Alf,

I do think third fasteners are a plus. But, there have been many fine rifles built without a third fastener. Butch builds his rifles out af materials unavailable to any rifle maker 100 years ago. He has enough rifles out there, and some with lots of use, to prove that his rifles work well without any third fastener.

And really, when it comes to any DR, the question of rejointing isn't a question of whether it will be nesseccary, but when. It is no big deal, whether you're talking about a 100 year old rifle with plenty of use or a newer one with plenty of use. Plenty of "original" Brit rifles have seen a good rejointing which, if done well, leaves little or no trace.

As for my Thys with the third fastener, well, it probably will last longer between rejointings because of it. But he probably built the rifle with it because it is a high pressure rifle!

JPK

Alf, I enjoyed your visit at SCI last yr. Be sure and look me up in 07. I will most likely be in the same booth, unless some high roller donates allot of money and pushes me back again.
Now, the quotes I used from Burrard was made because the old guns are always what is used as references when making comparisons here on this forum. Also the technolgy today with regard to top extension are the same mechnically today. If one thinks of a new mechanical idea for a double, you know that the Brits and Germans have already done it.
I without reservation, know that my action flex's when fired, but it does it so minutely that it doesn't cause a problem. The experiment with the soldering of a thin sheet of steel would be futile and prove nothing to me, and wouldn't cause me to install a top extension. Basically, because if my rifles get 6000 or more rounds thru them, whats the point.
I'm in the process of building a rifle with the Bissell risizing bite. I'd like to know what yours and others thoughts are on this type of top extension. And rate it comparred to others.
Okey, I've got to get to work. Take Care All

Christopher Austyn (Head of the Sporting Gun Department at Christie's from 1981 - 2002, now head of Bonham's Sporting Gun Department) has this to say about third bit fasterners in his book CLASSIC SPORTING RIFLES,

Chapter 1, CONTEMPORARY CHARACTERISTICS OF BEST RIFLES, page 13;

"-The second characteristic involves the addition of an extension from the breech-ends of the barrels into the action-face to further strengthen the jointing of the barells and prevent their movement away from the action. Top extensions have, with the exception of heavy-actioned best guns, usually been associated with second or third grade guns but in rifles, where greater strengthening of the action is requierd, they are found in all grades. In a best rifle the exctension is usually concealed just below the top of the action face, with the extension itself appearing from between the extractors on the barells. Stylistically, this is more appealing, as large doll's-head extensions of the type associated with Webley proprietary actions such as the 'screw grip' can be rather unsightly. As I have said, extensions of the latter type tend to denote a more routine quality. With this point in mind it is worth remembering, however, that makers such as Greener were fierce exponents of top-extensions of a variety of types and these will be found on Greener's best guns.
Side-clips on the fences of the action face will have a further beneficial effect in preventing any sideways play of the barells. Needless to say, the actioning of a best rifle is the most time-consuming and expensive part of the rifle-making procedure."

Christopher Austyn has most probably handled more BEST quality double rifles than all of us toghether.

Husky

I would prefer a 3rd bite/fastener and side clips than a double without just as a mauser M98 with 3rd safety lug is the best bolt. I think the 3's have it!

Steve

Husky,

Christopher Austyn is discussing the common atributes of best quality rifles, not nessecarily the atributes of rifles which will provide years and years of excellent service. The two subsets are not entirely overlapping.

And while he points out that Greener will have extensions on all guns including his best guns, it ain't nessecarily so. I have a pair of relatively rare Greener best sidelocks and they don't have extensions.

JPK

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quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Husky,

Christopher Austyn is discussing the common atributes of best quality rifles, not nessecarily the atributes of rifles which will provide years and years of excellent service. The two subsets are not entirely overlapping.
JPK

JPK,
My humble opinion is the opposite!
A best gun is a gun that is made better, last longer (generations) and gives the owners during the decades excellent service. Else they wouldn't be called BEST guns!

But this is just my own humble opinion.

Husky

Well guys, on my Model 24 Savage........

Husky,

I think you misunderstood my post. Let me try again.

One would hope that all best quality rifles will last and last. That all of the additional cost to make a best gun isn't spent on just unnessecary to the task frill and that extra attention to design, fit and perhaps materials will make the rifle functionally better. I beleive this to be generally true and that a best rifle will likely be functionally better including its longevity. Most but not all best rifles feature third fasteners.

But there are many rifles which don't fall within the best rifle circle which have given, or will give, excellent service. Many of these feature third fasteners and many don't.

So imagine the set of all best rifles, think of it as a cirle. Imagine the large majority of these best rilfes fall within another circle which contains rifles which have given or will give excellent service. This second circle will contain many rifles which fall outside of the best quality subset which give excellent service. Plenty of these rifles will have given excellent service without third fasteners.

So again, since many rifles which aren't best rifles have given excellent service, and many of these lack features of best rifles; it is clear that Christopher Austyn is describing features of best rifles and not nessecarily features of all rifles which will give excellent service.

Alf,

You support well your arguement that 50 or 100 year old rifles should have third fasterners.

JPK

If I knew how to edit my most recent post I would add that when it does comes time to rejoint a rifle, best quality or not, it is no big deal. It is neither expensive or risky and all but a non issue anyway.

JPK

JPK, see the little book, pencle and erasor, at the bottom right hand corner of your post? Just click on that book, and you post will pop up and you can change anything in that post, by simply deleteing anything you want, and re-writeing it! Then send, editing done

Mac,

Thank you!

And I hope and pray that all goes well for you with your Chemo and that it licks it. FWIW, my mom was operated on for lung cancer and then six months later for brain cancer. They couldn't get it all and gave her six months with Chemo. That was seven years ago this past Christmas. She is cancer free and still going strong.

Best,

JPK

Butch:

I agree with you that the purpose of a top extension is to prevent the barrels from torqueing from side to side. In my original post on this string, I said the purpose was to keep the barrels square to the face and pin, which is the same thing. No, it doesn't prevent the barrels from hingeing open slightly on firing, but it does prevent lateral torqueing. It seems to me that this would help to keep the gun on face a bit longer. I recently saw a Chapuis (double hooks, but no extension) that was badly off face. This was a .375 H&H/20 bore two barrel set. A dime would almost fit between the barrels and standing breech with both sets. Also, neither set was still square on the pins - the gap was significantly wider on the right side. I think rib extensions really help.

As to third fasteners, you mentioned that you were working on a rifle with the Rigby-Bissell Rising Bite. I had heard that before, and was curious as to why? Just prior to WWI, Rigby abandoned the Rising Bite (expensive to fit and ineffective) in favor of the better Webley & Brain Screw-Grip third fastener. Rigby's subsequent Best Sidelock DRs, and their lesser quality DRs as well, were screw grips. So much for all best rifles having the "hidden" type. Many British best DRs were built with other types of rib extensions and third fasteners. The screw grip was the best third fastener type ever devised, why not experiment with it instead? With the exception of A&S Famars, I don't know of anyone else using it today. It would make a fine option on the Classic.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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