There's a Sabatti DR at Cabelas for $1,599 in 9.3x74R. I called...the muzzles are ground on both barrels, and it has the "Optowood"; a film dip that looks like high-grade walnut. Anyway, if you wanted to play around with it, not a bad price for a DR. You can see it on www.gunsinternational.com, item 100205992.

What does "muzzles are ground" mean?
Are the sabatti rifles built as nice as say a Merkel?The price of these rifles i likie

458, on some of the Sabattis out there, the
factory used a "short-cut" when a rifle was difficult to regulate. They would use a Dremel or some other tool to modify (grind away) some of the rifling at the muzzle to get the bullets from that barrel(s) to more towards the other. This is cheaper and faster than breaking the solder on the barrels and starting the regulation all over again.

As to your question, NO...I would not consider the Sabattis to be in the same category of function and quality as the Merkel. I just thought that for the price, someone with the talent to work up a regulation load, and perhaps make other modifications, might want a DR to play with.

Biebs,
On the same website you mentioned, I also see another same model Sabatti at reduced price. Bet that it too has issues with the muzzle grinding "regulation process." Maybe Cabelas is starting to wake up, and sell off the defective ones, and, I hope, no longer accepting any of them with such issues, from their Florida importer. If so, that would soon get back to the Sabatti plant, and they would stop such practives!

Even if it was $999 they are still too much.

Selling them off cheap doesn't make the problem go away.

.

quote:

Even if it was $999 they are still too much.

Yes, I feel the same. I passed on it even thinking it was $1,599. My thoughts regarding double rifles...either do it right, or don't do it at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Even if it was $999 they are still too much.

Yes, I feel the same. I passed on it even thinking it was $1,599. My thoughts regarding double rifles...either do it right, or don't do it at all.

I'd buy a Remington / Baikal POS before this,
just because at least you have half a chance of regulating it yourself.

.

Jon

We need to get you a job as a greeter at Wal-mart. You have 3513 posts (at last count) / 28 months = 125/ month = 4 / day +/-.... Way too much time on your hands. Dang at that rate you might catch up with Rich!

Don, the freedom of early retirement, plus a love of all things rifles and hunting, makes for some lively posting, I guess! :-)

I just wonder if you could have JJ cut the barrels back and re regulate.

Biebs
Lets offer $500 each for all the returned ones and take them to Bailey to fix them.
Larry

ELK,
I can just hear Bailey moaning about that Idea. I'm in for three

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Even if it was $999 they are still too much.

Yes, I feel the same. I passed on it even thinking it was $1,599. My thoughts regarding double rifles...either do it right, or don't do it at all.

I'd buy a Remington / Baikal POS before this,
just because at least you have half a chance of regulating it yourself.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
I just wonder if you could have JJ cut the barrels back and re regulate.

First off JJ has already said he wouldn't touch a Sabatti at all,or any double rifle with brazed-in wedges, so that is out!

Something that nobody has made clear is, are the ribs and wedges brazed-in or soft soldered? If the ribs are soft soldered so they can be easily removed and salvaged, and the wedges can be re-regulated, even if they are brazed-in or in the case of the Sabattis, "regulated at all",because it seems they weren't before.

Brazed in wedges can be re-regulated by simply cutting them down the middle lengthwise leaving one half of the wedge attached to each barrel! This leaves clean metal between the two halves of the brazed-in factory wedge. Now you take a very thin tapered wedge, fluxed, and slid it in between the two halves of the old wedge, and regulate with soft solder! If the muzzles have been Dremmeled, they can be cut back at this time to remove that portion before re-regulating on the barrels.

Bought cheap enough, so the cost of re-regulating can be covered, assuming you can do the work your self, these things might be worth fixing. Regulating is not a job with a monkey wrench and a claw hammer, however!
I can do the work, but no longer have access to a well-appointed machine shop, as I did when working for American Airlines before retirement, after 31 years on the job, back in 1996!

Sabattis are not the only very nice “LOOKING” rifles with regulating problems! If I had access to the tools I could also salvage a Winchester Grand European O/U 9.3X74R double that I bought from one of the posters here on AR!
This rifle shoots perfect one ragged hole groups from either barrel, the only problem is at 50 yds the top barrel prints 4 inches above the point of aim, in line vertically, while the bottom barrel prints 5 inches below the point of aim, and 3 inches to the left! That was $3000.oo thrown down the drain! That is partly my fault because I didn’t get ammo for a full month so I could shoot it! Needless to say, it is certainly in need of regulating, but JJ will not touch it! Looks nice in my gun vault though!

Mac and all others reading this on this website,
If JJ said he wouldn't touch any double rifle with brazed in wedges, and I too heard that he had said that, IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE SABATTI, because I can assure him and you all, THAT THE SABATTI DOES NOT HAVE BRAZED IN REGULATION WEDGES, or brased in top/bottom ribs. I have also heard, from the "rumor mill" forum sites that Sabatti used silver solder, or higher temperature solder, and/or brazing. None of those rumors are true, at least not with the more expense big bore model (I know nothing about the smaller cheaper model, as I have never had one and never worked on one). The reason I can say this, is due to fact that I took one apart, helping a friend re-regulate his .450 Sabatti, and found regulation wedge and top and bottom ribs all put together with normal lower temperature common solder. Prior to W. Ellis Brown publishing his book, now in 2nd edition, on converting double shotguns to double rifles, I took class from him on same subject, while in gunsmithing school, Pine Tech. College, MN. Part of that class process was, of course, regulating double rifle barrels, so let me just say that if you know what you are doing, and you exercise enough care and patience, the Sabatti can easily be re-regulated, without problems associated with Sabatti Brazing or similar. Through the years, I have taken apart and/or re-regulated numerous double rifles, old Classic British ones, old German/Austrian ones, old Belgian ones, etc., and newer ones too, and I have seen very few of them that had regulation wedges or ribs brazed in. I have seen wedges and ribs brazed in on only a very few European double rifles, especially ones from Czechoslovakia.

Biebs, I could not get the link to work but I inserted the code you gave and it comes back as a regular priced ($2999) 9.3x74. Any thoughts?

Double rifle jack

That's good to know - and interesting.

It would also be interesting to know how
any grinding affects re regulation if it is attempted, since the metal can't be out back into the barrel.

.

.

500N,
Some of these bigger bore Sabatti rifles WERE NOT MUZZLE GROUND, I own two, and others own other ones with good muzzles; good rifling all the way to end of barrels. Some of these have good regulation, my two and others, shoot good groups with good accuracy (if that was achieved by chance or by actual efforts of Sabattti, I would not know); some do not. If one were re-regulating one that had been muzzle ground, one could shorten the barrels a bit (something I would suggest), or install new barrels into existing monoblock, to get any barrel length one preferred. One could re-regulate, leaving the muzzle grinding as is, but that certainly would not be my choice. If one were putting in all the time and/or expense to re-regulate, one would be far better ahead to do it with completely sound barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
or install new barrels into existing monoblock, to get any barrel length one preferred.

That is IMHO putting good money after bad money.

You might as well just buy a new rifle for all the stuffing around
to do that.

Either way, Sabatti should have done it properly in the first place
and Cabellas should have told them so instead of trying to make a quick buck.

.

quote:

Either way, Sabatti should have done it properly in the first place
and Cabellas should have told them so instead of trying to make a quick buck

+1

Mac, I sent you a PM.

quote:

Biebs, I could not get the link to work

JCS, when it first came up on Guns International, it was priced at $1,599. I called and found it had the ground muzzles, and even then showed poor regulation on the test target, so I passed. I understand now that Cabelas told someone else who called that the price was a mistake. Either way, I wouldn't touch it.

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Mac and all others reading this on this website,
If JJ said he wouldn't touch any double rifle with brazed in wedges, and I too heard that he had said that, IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE SABATTI, because I can assure him and you all, THAT THE SABATTI DOES NOT HAVE BRAZED IN REGULATION WEDGES, or brased in top/bottom ribs.

Doubleriflejack, I think I didn't make myself clear! What I said is JJ said he would not touch a Sabatti, "OR" any double rifle that had brazed wedges! In regard to the Sabatti his statement was he wouldn't touch one at all regardless of the wedges, just too many issues with them! Regulation of a double rifle is not that hard to do if the guy doing it knows how double rifles work! There are pleanty of very good gunsmiths who simply do not understand double rifle but think they do! This gets them into trouble on occasion!

The fact that the Sabatti is soft soldered is news, because I've never seen it in a post before yours! That fact makes the re-regulation of them a snapp, so the muzzles can be cut back past the ground muzzles, and re-set!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mac, I sent you a PM.

Got it Todd, and responded! Small world!

So, are the Sabattis, all of a sudden, not so terrible if they can be reregulated without much fuss?
I have noticed some of the higher grade Sabattis getting down near $4K.
On another thread here http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/4131071461
these guys are building guns starting at $5K in bigbore chamberings admittedly built on 20GA shotgun actions!

Based on this comparison, I see the Sabatti as the better deal even with the added cost of reregulation.

So are there any known smiths who will cut the barrel and do the required regulation? I bought a like new used Sabatti about 6 weeks before the Dremeled barrels issue was posted. On close inspection, one of the barrels has been slightly ground.

Since it's a used rifle I assume that complaining to Cabelas's is not an option. I like the 450/400 and it shoots well; however, I would like to have it done up proper. Any suggestions appreciated.

quote:

I like the 450/400 and it shoots well; however, I would like to have it done up proper. Any suggestions appreciated.

My suggestion is to leave it as-is and enjoy shooting it!
The cost of cutting back and reregulating is likely to run about 25% (what do you guys think? Cut down, recrown, regulate, cost of ammo, then a reblack - more than $1K?) of the cost of your gun and may not shoot any better than it does now.

quote:

Originally posted by Oday450:
So are there any known smiths who will cut the barrel and do the required regulation? I bought a like new used Sabatti about 6 weeks before the Dremeled barrels issue was posted. On close inspection, one of the barrels has been slightly ground.

Since it's a used rifle I assume that complaining to Cabelas's is not an option. I like the 450/400 and it shoots well; however, I would like to have it done up proper. Any suggestions appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
My suggestion is to leave it as-is and enjoy shooting it!
The cost of cutting back and reregulating is likely to run about 25% (what do you guys think? Cut down, recrown, regulate, cost of ammo, then a reblack - more than $1K?) of the cost of your gun and may not shoot any better than it does now.

If the rifle shoots well I’d follow Huvius’ advice and leave it alone, and simply accept it for what it is and hunt with it!

However if you are determined to “FIX” it then DUBLERIFLEJACK can re-regulate it for you! He says he has two of them himself, and has re-regulated a couple others for customers! Below is a quote from him!

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
500N,
Some of these bigger bore Sabatti rifles WERE NOT MUZZLE GROUND, I own two, and others own other ones with good muzzles; good rifling all the way to end of barrels. Some of these have good regulation, my two and others, shoot good groups with good accuracy (if that was achieved by chance or by actual efforts of Sabattti, I would not know); some do not. If one were re-regulating one that had been muzzle ground, one could shorten the barrels a bit (something I would suggest), or install new barrels into existing monoblock, to get any barrel length one preferred. One could re-regulate, leaving the muzzle grinding as is, but that certainly would not be my choice. If one were putting in all the time and/or expense to re-regulate, one would be far better ahead to do it with completely sound barrels.

Mac,
I could re-regulate any double, including a Sabatti, and I could convert some shotguns to double rifles, having learned the process from W. Ellis Brown at Pine Tech, prior to his writing book on same subject, as I have done several of these conversions successfully. I helped a good friend re-regulate his Sabatti, a .450 NE. rifle that DID NOT HAVE MUZZLE GRINDING ISSUES. BUT, I WILL NOT DO ANY OF THIS WORK, OR ANY OTHER WORK EITHER, FOR ANYONE. I AM RETIRED, and work only on my own guns and things, and, occasionally, rarely on a close friend's guns. W. Ellis Brown himself, among others, could re-regulate any double rifle (see his website).

quote:

I AM RETIRED, .

So, how do you feeeel about it then?? Come on now, you are amongst friends. You can let your inner feelings out. Don't go beatin around the bush... Okay, Group Hug for doubleriflejack everybody!

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaCole:

quote:

I AM RETIRED, .

So, how do you feeeel about it then?? Come on now, you are amongst friends. You can let your inner feelings out. Don't go beatin around the bush... Okay, Group Hug for doubleriflejack everybody!

Does anyone have a GroupHug symbol ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:



Does anyone have a GroupHug symbol ?

.

The base Sabatti's are selling for 2699.00 new right now at Cabelas.They give you 30 days to try
them and return them if not satisfied. I may get a 45/70 and take it to the Knob Creek Shoot this week. They have one with only 2 holes in the test target and they are in the area of a silver dollar. I can't tell if they have been ground
visually.I'm bringing a bore lite and digital caliper to check it today.