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Are you sure about that? Doesn't look much like a Westley Richards to me. It looks like a Holland Royal IMO. | |||
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I'm quite sure your opinion is correct! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I have only so far tried doublerifles with extractors. I am very pleased with just that. Being a fan of the old time guns, a hammerrifle, with jones underlever and extractors can loaded/uloaded very silent and safe. The unnderlever also have much more leverage than a toplever, and much stronger too. I`LL take an extractor double at any time  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I much prefer extractors, especially in newer guns..With extractors the weight of the barrels lets the gun fall open, I twist the gun over and the emptys fall out. Its fast enough for me. I have seen so many happy hunters with extractors breaking the gun open over their knee, and once during a buffalo charge!  I have tried both and I'll stick with extractors. It also saves looking all over the high grass for your brass that you invaribly loose in that stuff. It's a personal thing, you have the option. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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:::SIGH::: rhetorical question, but what do you have when an ejector breaks? and extractor perhaps? This is a Ginger v Mary Ann exegesis with no right or wrong answer with one caveat: ejectors are faster than extractors and to believe otherwise is delusional. One more parting profundity: extractors came first then ejectors. There's a lesson there somewhere... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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And get a good following tracker to pick them up. Somehow in the melee of shooting this year, I lost a couple of Bell cases - but that can be expected. I assume they were picked up but one of the trackers forgot to give them to me. I prefer the ejectors myself, but I have limited experience in the matter. | |||
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Bwanna to keep from loosing the brass with ejectors, break the rifle with the chambers pointed at your belly or chest. The cases will hit you and drop to the ground at your feet, this also deadens the "PING" of the cases flying through the air! Folks it is not a big thing, which you prefer, but none-the-less one action is always better, under certain circumstances, than the alternative. No matter what it is, there are two sides to every coin, and both sides of that coin have consequences depending on which you choose at times! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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5seventy, check out the thread titled QUESTION?????????????????? on this forum! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Well, My recent experience with an elephant convinced me that ejectors are the only way for me. When I doubled, I had absolutely no idea that I had done so. If I had extractors, I would have plucked the right empty out as I approached my tusker and replaced only it. In my mind I would have two barrels ready for action. In reality I would have had but one. That both empties flew over my right shoulder allowed me to have two fresh solids at the ready. That might not be reason enough for others but it is enough for me. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I like for all of Sam's rifles to have Ejectors! Yep, that's correct, strong ones too! I love to see Sam's eyes pop  as I let those big expensive cases fly through the air, over my shoulder, on their way to bouncing on the concrete floor in the range! HEH HEH..... Then watching him shake his head in disgust, a few cuss words directed my way as he runs to pick it up, but the damage is already done! HEH HEH....  Now he has learned it's still kinda fun as he stands behind me with a baseball glove to catch them!  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Didn't he make a special hat with a net on top for you to wear? NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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This happened with my third Elephant. I had just brained a Tuskless and amongst the initial confusion and noise given her another shot in the heart. Now with the loaned three round Remington 416 down to the last round and the herd now looking around for trouble I was in no position to reload the noisy bolt action rifle. This is where an extractor Double would have been great or at least a five round bolt Rifle. | |||
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You didn't die? Huh. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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This resurfaces all the time. No one has any credibility in their comments unless they have been in a (real) charge with two empties in the chambers and in a panic to reload, at least once with ejectors and at least once with extractors. Anyone? Since hardly anyone, much less the dumb shits, ever gets killed elephant hunting, ejectors or extractors doesn't seem to matter much. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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HEH.... I am quite sure I would be killed for sure if I had a double with ejectors! True! No doubt about it! I have gotten so much pleasure out of watching those big cases fly over my right shoulder I have no doubt that is what I would be watching as the elephant hit me, you know you do in the field what you do on the range! LOL............ I must never ever ever buy a double rifle! http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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No but I was quiet as a mouse for way too long. Even for me.. | |||
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Use both types with similar speed but have experienced a full on charge with extractors "only" so I guess that counts me out. | |||
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Michael is right you do in the field as you do at the range. I can just see Michael looking for the bolt handle on a double when the stuff hits the fan. I'll never forget one time while deer hunting shooting a running deer across a field. I was shooting my 1895 Marlin which was my only real hunting gun at the time. I fired three times really fast and ok missed! I went to pick up my expensive brass and could not find it. I looked and looked. Just could not find it. About an hour later I reached into my pocket to get some change and there were my three cases. When target shooting I would always reach around with my left hand as I was ejecting my cases to catch the brass. I would then drop them into my pocket. On my first buffalo I was screamed at for picking up my brass, bad habit. I like doing just as Michael now and letting someone else see those big cases flying over my shoulder as I reload. I just hate seeing my cases hitting that concrete floor. Maybe I'll get Michael some carpet for Christmas. I love ejectors and would prefer them to extractors. Just don't get in the habit of catching them like a skeet shooter. LET THEM FLY! Sam | |||
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Extractor DR are useless. I have only to see on the market and there are more and more manufacturers offering again ejectors because the extractor only rifle are hard to sell for that amount. I would not have bought the Merkel without ejetors. Then I would have gone for the Heym. What you not spend on the inicial costs to buy an ejector gun will make a nonvaleur out of your DR. But anyway most African rifles never see Africa at all and for the shooting range the exrector is case friendly. For a range gun the better choice, less parts which can break. | |||
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Like Biebs said,buy a suitable caliber,make sure the gun fits you well and shoot shoot shoot! I have had both ejector and extractor guns,they both worked fine,I recently finished a hunt in Zim with a buddy,both of us shot 470's,one ejector the other extractor,they both worked just fine,I would not have any problems buying a gun with either of the two systems. DRSS | |||
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Peter I know you are trying to make a point here,but what you are doing is confusing points given in earlier posts on the subject that you evidently disagree with. The ejectors riding over is in regard to RIMLESS cartridges, and having to push the rounds in one at a time till the tiny pawl snaps over the rim into the extractor groove causing a slow loading. This does not apply to flanged cartridges,the only type to be chambered in a double rifle used for hunting gangerous game. If the spring breaks on an ejector hammer you are still left with an extractor on thet barrel as long as it is chambered for a flanged cartridge it can still be flipped out. With this you are still left with a working double rifle. I have zero problem with selective ejectors on a DG double rifle,but there are two things I will not have on a DG double and they are a single trigger, and a chambering of a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge. As I said, I have big bore doubles fitted with, and without ejectors, and I don't find ejectors more than slightly faster than extractors. I can live with either, and do live with both. However the only double you will find in my hands with a single trigger and/or chambered for a rimless or belted rimless cartridge will be a deer rifle and will stay at home when dangerous game is in the bush where I'm hunting. .....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I have a totally different point of view on the subject..I HATE THOSE FRIGGEN EJECTORS...I hate seeing some dumb so and so trying to get his double open after he shoots both shots..An extractor gun will fall open with the weight of the barrels after you shoot it..or maybe my doubles are worn out!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I wouldn't own one without them, then again, I'm new at this, but I tell you what, given all things equal, I'd like to see an extractor beat ejectors on the reload... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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 Hey Ray hows it going up there in Filer?I think you have it backwards! The double rifle re-cocks the tumblers on opening, while the ejectors are cocked on closing! Ejectors can not be cocked on opening because that is when the ejector hammers are tripped to eject the empties, and are re-cocked on closing! The best thing about extractors is the rifle very quiet for removing the emties, and is closed very quietly and easily, not haveing the "CLICKS caused by re-cocking the ejector hammers! ................What-cha-thank? ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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With the proper technique, which is very easily learned, there are a lot of guys that could give that test a good run. If you come to DSC this year, maybe we can hook up for a little shooting on one of the local ranges. I'll bring my rifles as I have one with extractors and one with ejectors. I really don't see much difference in speed between the two. I do like the silent reload with the extractors however. I think that quality far outweighs the "possible" nanosecond difference in reload time. And I do mean nanosecond. Anyway, I wouldn't mind doing some shooting with a fellow Naval Aviator! | |||
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I'd love to do that! matter of fact, we just booked or flights. We arrive Wed leave Monday. Beat Army! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Let's stay in touch then and try to meet up. There are a couple of ranges we can go to that aren't too far away. Hopefully, we'll have some decent weather for shooting. | |||
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Hey Mac, That was not my point and I don't doubt your expertise on doubles..But all my doubles with extractors fell open after the shots and closed easy on closing..The ejector guns did not, but they guns were new Searcys and tight, but when I took out the ejectors to Butchs dismay they worked slicker n snot. The pressure behind those extractors in foot pounds is awesome, I forgot the number but if you ever have one get loose and hit your finger while removing or installing them you will know of which I speak. I nearly lost a finger doing that, but it eventually healed up.. Jorge, I never said I was faster with extractors than I am with ejectors!! but for the record I am probably pretty close. You can break the gun flip it over and have two in it by the time it comes back to battery..Those low pressure double rounds just fall out and never get sticky, but on a timer I would probably lose..I don't think reloading under todays safari conditions is much of a deal..Probably was in the days of elephant hunters alone in the bush. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Roger we'll stay in touch, I'll PM you my cell so at least we can meet up at DSC. Ray, you are probably right, I guess I just like the cool factor of the "piiiing!" USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Ray that's strange! Maybe it has something to do with your rifle having longer barrels, and a little weaker tumbler springs letting the extra barrel weight help with the opening, and the timing a little off on the ejector springs holding a little pressure on the ejector hammers when relaxed, The ejector springs are not normally compressed on opening, and are cocked on closing.  Jorge, it is fact that ejectors are faster in ejecting the empties, and what Ray is saying is, a man who can work an extractor double with a fast re-load can overcome that difference over others with ejectors! Of course all is for naught if at the end with either the shooter misses with the next two shots. So ejectors or extractors matters not which you have if the rest of the reload and the accuracy is off! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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 That made me laugh. It seems like if you have a couple of doubles and bearers handing them to you then you WOULD want ejectors, and train the bearer to run 10-15 feet to the side before breaking the gun? Red | |||
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I've read this with interest and whilst never having shot dangerous game I do have experience of ejector and extractor double guns. What is fact is that unless it is a Boss type system (that AFAIK is not used on any double rifle) an ejector if it breaks down will NOT extract a cartridge as far out of the breech as will an extractor. Indeed the worst type of cartrdge to get out of a side by side gun is that in an ejector gun where the ejector spring has broken. The argument about simply inverting an extractor gun to dump the cartridges does have validity, nevertheless it cannot be as fast as an ejector gun used by a skilled and dextrous user. As a skilled and dextrous user will very quickly take his hand away from the gun and search out his reloads whilst the extractor man is inverting his gun. Equally the real "fast shots" will hold two spare cartridges between the the fingers of the left hand whilst shooting so that as soon as the gun is broken and the cartridges ejected they can reload. You cannot do this with an extractor gun as you need all the fingers of that left hand to pick out the empty cases. The other quick reload with an ejector is having a loader standing next to you who, as soon as you break the gun, HE NOT YOU RELOADS THE GUN. That is you don't take a hand off it as your loader whilst you still hold it loads it. Indeed you can almost match the speed, at driven shooting, of the man who has two guns and a loader by this method. But on the other hand a well set up, reliable, ejector gun is a joy...but a poorly set up and unreliable ejector gun is AWFUL! But, as another said, with a reliable ejector if you do "double" and fire the two barrels by error and don't realise it at least you will know it when you open the gun as both cases will be thrown out. | |||
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Actually, you can. Very easily. Just takes a little practice. It's not very hard to learn the proper technique. There is NO "picking out the empty cases" involved. Whenever I hear someone speak of pulling brass out of a double rifle with extractors and speed of reloading in the same sentence, I know immediately that they are unfamiliar with extractor guns (rifles) and how they work. Pulling spent cases happens only in double shotguns or when reloading a rifle after firing only 1 barrel and if you are reloading only 1 barrel, you are not in a speed reloading situation. I guarantee you that 2 rounds can be held in the hand while flipping the spent cases out. If really interested in seeing the technique, here is the link to my elephant hunting video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzTm3PzBzIw&NR=1 . I didn't hold the 2 reserve cartridges in that situation as I didn't think it would be necessary. And it wasn't. The camera missed the case dumping after the 1st and 2nd shots but if you listen carefully, you can hear the cases being dumped and the new cartridges going in. Pay attention to the time from when you hear the 2nd shot until you hear the cases hit the ground, the new rounds go in, the action shut, and the safety applied. This reload came from the belt as well. After the 3rd and 4th are fired, you can see me empty the gun and get a better idea of the technique used with extractors. I think you'll be surprised how fast the technique is if you have only visualized it from the "pulling brass" perspective like is done with shotguns. I empty the gun this way EVERY time I fire both barrels in order to make it a muscle memory thing. As the trigger hand pushes the top lever, the rifle is spun 180 degrees so that when it opens, the barrels are up and the rifle has been spun to where the triggers are toward your body and the sights are pointed away from the body. The cases not only slide out, which they would do without resistance, but if done properly, will actually be slung out by the rotation of the gun. This technique is easy to learn and takes only a little practice for anyone to become proficient with. | |||
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I don't have a double rifle, but I've had a passle of single shot and double bbl shotguns, and rifles...some with ejectors and some with extractors. What Ray said is just about what happens when I'm in the middle of a covey of quail or flight of dove. You're just popping the guns open and rolling them quickly and the cases just fly out...I guess...I don't really see because my eyes are one the game and I'm loading by "feel"...It happens quickly, I hardly think about it and the gun is up on another bird without much thought. Not much different with single shot 22's and popping rabbits except the thump. Come to think about it, it's the same with any rifle I shoot. I keep my eyes on the game, load by feel, keep the mag topped off and have extra rounds either between my fingers, on my wrist, on the gun butt or in a loose pocket. Someone needs to make a video of the whole action sequence with both types of extraction...sure would make things easier. Luck | |||
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There is a video of extractors at work in the post just prior to yours! | |||
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endfieldspares, Todd is right, as I too suspect your expertise is with double barreled shotguns and that is a zebra of a different stripe all together. The rolling over a double rifle to dump the empties works very quickly and effeciently, and it is not limited to the re-loading of both barrels. I is not necessary to pull the empty from the rifle when only one barrel has been fired either. This can be done by simply place the left hand thumb over the live round and dump the empty the same way you dump both. One of the things that causes a slow re-loading of a double rifle with or without ejectors is re-loading from a belt or other carrier where the loading hand must be taken away from the rifle's breech area. A two or four cartridge holder on the back of the trigger hand or on the wrist of the trigger hand so the left hand only needs a single movement to pull two rounds from the back of the trigger hand between the thumb and forefinger of the left hand and drop them in the chambers simeltainously as in the picture at the bottom of my post here. The only difference between extractors and ejectors is the ejectors get the empties out of the chambers faster, the re-loading of the double rifle chambers, closeing the rifle and getting back on target for the next two shots is the whole thing, and a guy who knows what he is doing can be lightening fast and accurate as well for the next two shots regardless which system he is useing at any time. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Enfield has hit upon the elegant solution: a matched pair of double rifles and a bearer/loader.  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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If this was in 1920 that would be the norm, at a time when one could shoot elephant till the herd ran away! Today one is lucky to fire more than one or two shots on elephant in a safari! Folks what you need to do is learn to re-load your double quickly, and shoot till the animal is down or out of sight! Nothing else is needed. If you can't work a double rifle efficiently there is always a bolt trash for a lot less money! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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OUCH!! The truth, as they say, HURTS! And if you can't shoot a big bore, there is always the "Scoped 375"!  PS: All intended humor applies! | |||
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