Hello All: I know this may be a debateable or
controversial topic...but I've always wondered if
double rifles have to be as expensive as they usually are. I tend to think, because they are used by those of us who can afford Safaris..and the riflemakers know this...prices are automatically
gouged. I realize that the construction or building one is more of a job than, say a good bolt gun...I know that...but I still think the prices are both snobbish & excessive. Blame the Limeys.
The Russians had come out with (Hadn't seen it yet)..a Baikel double...goes up to .45-70 only & is said to be around $500. Now, I know the quality is probably not as great as a finely made double...but this is mentioned only to say that the construction cost is nowhere near the prices demanded of other guns.
When you deal with fine rifles...there is a passion, an unreasoning that discounts sense.
My opinion is that a good double rifle could be had at a more reasonable price...if the riflemakers would do so..but no reason for them to, if everyone plasters them with loads of money for the high priced items, so the hunters are complicit in this.
Comments?
Tom

quote:

Originally posted by bisonland:
Hello All: I know this may be a debateable or
controversial topic...but I've always wondered if
double rifles have to be as expensive as they usually are. I tend to think, because they are used by those of us who can afford Safaris..and the riflemakers know this...prices are automatically
gouged. I realize that the construction or building one is more of a job than, say a good bolt gun...I know that...but I still think the prices are both snobbish & excessive.] Blame the Limeys.
The Russians had come out with (Hadn't seen it yet)..a Baikel double...goes up to .45-70 only & is said to be around $500. Now, I know the quality is probably not as great as a finely made double...but this is mentioned only to say that the construction cost is nowhere near the prices demanded of other guns.
When you deal with fine rifles...there is a passion, an unreasoning that discounts sense.
My opinion is that a good double rifle could be had at a more reasonable price...if the riflemakers would do so..but no reason for them to, if everyone plasters them with loads of money for the high priced items, so the hunters are complicit in this.
Comments?
Tom

Compareing a Russian water pipe double to a real double rifle, is like compareing a diamond to a piece of pea gravel!

Biasonland your confusion is understandable for someone who is evidently not well versed on what is required to build a REAL double rifle. It isn't as simple as glueing two barrels together, and bolting them to a stamped out action, stocked with wood from an apple crate. The makeing of a good field grade, WORKING double rifle, with no fancy engraveing, or upgrade wood, requires an average of 800, to 1000 hours of the combined efforts of a team of very skilled artisans. Even at the wages commanded by top machinests, who, by the way, are not skilled enough to build double rifles, that 800, to 1000 hours would make the rifle very expensive, if nothing else was required to finish a working double rifle. With that in mind, it is amaseing to me why they are as cheap as they are! A very good WORKING double can be bought new for around $8000, to $10,000 US, and when you consider a used car you can buy for $8K, $10K will maybe last you two or three years before you have to junk it, while a well made $8000 double will be handed down to your grand kids, and thier grand kids, still working as if new!
A double rifle made intirely by machines, is what the Russian rifle is, and IMO, $500 is far too much for it!

Thanks for reply...I realize I'm ignorant on the subject, so wrote to ellicit a response like yours.
Thanks very much. I had no idea how much went into making a double rifle, now I know.
I'm thinking of getting one for my next African venture...bolt rifles I have used in the past.
Best Regards,
Tom

So much for snobbish attitude I guess. With normal markups, if it takes a 1000 hours to make one, then those guys are earning $5 and hour and will never afford one.

I find the 1000 hours difficult to believe. And if true ridiculously inefficient.

Why could excellent receivers not be made on CNC equipment, and barrels can already by had. Where does all these hours of work go that can not be duplicated otherwise.

Many things, including some firearms are made entirely by machines because you can do things not possible by hands. I fail to see where this would be any different.

There was someone here who wrote about how much time and efford goes into making a good double, I believe it was 500 grains. Maybe we could get Dan(or someone else) to post a link to it. Before I read his post, I was just like you, I really wanted a double(and still do) but was scratching my head as to why they were thousands of dollars. Dan's post on the time involved in a good double is very eye opening. You should read it.

I always wondered that myself. I no longer have any doubts as to the cost of a quality double. After my 2nd week at work its pretty easy to see why they cost that much.

quote:

Originally posted by Esldude:
I find the 1000 hours difficult to believe. And if true ridiculously inefficient.

The 1K - 1200 hour mark is a rule of thumb for a "best" sidelock that would cost somewhere in the 70-100K+ range. Fewer hours than that obvioulsy go into a $10K boxlock.

OK: I started this subject...I still wonder...
Rifle barrels can be wrung out with hammer
forged rifling. The double's receiver is
basically the same as a double shotgun (Maybe
made to stand higher pressures, but similar
design). Dan Lefever once made a double rifle
in .405 Winchester based on his double shotgun
action..so you've got a couple of rifle
barrels put side by side, a receiver for it,
and a stock. It all doesn't have to be put
together completely by hand, now does it?
The regulation of the barrels is one thing..a skilled thing. But are the barrels made by hand? The receivers? It seems to me,
that with the argument it takes so many hours to built one...that the makers are not taking
advantage of modern processes in gunmaking.
Its kinda analogous like saying oh, I have a
split bamoboo fly rod (I do!) made in England that took a skilled specialist umpteen hours to
make & is why it is $600.
So if that many hours is spent making a fine double, I just can't see it. There has to be
modern methods to cut some of the work time off.
It seems to me still like a "prefabricated market"...you've got a double receiver, a couple of barrels regulated and a stock. Now I discount fine engraving, and embellishments. Receiver type that were used in double shotguns for years, double barrels regulated, and a fitted stock. I still can't buy the inflated costs...if it takes 800 hours to make one, I'd have to assume, the maker even cut the tree, dried the wood, did it all, including casting the steel. Hardening it, etc. Come on!
Its a prefabricated, designed market...I still don't buy the inflated cost for a double rifle.
I'll spend more on my Ferrari mechanic...at least I can see where the labor goes...
Best Regards, Tom

You have to handle one and study it to appreciate the workmanship that goes into one of these. For example,

Being able to select which barrel fires first;
Having an indicator on the receiver that shows which barrel will fire first;
Having an indicator on the receiver to show if there is a round in each barrel and whether it has been fired;
Two completely independent trigger and firing mechanisms;
Ejectors that will only eject after a round is fired and if only one barrel is fired, will only eject one barrel;
And the list could go on -- and that is without any engraving.

I am sure that you can build these cheaper and someone like Ruger could probably get it done for under $10,000, but there really is a lot of fine workmanship in a quality double.

Yeah, Dan Lever built those into his double
shotguns back in ,say 1905.
Tom

It still seems to me that the double rifles have
built themselves a legend...what about the detracting points? The barrels are regulated for a specific load, no? In a bolt gun, you can reload with a lot of various loads depending on the requirements, and my 1898 based controlled feed Mauser types are reliable & accurate, with the versatility of different loads.
Still, an unwarrented reputation...
Tom

Unwarranted reputation?

Ask hundreds of professional hunters, not hobby hunters like most of us, and see what they say. I am not suggesting that a double rifle is the answer to all the world's problems and they certainly have their limitations, but more than a hundred years of continuous use by professionals leaves me to believe that it is more than just an "unwarranted reputation" or a "legend". Everyone is entitled to their opinion though.

Well, don't the large majority of people hunting DG in Africa, both PH and customers hunt with bolt action rifles?

Sounds like maybe a little bit of a legend to me.

And I still don't get it. I don't care if a robot running a computer controlling stuff that never has human intervention makes it. Such fine craftsmanship is possible for about anything on a double short of the engraving (which an affordable model need not have) and perhaps the final regulating of the barrels.

Sorry, I just don't see $10k as necessary in these. Of course I wouldn't care if I didn't want one. But at these prices I just won't have one unfortunately.

If anyone know an article explaining it, I would be more than happy to read it and reconsider.

BL, just a thought, but when you ask for an answer, relax and take it in rather than argue the point. Unless you're trying to stir up a ruckus, which I don't believe you are.

I'm by no means expert or even terribly knowledgeable regarding double guns, but I think you're jumping to some conclusions that while common and intuitive, are incorrect.

Point one, double rifles, that is quality double rifles...the actions resemble shotgun actions superficially, but when you take the wrapping off it's not the case. Few shotgun actions will stand up to the beating large bore nitro cartridges dish out, they aren't built to do that. SAAMI specs on 12 guage scatterguns run in the 16K PSI range, perhaps a bit more, not precisely sure about that. Your average DGR cartridge is quite a bit higher than that. Shooting ounce plus bullets at 1.5 to perhaps 2 times the speed.

Quality Double guns are routinely fitted to the buyer, production guns are not. It makes a huge difference in how the gun mounts, points and how you percieve recoil. Double rifles have sights, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty they are pointing weapons. Pointing properly with one is no different than with a shotgun. It MUST fit properly, or in the case of intended utilization you may likely wind up as a grease spot in the thorn bush.

What I do know about SxS guns is this, and it is the most salient point in the discussion. When you take a DGR into the thick stuff you are as much the quarry as what you seek. Your life depends on the synergy of gun, reflexes and horsepower. There is no sporting arm on earth that will provide a second shot so quickly as a double rifle. Because they are expensive they are also quite reliable. The British Lords rather demanded that don't you see?

Bisonland, no one can really answer your question because no one has made one with modern methods in a modern industrial facility.

I don't own a double rifle but I have handled a number of them in Butch Searcy's shop and I can understand why people want them. Hell, I want one.

The actual cost of making the receiver, barrels and all the other parts on modern CNC machines with modern materials in a large engough batch wouldn't be but a few hundred dollars each at the most.

Hand fitting the parts, if they were made correctly would be minimal and surely could be done in less than 100 hours. Add an option of fitting the stock to the customer and that would add 20-40 hours work.

But, there would be no soul in the final gun and it could not be counted on when you needed it most.

Mac:

You got suckered. Bisonland didn't want to know, he just wanted to piss on something he knows nothing about.


Esldude:

If you have so much faith in your conclustion, run out there bitin' like a sow boy. Let's see how many you can make that somebody will actually pony up for.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't know if Fjold knows anything about doubles or not. I don't, but what he says mirrors my thoughts.

$oul = $tatus

More $oul in the gun = more $tatus for the owner.

Fit, form, and function. If it fits the application, the form is functional then it is a keeper. Just my opinion.

But i have never personally touched a double or felt it's $oul.
Dick

Why a double, ask these two fellows -- one with a bolt action jam and the other with a failed bolt action extraction:

http://www.looksmarthunting.com/p/articles/mi_qa3775/is_200411/ai_n9463615

Probably just "legend".

It's hard to understand what is different in a double shotgun and a double rifle action other than the metallurgy and the regulation of the barrels. Back when Valmets were in production the rifles were about $200 more than the shotguns. After looking at double rifles and double shotguns I see no significient difference in the design and interaction of the parts. Double rifles have bushed firing pins but otherwise are the same as far as the actions go. The stocks are wood and attach and fit the same as a shotgun. The forearms are the same and in fact on the Valmet they ARE the same. Basically all you are paying for is the degree of FINISH you are paying to have done and the fact that there are NO basic Double Rifles. You can buy a Beretta basic O/U for under $2000 or you can buy a top of line for $60,000+ but the action design is basically the same as my 1950's ASE. It's all finish. The basic gun is the same. I doubt Beretta makes special parts,actions,barrels,etc. for their top line guns I would imagine they take them from the production line. The problem is there is not now nor has there ever been that I know of a mass produced Double Rifle other than a couple of O/U's like the Valmet. Lets face it the Double Rifle thing is basically an ego thing both on part of owner and builder. If you want a finely finished gun be it Rifle ,Double Rifle, or Shotgun you pay for this hand work. The difference is you can buy an off the shelf mass produced Rifle or Shotgun and have a satisfactory hunting arm, you cannot do that with a Double Rifle as they don't exist mass produced. The only exception being Valmet/Tikka which I think is no longer being imported if it is in fact being produced. It gets wearying hearing over and over the superiority of Double Rifles.

O/U's ain't double rifles.

So we are supposed to feel wrong because we question the worth of something so expensive we cannot afford it? And don't see how it can cost that much. I can hardly debate the double rifle question, I have never owned one. Yet no one has explained why they must be hand made at tremendous cost.

You can talk about soul all you want. My experience has been it is all in the head of the people talking, and not one whit in the item being considered.

I can see you need an appreciation for the finer points of something like a double rifle. But if you took the finest, most highly knowledgable double rifle maker in the world, what does he do that couldn't be replicated with modern technology? If he set the standards, and others had it made so the result was indistinguisable, is the soul all that is missing.

Not hard to see at some level a double is more reliable than a bolt gun. I imagine the main reason you might see more bolts is more people can afford them.

But I see nothing technically that would prevent a more affordable double that is still simple, and highly reliable without it costing $10k or more.

A best quality double rifle takes 800 hours of labor by master gunsmiths to complete.

A best quality bolt gun takes 200 hours of labor by master gunsmiths to complete, if they start with an off the shelf action.

That is why a double costs more.

500grains,

So none of this 800 hours labor by master gunsmiths can be done as well by any other method?

I will shut up on the subject now. Because as I said, I have no experience with anything more than looking at double rifles.

800 hours, for a best quality double, already includes use of modern technology and manufacturing methods (such as CNC machines, etc.). But you cannot pull parts of a CNC and snap them together like Legos. They need to be hand fitted for 100% reliability and for top quality workmanship.

Of course you can rush things to cut hours, downgrade to unskilled labor instead of using master gunsmiths, and save money by sacrificing quality. The Russian doubles show us what can be done at the other end of the spectrum.

One way to think of it is in terms of housing. A solid, well-constructed and nicely finished house is going to cost several times what a mobile home runs.

Do we want this:



or this:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
800 hours, for a best quality double, already includes use of modern technology and manufacturing methods (such as CNC machines, etc.). But you cannot pull parts of a CNC and snap them together like Legos. They need to be hand fitted for 100% reliability and for top quality workmanship.

Of course you can rush things to cut hours, downgrade to unskilled labor instead of using master gunsmiths, and save money by sacrificing quality. The Russian doubles show us what can be done at the other end of the spectrum.

One way to think of it is in terms of housing. A solid, well-constructed and nicely finished house is going to cost several times what a mobile home runs.

Do we want this:



or this:

I think the view expressed by some here of the capability of high-tech machines is highly unrealistic. If they can do what some believe, our current, entirely machine made, mass-produced bolt action rifles would be the best ever produced. They're not. If they were, it wouldn't take an after market cottage industry to turn them into something that you can trust.

CNC machines are widely used in double rifle manufacture. But double rifle manufacturing has always been, and will always be, low volume. Many of the well known British firms like Holland & Holland, Boss, etc., have invested millions in CNC technology. It does save bench time, but cannot eliminate hand labor. Like Dan said, 800 hours or so for a modern "best" - down from an average of 1300 hours fifty years ago. Today, Holland & Holland builds more guns than at any time in it's history - a little over 100 guns a year. I imagine 10 to 15% of that is double rifles. What is the bail-out factor and the per unit allocation for cost recovery for a million dollar machine on 100 units per year? Right, it makes things easier because it reduces hand work, but it doesn't save any money. Some other London makers have looked at this experience and elected to continue building their "bests" the old way, and their guns aren't any more expensive.

All of the current DRs that are worth having in the under $20K price range - Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, etc. - have less hand work in them than any double rifles that have ever been built, and the prices reflect it. Sure, these guys build a lot more guns per year than Holland, but the per unit cost recovery for the modern machinery is still high. A new UGEX Chapuis 9.3 can be had for $4300. A new Merkel .470 can be had in the $8K range. I don't consider either to be an ideal, but they work. If you restate historical prices for the basic stuff in the old days to 2006 dollars, decent, functional, entry level DRs have never been as cheap as they are today.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hurry and Bid! Your chase to join the elitest ranks of double rifle owners!
A Cheap Double Auction

Interesting.
Concrats 400 Nitro Express, the worst and best posts in one thread. (no need to tag which is which I'd guess.)

JAL:

Yeah, I know. My first was the best, but I'm surprised you found objection to the second. Oh well, sometimes I can't please everyone.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You guys is funny.

Brief commentary regarding 500Grain's picture post. Been on both sides of the equation and ain't looking back. Back in the day of Picture B I was too ignorant to conceptualize the questions, and too cocksure to detour from my personal Dogma, thinking "Man, those things are obsolete, why would anybody want one?". Of course I was also too poor to buy much more than a Mod 94 so there was naturally a motivation to rationalize. There's nothing deeply flawed in using what you can, it's just that sometimes one needs a goal to strive for.There's ALWAYS a better way. Except for mousetraps.

Time - it'll either kill ya or cure ya.

First let me say that I don't doubt the time, labor, material cost on most of those beautiful bouble rifles I see posted. But, I have to ask the question as well. Why does it take $10,000 to get in one.

Looking at bolt rifles. There are rifles out there selling for $10,000 and rifles for $300. Do the high $$ have a lot more work, quality wood etc in them You bet. Are they worth it to some. You bet. Will both rifles function as a hunting rifle You bet.

I have a nice Japanese built over under shotgun. I have another that cost 6 times as much. They will both kill quail just fine. The one is far better to look at. But, for the most part the function is the same.

Looking at the people in line for the Russian 45-70 I would think there would be a huge market for an entry level double. Hey I don't care if the wood is exhibition. Plain walnut is fine. So what if the wood is proud to the metal.

I have a couple real nice 20 guage s/s. I'm not a machinist and don't mean to step on any toes. But I can't follow why it should cost $9000 for a set of barrels with riflings.

While most of us drool over those $150,000 sports cars and don't doubt the cost to build one. We will never have one. We get a nice car for a fraction of the cost and get from a-b. I see most of the doubles as those high priced cars. Great for the ones that can afford them. That Russian version is a Yugo. Hey can't someone build a Chevy, Ford or even an Audi, BMW version for us commom man.

quote:

O Except for mousetraps.

Ddan,
I could teach you a thing or two about mouse traps.

Brent

quote:

But I can't follow why it should cost $9000 for a set of barrels with riflings.

Ramrod,
Most certainly a set of barrels can be had for a couple of hundred dollars. The utilization of those two barrels to shoot to the same POI along with an action that will perform flawlessly, gives you a tool that is also a work of art.

When you get right down to it, there isn't really a good reason to own a double rifle.
I mean any 2nd rate off the shelf bolt rifle can out perform any double rifle. Bolt rifles send bullets down range faster and further and with more accuracy. Bolt rifles win hands down!

Unless you wish to spend some time working on loads the double is regulated to shoot. You are stuck using that load!

Accuracy is usually not MOA, rather MOG(grapefruit).

That being said there is nothing that comes to your shoulder easier or points as nicely as a good double rifle. YOu don't have to think about it, you just bring it up and it's there ready to do what it does best. Two large caliber rounds delivered at low pressure no matter what!

Do yourself a favor, if you ever get the chance to put your hands on a double, remember the first round is always free!

Drop me an email and I'll be glad to let you shoot mine!

quote:

I'll be glad to let you shoot mine

Rusty, Thanks for the offer. I'm afraid if I shot one I would NEED one. LOL While I've not shot a good quality double I have felt them and wished. I did have an old percusion double about 30 years ago and liked shooting it for fun. The in my younger dumb days I would sell one toy to buy the next. Darn hindsite is great.

I've always preferred a s/s shotgun. To me they point like my hand. A good double rifle would to the same I would think.

What I would really like is a decent double hey even in a 45-70 to just shoot. While I would buy one of those Russians if they ever showed up. I would like just a little more quality. I have no plans to hunt dangerous game. I own a 375H&H and 416 Taylor if I did. Just something to own and play.

this reminds me of the time a machinist i know could'nt justify the price of a set of Talley rings and bases so he decided to make some.....he failed miserably. all i can say on this is challenge your local "gunsmith/machinist" to make a working double on a pre made sxs shotgun action of his choice. and by working i mean one that will put the bullets from each barrel close to each other at 25 yards.

quote:

I'm afraid if I shot one I would NEED one.

Yep, that's what happened to me! And I was wager happened to a lot of other DR owners...

Below is the information that Dan (500grains) posted about the time it takes to build a DR. Since someone mentioned it earlier, I thought I'd find it and post it for reference.

From 500grains:


Make Barrels � 50 to 100 hours:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A barrel maker takes about 50 hours to make a pair of side by side barrels and 100 hours for an over and under pair. This entails making sure that the tubes are straight, the wall thickness is correct by striking it down to size, brazing the lumps together keeping them parallel and with the correct convergents. Fitting the top and bottom ribs to the barrels, then lapping them out to their proof size and making sure the chokes are to the required size, finally finish them off by giving them a first polish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Make Action � 300 to 400 hours:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actioning a side by side sidelock takes about 300 hours and a over and under 400hours. Because there are so many hours for an actioner to do, it is better that two or three actioners share the jobs out between them, as their job skills will be different and by working together you get a more highly skilled made gun. The jobs range from machining up the barrel lumps, fitting the extractors in the barrels, jointing the barrels, action and forend together, then fitting the locks, lever work, cocking limbs, ejector parts and safety work, making sure that the customers personal measurements are correct. File and chisel the shape on then getting it passed at the proof house in London, then making and fitting the trigger plate, finally making it all work together and getting it ready for stocking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Make Stock � 90 to 140 hours:.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stocking a sidelock takes about 90 hours and an over and under 140 hours. He must fit the action body correctly on to the stock blank, then fitting the trigger plate and the lock plates in. Then fitting all the internal parts allowing them to work inside the wood. The stock is then made off to the customers measurements and shape required. The forend iron is then let in to the wood and then layed on to the barrels until the forend iron is laying in the correct place. They also fit all the snap work and make off the forend. Finally clearing any wood that stops the gun from working smoothly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engrave (optional) � 100 to 350 hours or even more:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engraving a London style scroll on a gun takes about 100 to150 hours, and Game scene engraved gun 350 hours minimum. He will engrave on the gun whatever you want, from a basic scroll to a deep carving or gold inlay work. But be prepared to pay for the best.

After the gun has been engraved it must be hardened to protect the engraving from getting damaged and make the action and parts hard wearing. There are two ways of doing this, colour hardening, this will leave the harden parts with a green and blue spectrum of flowing colours, this is mainly done to scroll engraved guns. Then there is brush bright hardening using a form of cynonide to give a 5 thou deep layer of hardness to which the finisher will polish and this will allow all the engraving to be seen. This type of hardening can be used on scroll and all game scene guns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finish � 100 to 150 hours:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The gun should be stripped by the finisher, about 25 hours, prior to engraving. He will make sure all the metal is under the wood work and seated down properly, then he will make off all the pin making sure they are slotted and straight, and polish the outside metalwork for the engraver to start work on.

After engraving, finishing a gun takes about 100 to 150 hours. This will entail refitting everything together making sure it works freely, polishing most of the internal parts to a mirror finish, taking the barrels to be blacked and polishing them after, checker and oil the stock and forend wood. Then when everything is ready, they assemble the gun and test fire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total hours (average): 750 hours.

quote:

I could teach you a thing or two about mouse traps.Wink

I'll just bet you could! Using BP or Uranium?

Please indulge me an ignorant question about a double. I am expecting a dble 9.3x74R this week from France. There is a small "key" in the rib at the muzzle, apparently used to regulate the barrels, which have been regulated in France for me. Do I leave that key in place??....or do I remove it??
Thanks.
Alex aax1@bellsouth.net