I spent countless hours talking with Caswell and a hoast of others before deciding to buy my double. Many of the folks that own a 450-400, 3" have said one needs a 26"barrel and at best with a 400 gr bullet 1950-2100 f/s is about what one could expect.
These rifles had a balistic profile that should get them to 2150 f/s which is my goal. The case is big enough and the barrels long enough that one should be able to achieve that profile. Can a new rifle by Searcy be regulated and a proper load worked up to deliver the 2150 f/s it was designed to do? If I substitute and want to use a North Fork bullet or GS custom for that matter will the regulation be affected substantially? Would it be better to provide Butch with some loaded rounds with the GS Custom bullet in order to regulate the barrels? Could that 2150 f/s be achieved out of 24" tubes? My goal is a light to carry, 9-9.5 lb. rifle that hits hard and is light and fast to handle. Is all of this a pipe dream?

Your dream is not impossible at all. At one time I had a Watson Bros. 450/400 3" and it easily maid 2150fps with 400 grain Woddleighs. It weighed 9 lbs. 6 onces.

465H&H

DEFINITELY NOT ! Searcy will build a 450/400 with 26" barrels that will deliver your 2150fps, and within your weight requirements.

Do you think that 24" barrels will make the grade? Rusty really likes long barrels. I am 5'8" tall and have a 13.25"LOP with factory rifles. I was fitted at the ACCG this year and gave the numbers to Butch. I think that the 24" rifle would handle better for me but I have to defer to those with more experience than I for information. I do want the 2150 mark, call me anal on that. I just want all that the round is supposed to do. Nine pounds of heavenly rifle with a nasty attitude. In addition, I ordered up a set of barrels in 375 FL MG. Are 26" tubes necessary for that round? I want the two barrels to be as close to the same feel and do not want one longer than the other.

lb404
I would prefer 26" bbls. That is what I have on my 450/400 3 1/4"

My 450 No2 has 28" bbls.
I have handled a 450 No2 with 24" bbls same frame as mine. I prefer the 28".

It is a personal thing.

What about performance??

I believe that the .450/.400 3 1/4", unlike most of the other nitro expresses, was developed in 26" tubes. If you really want 2150 then the standard load in 26" bbls should be pretty close.

If it were me I would get both bbl sets in 26".

That is what I did. But I really like short barrels on a double.

IMO, get the length you want, and regulate the rifles to the load you want that gives the velocity you want. If you think 24" barrels are best for you then you should get them. Even if there is some velocity difference, no game animal will ever notice it.

I like longer tubes but I am taller than you and have always preffered longer tubes. I like my shotguns with 30" barrels and like my double rifle with 26 1/2" tubes, but it is an entirely personal preference.

I'd have Butch find a 2150fps loading for 24" barrels and the have at it, for the 375FL Mag, I'd have him find a load at 2450 for the 300gr and go with it.

On your comments on what the 450/400 was supposed to do, well it was supposed to do just what it did - 2025fps or so in the feild. 2125fps out of 30" barrels according to Kynoch. No neeed to limit yourself to these numbers; pressures equal to or less than these can give you the 2150fps that you seek; but you will need to reload or have custom ammo made - not an issue, imo.

JPK

My Rodda 400 3" has 24" barrels. With most of the standard accepted loads, it is in the 2050 fps range with the Woodleigh 400 gr. softs. With the accepted dictum that each inch of barrel length is around 40-50 fps, that would put a 26" gun in the ballpark. If you want 24" barrels, get them, I don't believe any critter that the cartridge is suitable for will ever know the difference. Hopefully, by late next month, I will have a report on the above and buffalo. I don't think there will be a problem. Remember also, that many of the 400-3" were regulated for the "Tropical" load which was 55 gr. cordite as opposed to the 60 gr. guns. Velocity was nearer to 2000 and they apparently worked just fine!

IF you prefer 24 inch bbls, get them.
The slight loss of velocity will not be noticed.

I would not hesitate to hunt with the 22.5 inch bbled 450/400 Jeffery that Champlinarms has on his site.

If that gun weighed 9 3/4 lbs or less I would buy it for my wife, as it would be easier for her to carry, ie a little shorter and lighter than my @10 lb 400.

True, it might have a little less velocity... but I would just teach her to take 2 quick steps closer right before she shoots to make up the difference in FPS.

All good suggestions. I'll have to think this over pretty well. Once those barrels are bobbed there ain't any going back.

I like the longer bbls for the way the rifle feels, not for any increase in velocity. I did handle a 24 inch bbled 400 Jeffery and I like it.
I have shot it before.
Get the length that feels best to you.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


2125fps out of 30" barrels according to Kynoch.

JPK

Are you sure about that. I thought that the 450-400 3.25 was different in that Kynoch did velocity testing with 26" tubes so 2150fps was very much possible with standard loads and 26" bbls.

Here are some velocities I have recorded over the years with my 450/400 3 1/4".

Different chronos were used and distance to the muzzle has varied from say 10 to 20 feet, depending on the range.

Some times maybe only 2 right and 2 left shots were fired as I was not doing an inteensive study, I just wanted to know how fast they were going.

Sometimes I waas shooting over someonelses chrone and would just fire a few shots of what ever load I was testing or had on hand, but it snould give you some idea.
The bbls are 26" and in perfect shape, they look like new.
The right bbl is usually faster than the left.

All these loads shot and regulated good with the iron sights.
Section One; All loads with IMR 4831

83gr. 400 Woodleigh Soft 2215fps Extreme Spread 67 fps
81gr 400 Barnes X 2095fps ES 49.1
85gr 300 Barnes X 2335fps ES 6.8
83gr 300 Barnes X 2258fps ES 84.3


Group Two;
All shot with RL 15 and a foam filler.

70.5gr 400gr Woodleigh Solid R 2159fps L 2139fps
71.5gr 400 gr Woodleigh Soft R 2176,2209,2185, L2143, 2148,2120.

I have shot deer, pigs, blackbear, and caribou with loads from Group One.

I discovered I liked RL15 better in my 450 No2, so I have been trying the RL 15 loads in the 400. I like it better in the 400 too.

I have chosen 71.5gr of RL 15 for both 400 gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids for Africa this Oct.

I can tell a big difference in barrel heat between RL 15 and IMR 4831.

I do not necessarily recommend shooting Barnes X bullets in a double.

the 450/400 3" is a 40kpsi round (DUDE!)

I set quickload at 35k, with 24" and got OVER 2150 with 24" barrels.

21" barrels AT 40k report 2175ish

24 at full pressure report 2250-2280


I have a "pressure barrel" if anyone wants to test in a bolt gun... need a 1.25" straight barrel, threaded for an enfield, and a reamer... (and of course reloading stuff) and we can work out loads to your hearts content, in a thrash bolt gun, never risking your double, and can at least test these loads out prior to putting into a double

jeffe

Bulldog,

Kynoch currently list the 450/400 3" as 2125fps out of a 30" barrel on their website. This would be with the current Kynoch ammo, and not neccesarily what the cordite or axite ammo would have developed.

They do list the 450/400 3 1/4" as 2150 out of a 26" barrel on there website.

Reloading for my rifle, which may not be typical since it is in a modern cartridge, I have found that different powders will provide loads which shoot to the sights, in regulation, at different velocities even with the same bullet. For example, IMR 3031 provides a load that shoots the 500gr Woodleighs to the sights, in regulation, at about 2030fps. H 4895 shoots the same bullet to the sights, in regulation, up around 2200fps; AA 2230 again at 2140fps.

Some powders provide better consistency and accuracy, or a better, cleaner burn. Some, like, AA 2230, provide good velocity at low, relative, pressures. There are a couple out there for you to try in 450/400.

JPK

Jeffeoso,

The testing that Greame Wright has done with modern powders shows that, in general, modern powders produce equal velocity at less pressure than the cordite or axite loads of the original NE loads.

The "problem" for the shooter of vintage DR's is that often their rifles shoot well with modern loads at pressures well below cordite presures and at the cordite velocities. They are unable to utilize even the pressures that the guns were built for since the greater velocity for pressure available with modern powders can play havoc with acuracy.

This doesn't apply to the shooter of a modern DR, who can have his rifle regulated for a load that is below the std pressure for the cartridge but which will provide greater velocity than the original loadings. Makes the rifle a one off though, since commercially available ammo will likely shoot poorly. Not an issue, imo, but I would have the load the rifle was regulated with engraved on it somewhere!

JPK

With the exception of the .450/.400 3 1/4", .500/.450, .450 No. 2, and the .475 No. 2 Eley, none of the flanged nitros ever saw 2150 fps in the field, as standard ballistics were developed in longer barrels than those ususally fitted to sporting rifles. As has been established as fact here at AR, bullets from all of the others bounced off dangerous game and got untold numbers of hapless hunters killed.

The standard for the .400 Jeffery was 2125 fps in 30" barrels. It was never listed at 2150. In my chronographing of late run Cordite, the .450/.400 3" was good for 2060 to 2070 fps from 26" barrels. I've done very little with 24" barrels, but 2040 is a reasonable expectation. The .400 Jeffery made it's legend with this standard and did it with ordinary nickel jacketed round nose solids to boot, as there were no steel jacketed solids offered until well after WWII, let alone monos.

IF, with today's propellants, standard velocity, as adjusted for barrel length, can be achieved at lower pressure than was possible with Cordite (and it may not be, as Hornady is currently discovering) then the advantage to modern shooters is the ability to keep their rifles on face that much longer, not to increase velocity to unneeded levels.

I well remember Ray Atkinson posting about his loads for "Sweet Thang", his 24" .400 Jeffery, which featured 400 grain bullets over an insane charge of RL 15 for 2150 fps - at least 100 fps too fast. I also recall that he stated that this rifle needed rejointing every 300 to 500 rounds. Well, ! Any decent double that needs rejointing that often is being brutally abused. Keeping the pressure low is much more valuable than an extra 50 fps in velocity. I don't buy the "modern" bullshit either. In my observation, the new rifles seem to come off-face faster than the old ones did.

If you're a velocity freak, stay with the 26" barrels. On a double, 26" barrels ARE short. 24" are just plain silly - they're like putting a 2" barrel on a .44 Magnum Model 29 Smith. Nothing is gained in handling (it actually suffers) or portability and you lose velocity. Have it regulated with current Kynoch. If you need more velocity, use the .375 barrels - that's why you're buying them, isn't it?
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

My normal hunting load for my 400 was 81 grains of IMR 4831, but I never chronoed it.
81 grains shot good, as did 83, both shot better than 82 do I used 81 as it was lower pressure.
On moth of my British guns they have regulated within a grain or two of the "standard" conversion formulas. The 450 No2 also shot very well with IMR 3031.
I started low and worked up until the rifle shot good and to the sights.
RL 15 seems to kick less and give less pressure.


In my 450 No2 I got the following results.

IMR 3031:
81 gr 500 Hornady Soft 2053fps
80 gr 500 Hornady old style Solid 2065fps.
81 gr 480 Woodliegh Soft 2080fps
81 gr 350 Hornady Soft 2314 fps
80gr 405 Remington Soft 2172fps
60 gr 405 Remington Soft 1805 fps
60gr 300 remington HP 1878fps.


With IMR 4831

100gr 500gr Hornady Soft 2015fps.

I went as high as 103 grains with little change in velocity, so I used 100 grains.

RL 15
The only loads I have checked are
89 gr 450 North Fork Flat poing Solid 2205fps
90gr 450 NFFP 2240fps.

My rifle likes 98 grains best.
With the 480 Woodleigh Soft and Solid, the Hornady 500 Soft and old style Solid, and the Swift A Frame I use 88 gr of RL 15 with all of them.

I will try and chrono those loads one of these days as they have done excellent on eland [woodleigh and swift softs] cape buffalo [woodleigh and swift softs and woodleigh solids] giraffe [NF CUP and FP solids] and elephant [woodleigh solids and NF FP solids].

My 450 No2 is a 75 grain Cordite gun, and has 28" bbls.
All loads including IMR 4831 use filler. Some were with poly and others with foam filler. All of my RL 15 loads, both doubles have been with foam filler.

400 NE,

I believe that the velocity difference between, say, 2025 and 2100fps is really critical for elephants, at least with the .458" bullets in 480gr or 500gr. I extend that believe to .408, .411. 416 and .423 400 or 410gr bullets as well, since all share pretty similar SD's. I think that the return for velocity above 2100fps, and certainly 2150fps, is not nearly so critical with these bullets.

Try reading Graeme Wright's 2nd edition, which contains more pressure test data. Every load with modern powders tested well below cordite or axite pressures (or black powder or NFB loads too) when velocity and accuracy were the same or very similar, some loads were far below.

No reason not to use all of the pressure the cartridge was designed for, in a rifle designed to handle the pressure. This will probably cause regulation issues with a vintage rifle, but not with a rifle regulated to shoot the same pressure loads, but with modern powders, that the vintage rifle was regulated to shoot. The only difference will be that the modern rifle will shoot those equal pressure loads, using modern powders, at higher velocity.

If some modern double rifles shoot loose in fewer rounds than some vintage rifles, so what. The rifle likely only cost a fraction of the inflation adjusted cost of the vintage rifle, and a small fraction of what it would cost to build today, with labor rates much higher today, even adjusted for inflation. You know as well as I do that it isn't a difficult or expensive job to rejoint a double rifle, and easier and less expensive today at that. I'd bet that many, if not most, of the older rifles saw a rejointing or two.

Some veiw a double rifle as a peice of history or art, and some double rifles are just that. But first they are tools to be used for the killing of the game they were intended to be used to kill. No reason to hold back on what the tool is capable of just to save wear and tear on the tool. Better to use it to its full potential and repair it as needed, just as intended by the maker. Loading a double rifle to the original pressure its cartridge produced is just using it to the fullest of one of its performance capabilities.

BTW, I'd bet that if Hornaday is having pressure issues it is with shooting .411" bullets in .408" barrels. I doubt that they will introduce ammo for the 450/400 that will cause liability issues if someone shoots it in a .408" bore.

Also, I have 750 rounds though my Thys 458wm double and it is showing no problems, either with jointing or ejection and extraction. I had some loads pressure tested and they are high by double rifle standards, but low to midlin' by 458wm standards. By the end of Oct, if all goes as expected, I will have killed ten elephants with a rifle that is not suposed to work.

JPK

My 450 No2 might be getting 2100 to 2150 with 480 Woodleigh Solids.
I once shot a bull elephant at 120 yards.
One of the shots broke his leg, exited, hit his trunk, and went completely through it.
I then brained him at about 60 yards.
The bullet completely penetrated his brain cavity.
What do ya'll figure the velocity was at 60 yards??? Say 1950 or so???
The 450/400 3" tropical load was around 1950 or so. I have never heard a complaint about its effectiveness in all the "old" stuff I have read.

450 NE No2,

Interpolating from the Kynoch website, which shows a muzzle velocity at 2175 and 50yd velocity at 2038 (differnce of about 135fps) I'm guessing that your 480gr Woodleigh was doing about 2000fps.

But why settle for 50yd performance at the muzzle when you don't have to? BTW, due to cordites temperature sensative nature, even the tropical load was probably broaching 2025 in the heat.

JPK

JPK the desiding factor for me was how the double hit at 100 yards.
I found that 89 grains with the 480/500 gr. bullets hit a little low. By dropping the load to 88 grains I raised the point of impact to hit with the sights.

480 Woodleigh Softs and 500 Swift A Frames have expanded and penetrated perfectly on eland [2] and cape buff [2].

After two trips to Africa, killing 4 elephants, 2 cape buff, a giraffe, wildebeast, and an eland, I would not hesitate to go to Jurassic Park with my 450 No2.
Expansion of Woodleigh Softs and Swift A Frames has been excellent.
Woodleigh Solids and North Fork Solids have performed perfect.

From 6 yards to 188 yards my 450 No2 is the HAMMER OF THOR.

PS, I have handled your 458 Thys, it is a good thing you found that double before I did, as I have a "little" bit of 458 ammo, and I like your double, and would have no problem taking it to Jurassic Park.

NE 450 No2,

I think I have caused some confusion, and appologize for it.

My comment about "why settle for 50yd performance at the muzzle..." was not meant to be taken regarding your 450 NE No2 and the proven track record it has in your hands and the track record of the round in Africa.

I meant why not regulate a new 450/400 rifle at the service pressure for the original ammo which with modern powders will provide velocities greater than the original cordite loadings at the same pressure.

You have convinced me to leave my rifle as a 458wm, for some really valid reasons, but I gotta say that I wish it were one of the .458" NE rounds, like yours. We will both be in Jurrasic Park East (Zim) shortly. Our rifles have essentially the same ballistics and your excellent experience with your 450 NE No2 is very nice to keep in mind.

JPK

JPK
I agree
I think if I was having a new 450/400
I would have it regulated with a charge of RL15 that would give me 2150.

I do not know how much that would be in the 3" case as mine is a 3 1/4" but 71.5 gr of RL15 does it in my 400.

The perfect solution would be to do accuracy and velocity work on the double before the final regulation. Thus you could pick your load based on individual barrel groups and know the velocity. Then do final regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The perfect solution would be to do accuracy and velocity work on the double before the final regulation. Thus you could pick your load based on individual barrel groups and know the velocity. Then do final regulation.

.........And, my friends, that is the way it is done even if the load is already known!