see what it takes. Perhaps we are guilty of wanting the Mona Lisa for the price of the oil and canvas? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Rusty, I think what the original poster is suggesting is that there should be some room below a Searcy grade double. Clearly, Searcy has a bit more quality in details to his rifles than say, Ruger does with their rifles. Remington/Baikal may have figured this out, but perhaps they fell too far down the market price-point. Time will tell. Frankly, I do NOT think there is a market for inexpensive mass produced doubles in the range between the Rem/Baikal virtual double and the Searcy/Merkel/Chaipus double. Why? Because the mass market of US hunters don't think much of doubles per se. They aren't as accurate, not as easily scoped, nor hold as many bullets as Ruger 77 or a Rem 700 or whatever. Searcy would, in my opinion, be nuts to make them cheaper when the market will bear the price he puts on his guns, and demands the corresponding quality, however superficial it may be. For sure, he could make guns with plain jane black walnut, no engraving and hot dip blued. So far as I can tell, he doesn't - because it doesn't match is market - which drives BMWs, not Impalas. Doubles as rifles just don't have an American cache' like they do among the Africa crowd, and frankly, the Africa crowd is both small in number and has money to burn, which means low volume, high dollar to anyone with business sense. Searcy has figured out how to light a match under them. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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Bisonland,I believe you did start this to cause a donnibrook, but you may be ligett, but I doubt it. In any case the poster above is not only the owner, and shooter of a fine Hollis double rifle 450/400NE 3", but is the owner of a very well appointed machine shop, with all the bells & whistles, and I can assure, if all it took to build a well made double rifle was machinery, Rusty would be carrying a rifle , he built himself,Not one that cost as much as his Hollis I know nobody here is going to change your mind, and that is fine, but, as someone above suggested, If you know how to build a quality double at a cheap price, then I, also, suggest you start! I will be the first one to buy one of them if you can do it!  IMO, $10K is bargain basement price for a new well made double rifle,in working trim. The guys who usually cry about the price of a double are usually the ones that see no problem paying $25K for a plastic bass boat, or $45K for a tin-can FORD truck, when both will be in the junk it ten years. That $10K working double will still be working for your great grand kids! I have a Westley Richards double that is 114 yrs old, and it will still opperate as new. I assure you the tollerances are a lot tighter, than what is required for a brand new low pressure shotgun. Hell a water pipe will hold a shotgun shell, and work fine!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Perhaps you can look at the supply/demand issues? I'm just guessing but if H&H as an example, or any other builder of high grade double rifles could figure a way to build them faster...considering what they fetch, don't you think they would? Good luck in your quest, let us know if you find any other windmills to tilt at along the way.   If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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I think the magic word is 'high grade double' there doesn't seem to be a 'medium' or 'low' grade double on the market today. As the O/U doesn't seem to be a 'double' there really is no argument. I doubt anyone that ran a cost analysis of the market would find it cost effective to tool up and introduce such a gun. 'I' have no doubt it could be done but the market would not be there to support the effort. Let's face it profit is what makes the world go round. Why does a Cadillac cost more than a Chevrolet. More luxuries. Basically they are both the same in fact there was one Caddy that actually WAS a Chevy and if I remember it didn't sell. People buy prestige and Double rifles were used by Kings, Lords and Raj's never the common man. It's still an ego trip. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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conifer Leave the "projection" between the bbls alone. European doubles many times have the "key" projecting from between the bbls. British guns usually grind the "key" flush with the bbls. I am guessing your French double is a Chapuis. If so It is one of the best hunting rifles on Planet Earth. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Now don't get me wrong, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I would be on a plane and get fitted up for a double rifle, in a nice light caliber that I could shoot all the time-------- but--- it is stated on this forum that Butch Searcy has orders for 60 double rifles. I assume that there are forty hours in one week, taking into account working fifty weeks in one year, that's 2000 working hours a year.If a double takes 8oo hours to build, that's two and a half doubles built in one year. It will take 24 years to build 60 double rifles. Have I done the maths correctly? Malcolm | |||
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I don't think anyone said a Searcy takes 800 hours. A Holland Royal, yes. A Searcy, no.You're assuming that Searcy has no employees??? ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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speaking for myself....ego has nothing whatsoever to do with it for me. DRSS | |||
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I bought my first double rife, a Cogswell & Harrison 450/400 55 years ago because of the mystic and romantic ideas I associated with Africa from books I had read in books by Osa Johnson and others. My second was a german O/U in some 9mm caliber that I never shot or determined what it was chambered for. I trade for it because I thought it looked great. I was in gunsmith school at the time. I have owned other doubles in the ensuing years always with the hopes of going to Africa and having the gun that epitomized African hunting. When I finally got to Africa for the first time 10 years ago for the first of 8 Safaris I was carrying a Brno 375 H&H that had belonged to Jon Speed. So much for the romance of the 'proper' gun for Africa. I took Kudu, Leopard,Impala, warthog,Giraffe on that first trip and was hooked. I had a Valmet 9.3x74R at the time but did not take it till several trips later. After losing an Elephant with a poorly placed frontal brain shot from my 375 I resolved to get a proper rifle. I bought a new Merkel 470NE. At that time I owned a Chapuis 9.3x 74R and an Otto Geyger 8x60RS which I deemed not 'proper' AFRICAN calibers. I proceeded to take an Ele with the 470 on my nexttrip and felt satisfied I had done it in the proper African fashion. Have not taken it to Africa since. The 3rd of my Eles was taken with a custom CZ550 in 416Rigby and I felt just as elated as I did with the 470NE. As I said I have been to Zim 8 times for quite a few days of hunting, probably over 180days total time there. Not much in comparison to others on this forum I know. In all that time I have 'SEEN' 2 other double rifles in use in Zimbabwe, another Merkel carried by another hunter on my last trip and a 577 Searcy carried by a PH I know. I only know personally of 2 other PH's that had doubles. Before there is a hue and cry I know there are more but these are the only ones 'I' know of personally. 'I' don't 'NEED' a double to feel confident in hunting dangerous game and have never been backed up by a PH who had one. All three of my Elephants were taken under 25 yards and the first and second was backed up by a PH with a 458 the third with a 500 Jeffery. I don't shoot SxS doubles very well either rifles or shotguns and all my shotguns are O/U's. If I ever buy another double rifle it will be a 9.3 O/U probably. I think most Double Rifles are bought for romantic visions of Africa or because they are attarcive guns built by craftsmen of supreme skill but not because they are magic or necessary to successfully, satisfactorily and safely hunt DG in Africa. I have also built rifles for the last 50 years not as a professional (although school trained) but as a hobbiest and have handled and shot 100's if not 1000's of bigbores in that time. As a result of this exposure I certaily believe Double Rifles could be built cheaper. Absolutely not 'BEST' grade but standard grade guns. I could not do it but 'I' can't build a best grade bolt gun either, neither can I do brain surgery or build an atom bomb but I know there are people who can. I never built rifles commercially because I realized early on that to demand the top price you had to have the top skill. This does not mean I don't ( or didn't) build quality guns. I would not back away from anyone as far as reliabilty and accurracy go . Decent looking yes, best grade, absolutely not. It is still my contention that double rifles are overpriced because they are built by skilled workers in small quantities because the market is not there for large scale manufacture and the commensurate investment required. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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I see why you got into double rifles in the first place, and that is the reason most buy their first one. But you must admit, that is the reason everyone buys the particular rifle they buy first, a romantic notion, wrought from a magazine article, or a story they read in some book ! But what about the guy who has bought many double rifles, and has used them for their intended purpose, HUNTING! To me, they are sinply the best tool for the job when things get tight, not romance!
All those roses, and dreamy reasons that made you want to hunt far off lands, and exotic animals, has nothing to do with the price of a working grade double rifle! In your last sentence, you explain why they cost so much. That is, as you say, because they must be built by very skilled craftsmen,and the market is small, while no matter what is made if it doesn't make enough profit to sustain the maker's business, with the added in transport, duty fees, tax, and still make a profit for the retailer, then it is simply not manufactured! Flowers have nothing to do with why a double rifle is the best tool for a close in encounter with a dangerous animal bent on distruction! Can you hunt these animals, without a double rifle? Absolutely! That fact still doesn't deminish the reliability and superiority of a good working grade double rifle, in the same sittuation, and nither has to do with the retail price paid for it. That has to do with the skill required to build that very relaible rifle! A very relaible bolt rifle, like a Darcey Echols, will set you back $8K-$10K, in a plastic stock, so what is the difference? The difference is, there are lots of smiths who can build a very reliable bolt rifle, but damn few who can do the same for a double rifle! A working double rifle is just as reliable as a best grade double rifle, but that cannot be said of an off the shelf bolt rifle , when compared to a best bolt rifle! You only bought your first double rifle 7 yrs in 1951 before I bought my first one in 1958! The difference is I was schooled from the age of six yrs, about the machanical reasons why a double was the proper tool for hunting dangerous game up close, by a man who let me hold his well used H&H field grade double rifle at that young age! This man had hunted the fields of Africa, and India extencively in the 1920s,and 30s, with that big bore double. Gentlemen, use what you want, and if you can build a decent double rifle for under $5K, I say do it, and I'm standing in line to pay for mine! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I guess that anything which could be made to the same quality standard for less is overpriced. Is there anyone willing to offer a $20K double for $5K? Please speak up! | |||
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I apologize for my statement. I should have said and meant to say in my last paragraph that double rifles are so HIGHLY priced.I do not mean to imply that they are OVERPRICED for the skill that went into them. I also do not believe that factory bolt guns are of so poor quality and fit that they are not reliable out of the box for service. As far as reliability I would imagine MOST GOOD smiths can and do build a reliable bolt rifle though not to the finish of the best builders. As far as Double guns I have yet to see the extra parts a rifle has over a shotgun and the fit and finish of these parts are the same for reliability in either case. One earlier comment was made about the fact that competition shotguns were maintained to a higher level than other guns and this was the reason for their reliability, but most good grade Double rifles had detachable locks and came with extra strikers inplying there was expected failure. You will never have a reasonably priced Double rifle simply because there is not an adequate market to interest anyone in making the necessary expenditure,not because it can NOT be done. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Many if not most good grade DR's of yesteryear were expected to see extended service off months and months far from a qualified gunsmith. That is why many came with extra strikers, some even locks. Shotguns aren't so inexpensive compared to DR's of the same quality. $3500 gets you a new useable SxS shotgun today. There is a post here where you can join a few other members and get a new useable DR for seven or eight hundred dollars more. When you start to talk really good guns and rifles you are talking lots of hand labor. Only hand labor can make a shotgun handle as well as it can. Same with a rifle. Some not so labor intensive guns and rifles handle really well but it is ussually a calibre or two or a gauge or barrel length in the line up. Vary from this "lucky" combination of components and it would take hand labor to get the proper handling. Really good shotguns and rifles will most all handle well if they come close to fitting you. Useing shotguns as an example, since most of us probably have had more opportunity to handle really good shotguns vs useable shotguns as opposed to DR rifles, simply because of the number of DR's compared to shotguns, I once could just not get the pricing difference between a decent shotgun and a really good one. But over time as I had more and more opportunity to shoot really good shotguns, and the better and better I got with a shotgun, the better handleing and also the consistency of the better handleing of really good shotguns just stood out (at least those not butchered by some previous owner.) The reason is the extensive hand labor that goes into making the gun handle, and that labor gives the gun both its handling and its price. I've also discovered along the way that it is awfully hard to put yourself into a situation at a target range or a skeet or sporting clays feild where the handling differences make a whole hell of alot of difference. Easy in the feild with a shotgun, not so common with a rifle. But really critical with a rifle for DG IMO. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: Bisonland,I believe you did start this to cause a donnibrook, but you may be ligett, but I doubt it. [QUOTE] I don't know just why you and 400 think Bisonland is a sturrer. I can see his point of view, even if he is wrong.  In any case I hope you Big Shots don't scare off people who use a forthright or controversial style in their questions. All the huff and puff makes for interesting and informative reading. He might be convinced in his own time, and not immediately after reading the first answer. Look how long it took 400 to get going. But it was worth waiting for.  | |||
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I have been thinking some about this. Most doubles comes with exebition grade wood, and engraving to a certain degree. Im wondering how much it would cost to make a working mans double. A 9.3x74r Merkel double costs around 4000$ A 470NE Merkel costs around 8000$ Where is the price increase?? They use the same action, same barrels, the same amount of work. Put A grade wood instead of AAA+ wood. Minimal with engraving, ordinary checkering, and you should shave of a couple of grand. Usually its the action fitted with barrels that costs money, engraving and nice wood are just nice to watch, and not needed. | |||
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Are you sure they use the same action? The 9.3 should use a slimmer action or it will be clunky. | |||
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does it matter? A 470 action can't have more than a dollar's worth of extra steel in it. I don't see where the price of doubles is justified by their costs - it is the demands that make the difference. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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WELL! I guess I've been sent to the corner of the room for the remainder of the simester! I guess I can take my scolding like the BIG SHOT you think I am! The reason I think the answer to the pretend question posted by Bisonland was a stir, is he couldn't wait for even one answer before he started calling those who make, and own double rifles SNOBBS & EXCESSIVE! Below is the second paragraph of Bisonlend's first post, before anyone even posted back to him. That would indicate to me, his need to insult! Bisonland:
To me that indicates trolling for a fight! I don't believe Bisonland is scared off, as you put it! I would be willing to bet every post he makes will end in a  match, because that was his intent when he posted his name calling on a forum where mostly double rifle owners, post. I though that when I read his post, but tried to answer it anyway. I too, agree with much said here on this string on the priceing practices of makers, when compareing a 9.3 X74R to a 470NE in the same brand. but not completely. There are reasons for the difference in price, but not as much as is posted here! Someone quoteing a 9.3X74R double rifle by Merkel to be $4000 may be true in Europe, but certainly not in the USA. The 470NE is not $8000 in the USA either, new! Just one thing that makes a difference in building the two indicated here is 100 rds of ammo to regulate the 470NE @ $240 US, per box of 20 = $1245 US for ammo alone! while the 9.3X74R ammo is $48 per 20 rds,= $240 US for 100 rds. On top of that is the time it takes a person regulating the 470NE to be able to stand shooting 100 rds of full house Federal TB solids, in the regulating process! JAL you are intitled to your opinion, just like Bisonland, but so am I intitled to my OPINION! If that makes me a BIG SHOT, SNOBB, and EXCESSIVE, then so be it! My opinion, is worth exactly what you paid for it, and reading it is optional! 400 can speak for himself! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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How about this exercise in manufacturing economics: What would you think the cost of this would / should be: SXS Double Rifle Caliber 470 (only choice) Black Walnut stock or Composite (no other choice from manufacturer) Monobloc receiver (investment cast) Parkerized(?) no bluing. 24" barrels " Parkerized(?) " no bluing Double triggers extractors ( no ejector option ) Fixed sights ramp front, wide shallow V rear, regulated to 50 yards minute of pie plate (roughly 4" center to center). 14" LOP with semi beavertail forend (no customs dimension) No engraving and pressed on checkering on wood. How much demand would foresee (how many units could one sell each year not just start up)? Where do you think this gun could be manufactured (Brazil)? Could DR SXS version of a Model T be built today? Would this be built today? What effect would it have on the existing DR SXS market? Again just rhetorical questions and a simple economics exercise. Any thoughts? Mario | |||
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For what it's worth and coming from me obviously that's very little. The GSI Merkel price for the base 470 is $10,595 , they don't list a 9.3. The Chadicks Chapuis price for a PH1 in 9.3 is $9,700 and for a 470 in the same model is $13,700. If a manufacturer of Double Rifles pays anywhere NEAR list for ammunition to regulate a rifle that will be sold with a test target stating what ammunition was used is WAY beyond my belief. If it takes a regulator 100 rounds to regulate a Double he is probably a trainee. Which brings up the same point about pricing. It takes very little in materials and even less in additional skills to produce 470 ammo as it does to produce 9.3 ammo. It basically falls to the same reason. The demand is low so the price is high. Actual cost is not the determining factor. Why is some ammunition that is not overly high priced only produced at long intervals. Because the demand is not there so it is more cost effective to produce only rarely. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Ramrod... you have an invitation to the Bubba shoot in Huntsville this Saturday, and you can shoot my Cogswell&Harrison 475 Nitro Express double rifle. If you think holding a 90 year old London built double, and firing off 480 grain bullets isn't fun... I'll pay your gas for the drive out... and CBNHuntr.... no beavertail or semi fore ends.... splinter, splinter, splinter... but there are cheap double rifles, and even some over/under rifles... I think even if you made a rifle like you described, the person who is willing to spend, let's say $6000 on this gun, would probably spend the extra $1-2K and get a merkel or blaser, or get something that everytime you look at it, or hold it, you start to dream of Buffalo, Elephant or big NA game, not... "man, I could build one better than this". Doubles tend to be personal, in my opinion, and worth is what each owner or buyer determines... doesn't make you snobby or mightier... Al NRA Life Memeber SCI Life Member Dallas Safari Life Member DRSS We Band of Bubbas | |||
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I agree with you 100%! The 100 rds is excessive. However, as you plainly state the cost of makeing a 9.3 double, and the makeing of a 470 NE double should be close to the same. The fact that one will sell in the thousands, and the other will sell only in a couple hundred per year, makes the price difference more understandable. The same goes for the cost of American made ammo in Germany, even at wholesale, once the tarrifs are tacked on, the ammo will be full retail in Germany, and Merkel 470s are regulated with USA made Federal TB solids. That is $240 US for 20 rds! The final price in the USA, on a German made rifle will be at least twice what it costs in Germany! Thanks to tarrifs tacked on by the goverment. The volume of sales, makes something that sells many units far cheaper that one that sell in low numbers. This is the case with a 9.3X74R, and 470NE Merkel double rifles. It all boils down to , if you want one,you pay the price, if you don't, then buy something cheaper! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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So why does a .600 NE typical cost 3x the price of a 470 NE? Not because it took more steel. Rather, because they make so few actions are made in that size that efficiency is lost and more the product is saddled with more cost. | |||
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Now this is my very point. We all would like a discussion on DR s. I wish we could do it without takeing general speach in the worse possible interpretation. For myself, I mean "Hot Shot" as a complement, not even trying on a pun. After all, I've read your African Hunting posts. Re. Bisonland. The passage reads "PRICES snobbish and excessive". NOT (necessarly) OWNERS being snobbish. Witness those here who offer all and sundry a shot out of their doubles. But, I would expect the shop of say H & H to be rather snobbish, and would be disapointed if it wasn't. In fact, if they let ME in, I wouldn't want to shop there. Same with "excessive" prices. Well you could take that to mean Bisonland is rather cheap and lower class if he thinks the price is excessive. So there, he may have insulted himself on one possible slant. Lets talk rifles, I think your a nice hot shot, I thank Bisonland for starting the thread, and I'm an enthusiastic pain in the arse. Regards, John L. | |||
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500, I think you are wrong, at least partially, even mostly. In as much as these are all hand-built, one-at-a-time, guns for the most part, there really isn't much of an opportunity to increase efficiency via an economy of scale. Were it so and given that 470s seem to be the single most common caliber, your hypothesis predictc the 470 would have to be that the cheapest. Yet it is not. Cheaper than a 600 NE, yes, cheaper than a 9.3 or .375 no. I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it can be applied in this case. It's not only what the gun costs, You really have to factor in what the market will bear. The two together drive these prices adn the only real debate is how much each fact contributes to the overall cost. In the meantime, none of this has much bearing on the original question, which I think remains pretty much unexplained. Personally, I feel that an off the rack Ruger quality double is probably quite doable. It may cost a bit more than a Gold Label, but not 5 times more. Unfortunately, I don't think it can be done because there is not the demand for such a rifle, and it is here where your economics of mass quanities comes into play. Were doubles as popular as the American ideal of a hunting rifle as a bolt rifle, there might be enough demand. My own tastes in rifles runs to singleshots and they too are way too expensive for what they are, but again, they are neither hand built one at a time, nor particularly popular with the run and gun crowd, and thus the economy of scale is a factor for them. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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Below is a posting I recently made on another thread that touched upon this question as to the cost of double rifles and the possible interest in a company like Ruger entering the market. In terms of the comparative value of the double rifle market to Ruger a few calculations can provide some insight as to their possible interest. I note on the Ruger website that in 2003 (the last annual report posted) they reported firearms-related revenue of $130 million and gross profit of $34.7 million. I recall reading in one of these forums that during the recent Reno convention Butch Searcy received something like 100 double rifle orders. For the sake of argument, let us say that it was 200. Again for the sake of this example, let us assume that we can sell 5 times this number annually or 1,000 rifles. (I think that it is reasonable that at a lower cost we will help stimulate the market at least a little.) Let us also assume that we can sell these rifles for $5,000 apiece and make a 50% gross profit (or roughly twice what they make on their current product line). (Again these are only assumed data for the sake of this calculation.) This would amount to $5 million dollars in additional revenue and $2.5 million in gross profit. This would equate to an incremental increase of 3.8% in total revenue and 7.2% in gross profit. I hate to say it, but I would suggest that the Board of Directors might yawn at this point.... Unless one could project a market of at least 2,600 rifles a year (or a $13 million market; 10% of the total firearm sales revenue) I doubt that they would have much interest. They might have some interest if one could reasonably project a material increase in gross profit. Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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Brent, A couple of points. The rifles are hand made to varrying degrees but they all start with action forgings and barrel blanks and stock blanks...The bigger the barrel forgings or mono blocks and action forging the rarer and the more money to produce since the tooling has to be paid for with fewer units, likewise the space, etc and the opportunity cost of not producing more units of a more popular size. The larger the calibre and thus recoil the fewer the number of blanks which will be suitable as well, especially high end blanks. This makes the blank cost more and requires the individual who purchases the blank to spend more time looking and then evaluating it. Economy of scale is lost. For a parrallel look at magnum length and Rigby size Mauser style actions. Only relatively recently have these become routinely available at prices below shocking. Modern machinery and demand have led to a range of options and a range of prices, and that just for actions, without the hand work that makes them custom rifles. Also, as I understand it, far and away the current most popular DR chambering is 9.3x74R. Lower and mid level european rifles, where the 9.3 is a favorite, built on action of the size to accomodate the 9.3 are all relatively less expensive, since there is the economy of scale in the essential components and also in the labor as well. 470 is the most popular DG round - though NE 450 No2's results in Zimbabwe last month surely gets one thinking. In the end the pricing of the rifle will have to be sufficient to pay for fixed and variable costs and to return a profit sufficient to justify the risks and opportunity cosr and trouble no matter how many units are produced. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Damn! That's what I meant to say, just didn't know how!   ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Thanks to all for contributing to this discussion, I appreciate it & have learned a lot from different points of view. My intention was to get the feedback & learn something, which I did. I did not intend to offend or just stir up the topic. My comment about snobbishness exists (whether subliminal, hidden or overt). We (especially me!) are all guilty in some degree. I once owned a fine auto, quite expensive...a friend has his autos (Ferraris, Porsches, etc. all insured for a cool million...he admits to snobbishness to me. Its a human trait, and I doubt that anyone is completely free of it, I probably should have stated it better...but I still think there is a certain amount involved...maybe call it pride of ownership would be more genteel. Anyway, apologies to those who have taken offense, kudus to those with more experience than I with double rifles for contributing. I agree with Norseman quite a bit on this subject. I have shot many fine doubles of shotguns..and understand the handling qualities spoken of...and understand it is a good quality of fine double rifles. After all is said & done, I still contend that a fine double rifle can be built less costly that what the market is being charged. Its just that its not tried or being done. Why bother when guys will pay the high tariff? Amen, brothers, good shooting! Best Regards, Bisonland "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, no matter how ridiculous it may be" | |||
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I don't believe snobbery has much to do with the cost of building a double rifle (and hence, the retail price of said beast), but there is no doubt that some folks involved in the business of making and selling such items have, from time to time, been noted for such proclivities!! But as to costs, in addition to making all the basic components (which admittedly could be made by CNC, but probably would still require some hand fitting), many of the long hours involved in double rifle production go into REGULATING the two barrels so that they shoot to as close to the same POI as possible. This is a very individual thing, as no two barrels will shoot identically regardless of how they are made. Consequently, there is no fast mechanical means for putting the two barrels together so they will shoot as required. Regulation has to be done by an expert human being, on a cut-and-try basis, shooting with the exact same ammo the rifle will use when completed. Often this process is very time consuming, not to mention very punishing to the "regulator" if the rifle happens to be one in the "bruiser" class. Once the piece is basically completed, you cannot expect the maker to want to sell it plain, after all the work and high-quality materials that went into it. So many are highly ornamented, as befits a fine weapon. None of this can be done for a "reasonable price". Yet, when you consider all the above, the prices are really very reasonable. If you want a less costly arm, buy one of simpler design that does not need all the hand work effort that a good double requires, such as a nice single-shot, or even a (GASP-CHOKE-SPUTTER) BOLT ACTION!! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I am continually amazed at the variety of options and different calibers offered in double rifles, past and present. I doubt that there would me much of a market for a standardized and basic dr at a price much over @2,500. People want what they want and apparently some of them can afford to get it. | |||
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The reason a 93. x 74 can be built for less than a 470 has a lot to do with the additional fitting the action requires to get the proper surface contact on all the locking and bearing surfaces. That's why a double shotgun can be built so much cheaper than a double rifle (as MAc eluded to earlier). The stresses are so much lighter in a scatter gun that the tolerances can be markedly sloppier and the gun will still last a full lifetime. The tiniest "slop" in a double allows battering to occur and battering is what causes a gun to go off-face eventually; but degrees matter more in the big diameter cases than the little ones. FWIW, the action fitter is the most skilled position (and highest paid) in a double gun shop, not the engraver, stocker or regulator. The action is fitted much like a stock is inletted; it's blacked with soot and closed to find high spots and then filed some more. This cannot be machine replicated. Once the entire mating/locking surfaces show sign of proper contact, the action is fitted. This is why I think if the Spartans ever come out it might be unwise to rechamber to the big 450. The pressure might be lower but the case head size will cause greater thrust and lower life of the action. But for $500 you can always throw it a way and do anothert, I guess. It's also why the 30-06 at 58,000 psi is ok and only a 28,000 psi 45-70 (although that may be ooverly conservative). Case head size and thrust, not pressure. And the bigger the case, the more bolt thrust so fit becomes progressively more critical and more time is spent as the case head size goes up. That's why a 470 costs twice as much as a 9.3 or 1/2 as much as a 600 NE. As far as base cost, the forgings are not that much apart. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Tiggertate, I appreciate your description of this action making process, but based on your discussion it sounds as though "proper is proper" for a 470 action. If this is the case, proper, using the identical manufacturing process, would seem to take generally the same amount of time for a 470 as is required for manufacturing a 600. Even if an additional amount of time was required for this work element could not reasonably explain the factor of two or more in cost differential between a 470 and 600. I would suggest if that was the case we would see a big price difference between the 470 and 500 or certainly between a 375 class rifle and a 500, but in these cases the price is the same. Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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